| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. 11:42 - Jan 20 with 34381 views | BrixtonBlue |
They say the universe started with a big bang... but you can't have something just appearing out of nothing. Therefore, the universe can't have a beginning - and yet must do (because it exists). A paradox.
Similarly, if the universe is expanding (like they say it is), what is it expanding into? And whatever that is, what is on the other side of THAT? Therefore, the universe must go on forever... and yet can't do (everything has an end or edge). Another paradox.
Both of these paradoxes suggest the universe shouldn't exist. Its existence doesn't make sense.
Well surely then, the only logical conclusion is that it DOESN'T exist?!
It's either a figment of our imagination... or a purposely created virtual reality?
I appreciate this last bit isn't a new idea (The Matrix) - but how else do you explain the two paradoxes?
I hope someone can answer soon as I'm off to the Royal Observatory at Greenwich to watch a couple of shows about space and I don't want it to be a waste of time! |  |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 12:55 - Jan 21 with 4697 views | Herbivore |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 12:54 - Jan 21 by Oldsmoker |
I get your point Ryorry - you could include Scientology as well.
But I did say "major" and perhaps I should have inserted the word "organised" as well because that would leave just 8.
Atheism, Humaism are not really organised are they? |
Shintoism too maybe? |  |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 12:56 - Jan 21 with 4712 views | StirlingArcher |
But was the Big Bang Vegan? |  | | |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 12:57 - Jan 21 with 4709 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 12:32 - Jan 21 by StokieBlue |
Before gravity was understood things still stayed rooted to the ground. People might have said it was supernatural but as we know now it was just lack of knowledge.
There is nothing that would allow the one to draw the conclusion that anything supernatural is going on in this case.
SB |
Yeah. Depends on your definition of supernatural I guess... which can change over time.
That existence exists, whatever the explanation, is supernatural to me. But I take your point about gravity. Although we know what it is, we don't know WHY gravity happens do we? It's still weird - and, if you like, supernatural.
As mentioned in the OP, I went to the Royal Observatory at Greenwich yesterday (first time I've ever been, though have been meaning to go for ages). Very good - saw two shows, £8 each, lying back and looking up at the dome with the films projected onto it. Wish they were longer (half an hour each) but well worth the money anyway. We also came out at dusk, to be greeted by a very bright full moon, almost as if that had been laid on as part of our ticket too! | |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 13:43 - Jan 21 with 4688 views | sparks |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 12:49 - Jan 21 by Oxford_Blue |
Atheism is the absence of a belief (by definition) in theism.
It works on the logical premise that the starting point is not that everything infinitely coneceivable exists until it is proven not to exist; but that only that for which there is at least reasonable evidence should be taken to exist. |
Quite. Atheism is plainly not a religion on any analysis. Nor is humanism. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 13:45 - Jan 21 with 4683 views | chicoazul |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 13:43 - Jan 21 by sparks |
Quite. Atheism is plainly not a religion on any analysis. Nor is humanism. |
No, they're just beliefs. |  |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 13:46 - Jan 21 with 4680 views | sparks |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 12:57 - Jan 21 by BrixtonBlue |
Yeah. Depends on your definition of supernatural I guess... which can change over time.
That existence exists, whatever the explanation, is supernatural to me. But I take your point about gravity. Although we know what it is, we don't know WHY gravity happens do we? It's still weird - and, if you like, supernatural.
As mentioned in the OP, I went to the Royal Observatory at Greenwich yesterday (first time I've ever been, though have been meaning to go for ages). Very good - saw two shows, £8 each, lying back and looking up at the dome with the films projected onto it. Wish they were longer (half an hour each) but well worth the money anyway. We also came out at dusk, to be greeted by a very bright full moon, almost as if that had been laid on as part of our ticket too! |
You cant equate unknown with supernatural. Just muddies the waters and allows theists to slip their beliefs in through the back door as being rationally valid. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 13:47 - Jan 21 with 4659 views | Herbivore |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 13:45 - Jan 21 by chicoazul |
No, they're just beliefs. |
This has been done before, atheism isn't a belief. | |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 13:49 - Jan 21 with 4672 views | footers |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 13:47 - Jan 21 by Herbivore |
This has been done before, atheism isn't a belief. |
The clue is in the name 'without belief'. It's not anti-religion or a counterargument. |  |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:04 - Jan 21 with 4645 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 12:54 - Jan 21 by MJallday |
i could explain it but you wouldn't understand so im just going to say "Magic" |
Patronising, much? | |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:08 - Jan 21 with 4637 views | StokieBlue |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 12:57 - Jan 21 by BrixtonBlue |
Yeah. Depends on your definition of supernatural I guess... which can change over time.
That existence exists, whatever the explanation, is supernatural to me. But I take your point about gravity. Although we know what it is, we don't know WHY gravity happens do we? It's still weird - and, if you like, supernatural.
As mentioned in the OP, I went to the Royal Observatory at Greenwich yesterday (first time I've ever been, though have been meaning to go for ages). Very good - saw two shows, £8 each, lying back and looking up at the dome with the films projected onto it. Wish they were longer (half an hour each) but well worth the money anyway. We also came out at dusk, to be greeted by a very bright full moon, almost as if that had been laid on as part of our ticket too! |
“That existence exists, whatever the explanation, is supernatural to me. But I take your point about gravity. Although we know what it is, we don't know WHY gravity happens do we? It's still weird - and, if you like, supernatural. “
This depends on what exactly you mean. We know from general relativity that gravity is caused by the curvature of spacetime due to mass (ie. the Sun causes a curvature of spacetime which then affects the orbits of the planets etc). There is an issue with resolving general relativity with quantum mechanics (as there often is) but there is a theorised graviton which would allow reconciliation they just haven’t found the it, possibly the energies at CERN aren’t high enough.
I've had a membership at the Greenwich Museums for 2 years, the planetarium is excellent and always a favourite - glad you enjoyed it.
SB [Post edited 21 Jan 2019 14:09]
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:12 - Jan 21 with 4626 views | Deano69 |
The growing Universe is easily explained. Its exactly like the Scooby Doo background, eventually everything travelling in it will pass round again
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:13 - Jan 21 with 4622 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:12 - Jan 21 by Deano69 |
The growing Universe is easily explained. Its exactly like the Scooby Doo background, eventually everything travelling in it will pass round again
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Haha. | |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:31 - Jan 21 with 4608 views | Oxford_Blue |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 13:45 - Jan 21 by chicoazul |
No, they're just beliefs. |
No, atheism is an absence of belief in theism.
It follows the logical premise that you believe something exists only for which there is good evidence.
Presumably you wouldn’t say that being an “a-fairyist” or an “a-unicornist” is a belief that they don’t exist. The presumption is they don’t exist. |  | | |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:38 - Jan 21 with 4603 views | chicoazul |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:31 - Jan 21 by Oxford_Blue |
No, atheism is an absence of belief in theism.
It follows the logical premise that you believe something exists only for which there is good evidence.
Presumably you wouldn’t say that being an “a-fairyist” or an “a-unicornist” is a belief that they don’t exist. The presumption is they don’t exist. |
Exactly, thank you. Atheism is a belief. Same as Christianity Islam Humanism Hinduism etc
Why do you have such a problem with this simple fact? Oh wait... | |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:43 - Jan 21 with 4595 views | Oxford_Blue |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:38 - Jan 21 by chicoazul |
Exactly, thank you. Atheism is a belief. Same as Christianity Islam Humanism Hinduism etc
Why do you have such a problem with this simple fact? Oh wait... |
I don’t think you’re getting it.
Being an atheist is defined as having an absence of belief in theism. That’s what the word means. It simply isn’t a belief system in itself.
The evidential burden is on the person who makes a claim that god (or anything else) exists. Until that burden has been met, the rational position is to not have belief in the claim - ie an absence of belief.
Otherwise, it is is illogical to assume everything exists until proven otherwise, which would be required for the presumption to be that atheists hold a belief. They don’t. They have an absence of a belief. | | | |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:45 - Jan 21 with 4588 views | chicoazul |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:43 - Jan 21 by Oxford_Blue |
I don’t think you’re getting it.
Being an atheist is defined as having an absence of belief in theism. That’s what the word means. It simply isn’t a belief system in itself.
The evidential burden is on the person who makes a claim that god (or anything else) exists. Until that burden has been met, the rational position is to not have belief in the claim - ie an absence of belief.
Otherwise, it is is illogical to assume everything exists until proven otherwise, which would be required for the presumption to be that atheists hold a belief. They don’t. They have an absence of a belief. |
Ahhh, you're an accidental Agnostic. A commonly held misconception by people who think themselves atheists. Good for you, it's the only sensible sane rationale. | |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 15:01 - Jan 21 with 4560 views | eireblue |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:45 - Jan 21 by chicoazul |
Ahhh, you're an accidental Agnostic. A commonly held misconception by people who think themselves atheists. Good for you, it's the only sensible sane rationale. |
Nah, that’s what you believe about him. |  | | |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 15:24 - Jan 21 with 4541 views | jjblue84 |
Funny how a discussion about the origins of the universe always ends up talking about God...keeping thinking about it!!  |  | | |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 15:35 - Jan 21 with 4533 views | Oxford_Blue |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:45 - Jan 21 by chicoazul |
Ahhh, you're an accidental Agnostic. A commonly held misconception by people who think themselves atheists. Good for you, it's the only sensible sane rationale. |
Agnosticism is whether it is not possible to weigh up the evidence either way.
With religion and god, the evidence is so poor that the rational view is to be an atheist.
As with unicorns and the Easter bunny, it is not possible to prove a negative and it is not possible to prove that the Easter bunny doesn’t exist. But if someone said they were agnostic about the Easter bunny or unicorns that would be regarded as irrational. The rational view is to say “they don’t exist”.
So too with god. | | | |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 17:30 - Jan 21 with 4497 views | sparks |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 14:38 - Jan 21 by chicoazul |
Exactly, thank you. Atheism is a belief. Same as Christianity Islam Humanism Hinduism etc
Why do you have such a problem with this simple fact? Oh wait... |
Err no- its the absence of a belief. Its a very simple idea to get to grips with. Try it... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:13 - Jan 21 with 4464 views | Ryorry |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 15:35 - Jan 21 by Oxford_Blue |
Agnosticism is whether it is not possible to weigh up the evidence either way.
With religion and god, the evidence is so poor that the rational view is to be an atheist.
As with unicorns and the Easter bunny, it is not possible to prove a negative and it is not possible to prove that the Easter bunny doesn’t exist. But if someone said they were agnostic about the Easter bunny or unicorns that would be regarded as irrational. The rational view is to say “they don’t exist”.
So too with god. |
OK, I get the bit about atheism. But what would you call a belief that there is a god - one called nature - ie a belief in the sheer wondrous complexity of our natural world, which has somehow evolved by chance despite all the odds being against it - just the right distance from the sun, just enough of the right kind of chemicals to create the right kind of atmosphere, water, minerals etc to support life, that created the drive to procreate etc etc etc? Would that be agnosticism? Interested as it's my position! |  |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:24 - Jan 21 with 4459 views | sparks |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:13 - Jan 21 by Ryorry |
OK, I get the bit about atheism. But what would you call a belief that there is a god - one called nature - ie a belief in the sheer wondrous complexity of our natural world, which has somehow evolved by chance despite all the odds being against it - just the right distance from the sun, just enough of the right kind of chemicals to create the right kind of atmosphere, water, minerals etc to support life, that created the drive to procreate etc etc etc? Would that be agnosticism? Interested as it's my position! |
I think you are muddying the waters by calling nature "god". If you call it nature, and revel in it then thats just great- and says nothing about belief in what people usual consider "god" at all.
I dont think we can say that we evolved despite all the odds- we dont know what the odds are. If we weren't in the right place for us to thrive then we wouldnt be here (though something else, adapted differnetly might be...)- and in millions or billions of other star systems, which are not perfect, we (or things like us) probably dont exist.
It reminds me of the Douglas Adams puddle. The puddle looks around and realises the world around fits it perfectly. The hole its in is the perfect shape and size to hold the puddle- so it assumes the hole was made specifically for its benefit...
We dont gain much from the semantic discussion of terms- whats important is what people's actual beliefs are imo. However, the way I (and many atheists) use the terms is this:
A theist is someone who believes in a personal god (i.e. one who is interested in the world and people in it). An atheist rejects that belief. Some atheists would go as far as to say that they believe there is no god, many simply say they do not believe there is.
Agnosticism is about knowledge. One can believe something without claiming to know it. You can have an agnostic theist- someone who believes in god but does claim to "know" its true. You can have an agnostic atheist- one who rejects the belief but doesnt claim absolute knowledge or certainty. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:27 - Jan 21 with 4452 views | BloomBlue |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 15:35 - Jan 21 by Oxford_Blue |
Agnosticism is whether it is not possible to weigh up the evidence either way.
With religion and god, the evidence is so poor that the rational view is to be an atheist.
As with unicorns and the Easter bunny, it is not possible to prove a negative and it is not possible to prove that the Easter bunny doesn’t exist. But if someone said they were agnostic about the Easter bunny or unicorns that would be regarded as irrational. The rational view is to say “they don’t exist”.
So too with god. |
But what evidence do we truly have about the theory of the creation of the universe? Similar to earth theories, but nobody has strong evidence about how the earth went from no water to having vast quantities of water.
To have true evidence scientist need to create an ocean without using water. |  | | |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:28 - Jan 21 with 4448 views | Herbivore |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:13 - Jan 21 by Ryorry |
OK, I get the bit about atheism. But what would you call a belief that there is a god - one called nature - ie a belief in the sheer wondrous complexity of our natural world, which has somehow evolved by chance despite all the odds being against it - just the right distance from the sun, just enough of the right kind of chemicals to create the right kind of atmosphere, water, minerals etc to support life, that created the drive to procreate etc etc etc? Would that be agnosticism? Interested as it's my position! |
That's kind of a form of paganism. | |
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| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:28 - Jan 21 with 4450 views | sparks |
| Science bods... can you help? I think I've solved the mystery of the universe. on 19:27 - Jan 21 by BloomBlue |
But what evidence do we truly have about the theory of the creation of the universe? Similar to earth theories, but nobody has strong evidence about how the earth went from no water to having vast quantities of water.
To have true evidence scientist need to create an ocean without using water. |
What has that got to do with it?
Equally though, you are just wrong. There is lots of evidence. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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