| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? 09:01 - Aug 28 with 30340 views | ElderGrizzly |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 20:57 - Aug 28 with 3624 views | Herbivore |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 20:56 - Aug 28 by Trequartista |
I accept that is not quite the same as "most votes wins" so am happy to retract that part. However the fundamental point remains that you are treating all the options with equal weight, whereas I am saying that the more leave options you add, the more you are splitting the vote in favour of remain, so if there are two leave options we could end up remaining in the eu even though 66% choose a leave option and 34% choose a remain option.
To me, it is debateable whether remain should be on the ballot paper. It is not a second referendum, it is a referendum for which leave option we should choose, a clarification of the first referendum. However I don't believe we should be prevented from deciding to change our minds so remain can be on there as long it gains >50%.
A deal may have been "promised" by certain politicians but it wasn't on the ballot paper. We cannot reverse election results if manifestos are not 100% adhered too so the same applies here. [Post edited 28 Aug 2019 20:56]
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You are definitely trolling me now. I've explained this so clearly and you're still pretending to not get it and still misrepresenting my position. [Post edited 28 Aug 2019 20:58]
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:00 - Aug 28 with 3616 views | StochesStotasBlewe |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 20:53 - Aug 28 by Herbivore |
It needs to be a defined leave option that will be enacted. There's no point in a remain versus undefined leave vote again. If it's remain versus a defined leave option and that option wins then it should be enacted. I'll continue to be against it as is my right in a democratic country, but it should be enacted. |
Thank you. Agree. That is a reasonable & sensible approach.
Would like to think our supposed political "elite" from across the spectrum could do the same. We wont be holding our collective breath though. |  |
| We have no village green, or a shop.
It's very, very quiet.
I can walk to the pub. |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:03 - Aug 28 with 3606 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 20:56 - Aug 28 by Trequartista |
I accept that is not quite the same as "most votes wins" so am happy to retract that part. However the fundamental point remains that you are treating all the options with equal weight, whereas I am saying that the more leave options you add, the more you are splitting the vote in favour of remain, so if there are two leave options we could end up remaining in the eu even though 66% choose a leave option and 34% choose a remain option.
To me, it is debateable whether remain should be on the ballot paper. It is not a second referendum, it is a referendum for which leave option we should choose, a clarification of the first referendum. However I don't believe we should be prevented from deciding to change our minds so remain can be on there as long it gains >50%.
A deal may have been "promised" by certain politicians but it wasn't on the ballot paper. We cannot reverse election results if manifestos are not 100% adhered too so the same applies here. [Post edited 28 Aug 2019 20:56]
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"We cannot reverse election results if manifestos are not 100% adhered too so the same applies here."
So we are not reversing the advisory referendum result if we completely ignore it, or if we say 52% is not a clear enough majority to change anything regardless of the "promises" of a PM who couldn't face enacting it. |  |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:11 - Aug 28 with 3601 views | Trequartista |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 20:50 - Aug 28 by Herbivore |
I'm not sure how much more simply I can explain it but here goes.
Under your suggestion a split of 49.9% remain, 25.1% no deal Brexit, and 25% May's deal - the only deal currently on the table - leads to a no deal Brexit despite only 25.1% if the voting public wanting it. That's not very democratic. If only 1% of those who voted for May's deal would prefer remaining to no deal you instantly have a majority that favours remain over no deal. So you need a preference system where people put a first and second choice and then when the least popular option is eliminated you then coin the second preference votes of those voters to get a majority outcome. |
You've just repeated your position. Just because I don't agree with it, how does that prove i don't understand it? I don't agree with a preference system, I want to know what people want, not what their order of preferences is. I don't believe the scenario below is less democratic than a result where we remain in the eu despite <50% of people wanting to leave, in successive referendums. |  |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:13 - Aug 28 with 3595 views | Trequartista |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 20:57 - Aug 28 by Herbivore |
You are definitely trolling me now. I've explained this so clearly and you're still pretending to not get it and still misrepresenting my position. [Post edited 28 Aug 2019 20:58]
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I honestly have absolutely no idea how you can come to that conclusion. I am merely disagreeing with your position, not misunderstanding it. | |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:15 - Aug 28 with 3592 views | Trequartista |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:03 - Aug 28 by Nthsuffolkblue |
"We cannot reverse election results if manifestos are not 100% adhered too so the same applies here."
So we are not reversing the advisory referendum result if we completely ignore it, or if we say 52% is not a clear enough majority to change anything regardless of the "promises" of a PM who couldn't face enacting it. |
Well personally i disagree with referendums entirely, but I don't think going down the road of it being technically advisory is something to unite the nation! | |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:17 - Aug 28 with 3584 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:15 - Aug 28 by Trequartista |
Well personally i disagree with referendums entirely, but I don't think going down the road of it being technically advisory is something to unite the nation! |
Ah, unite the nation!
How does anyone manage to do that?
We have around 33% want to leave with no deal and let the poor die;
around 33% want to remain;
and around 33% without a clue what they want and hoping some form of compromise can be reached. | |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:19 - Aug 28 with 3581 views | Herbivore |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:11 - Aug 28 by Trequartista |
You've just repeated your position. Just because I don't agree with it, how does that prove i don't understand it? I don't agree with a preference system, I want to know what people want, not what their order of preferences is. I don't believe the scenario below is less democratic than a result where we remain in the eu despite <50% of people wanting to leave, in successive referendums. |
Christ alive. Well done, you got a bite. You must be very proud. | |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:38 - Aug 28 with 3567 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 20:11 - Aug 28 by GlasgowBlue |
You seem to be pinning your hopes on a man who voted to leave in 1975, voted against the both the Lisbon Treaty and the Maastricht Treaty and has been campaigning for Brexit since before that particular portmanteau was thought of. |
Jesus, that leave vote was more than 40 years ago, Maastricht was nearly 30 years ago and even Lisbon was 12 years ago.
Maybe things have changed. Maybe he's seen how damaging Brexit would be. |  |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:45 - Aug 28 with 3558 views | StochesStotasBlewe |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:38 - Aug 28 by BrixtonBlue |
Jesus, that leave vote was more than 40 years ago, Maastricht was nearly 30 years ago and even Lisbon was 12 years ago.
Maybe things have changed. Maybe he's seen how damaging Brexit would be. |
He could, of course, just be a political opportunist like all the others. | |
| We have no village green, or a shop.
It's very, very quiet.
I can walk to the pub. |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:56 - Aug 28 with 3530 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:45 - Aug 28 by StochesStotasBlewe |
He could, of course, just be a political opportunist like all the others. |
Indeed.
This is the nature of politics. You don't have to agree to him having met Gerry Adams in 1980whatever to accept his leadership of temporary government with sole purpose of bringing about a confirmatory referendum, do you?
But that is part of the problem at the moment, isn't it? Unless you agree 100% with every part of the party's policies, you have to start your own party or go independent or campaign against the leader until their position is so undermined there is hardly a party left. | |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:58 - Aug 28 with 3527 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:45 - Aug 28 by StochesStotasBlewe |
He could, of course, just be a political opportunist like all the others. |
I mean, you could be right, but given he had the lowest expenses of any MP during the expenses scandal, and the fact that he's supported a lot of unpopular things during his years in politics, he doesn't seem to be a political opportunist. | |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 22:02 - Aug 28 with 3512 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:58 - Aug 28 by BrixtonBlue |
I mean, you could be right, but given he had the lowest expenses of any MP during the expenses scandal, and the fact that he's supported a lot of unpopular things during his years in politics, he doesn't seem to be a political opportunist. |
Can you explain the connection between expenses and political opportunist. |  |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 22:12 - Aug 28 with 3499 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 22:02 - Aug 28 by Pinewoodblue |
Can you explain the connection between expenses and political opportunist. |
Yeah it was a bit tenuous - but he wasn't an opportunist there (when he could've been, like so many others), in a political realm. I put that there more to show that, on that occasion at least, he's been shown to be a decent, honest chap (for a politician).
Doesn't mean he's still decent and honest of course, but it's a decent indication. And if Glassers can cite his voting record from over 40 years ago, then I think I can have that one. | |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 22:12 - Aug 28 with 3496 views | StochesStotasBlewe |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 21:58 - Aug 28 by BrixtonBlue |
I mean, you could be right, but given he had the lowest expenses of any MP during the expenses scandal, and the fact that he's supported a lot of unpopular things during his years in politics, he doesn't seem to be a political opportunist. |
Fair points.
I don,t particularly dislike or like Mr Corbyn to be honest.
I do, however think he is being manipulated by McDonnell, Milne & others in the background to further their own aims. That is only my opinion & not based on any "evidence" so to speak.
It just seems to me he is being a tad used as the face of Labour, the mouthpiece if you like, and not saying what he really believes.
I would be intrigued to see what his views were today if he was still on the backbenches. | |
| We have no village green, or a shop.
It's very, very quiet.
I can walk to the pub. |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 22:14 - Aug 28 with 3494 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 19:27 - Aug 28 by GlasgowBlue |
Come on lads, we've had six pages of civil debate over a subject that has the potential to cause those with opposing views to fall out with each other.
Let's keep the civility going. |
I think Hugh Grant couldn’t quite hear you. He has a point...
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 22:14 - Aug 28 with 3491 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 22:12 - Aug 28 by StochesStotasBlewe |
Fair points.
I don,t particularly dislike or like Mr Corbyn to be honest.
I do, however think he is being manipulated by McDonnell, Milne & others in the background to further their own aims. That is only my opinion & not based on any "evidence" so to speak.
It just seems to me he is being a tad used as the face of Labour, the mouthpiece if you like, and not saying what he really believes.
I would be intrigued to see what his views were today if he was still on the backbenches. |
Yep, fairy nuff. | |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 22:51 - Aug 28 with 3458 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 22:12 - Aug 28 by StochesStotasBlewe |
Fair points.
I don,t particularly dislike or like Mr Corbyn to be honest.
I do, however think he is being manipulated by McDonnell, Milne & others in the background to further their own aims. That is only my opinion & not based on any "evidence" so to speak.
It just seems to me he is being a tad used as the face of Labour, the mouthpiece if you like, and not saying what he really believes.
I would be intrigued to see what his views were today if he was still on the backbenches. |
McDonnell is very much remain and him and Corbyn have been drifting apart for a few years from a policy perspective.
It’s best described as a marriage of convenience I guess. McDonnell wants power and Corbyn is his best chance of getting it in years | | | |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 00:00 - Aug 29 with 3435 views | vapour_trail |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 22:14 - Aug 28 by ElderGrizzly |
I think Hugh Grant couldn’t quite hear you. He has a point...
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Hugh Grant is a Boris sized tvvat.
Whoever was talking about Gerry Adams had much more credibility. |  |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 07:51 - Aug 29 with 3344 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 22:14 - Aug 28 by ElderGrizzly |
I think Hugh Grant couldn’t quite hear you. He has a point...
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I’m sure the rantings of a posh Millionaire luvvie will play well with the average Brexit voter living in a high rise in Sunderland. What a gift to people like Farage. [Post edited 29 Aug 2019 7:53]
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 08:07 - Aug 29 with 3323 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 07:51 - Aug 29 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m sure the rantings of a posh Millionaire luvvie will play well with the average Brexit voter living in a high rise in Sunderland. What a gift to people like Farage. [Post edited 29 Aug 2019 7:53]
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Are people with money not allowed an opinion? | |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 08:11 - Aug 29 with 3316 views | m14_blue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 07:51 - Aug 29 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m sure the rantings of a posh Millionaire luvvie will play well with the average Brexit voter living in a high rise in Sunderland. What a gift to people like Farage. [Post edited 29 Aug 2019 7:53]
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They seem happy enough to listen to posh millionaires like Boris, Farage and JRM? |  | | |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 08:12 - Aug 29 with 3314 views | eireblue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 07:51 - Aug 29 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m sure the rantings of a posh Millionaire luvvie will play well with the average Brexit voter living in a high rise in Sunderland. What a gift to people like Farage. [Post edited 29 Aug 2019 7:53]
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Boris? |  | | |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 08:14 - Aug 29 with 3309 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 08:07 - Aug 29 by BrixtonBlue |
Are people with money not allowed an opinion? |
Where did I say that they aren’t? | |
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| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 08:21 - Aug 29 with 3302 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Liz to be asked to Prorogue parliament today? on 08:11 - Aug 29 by m14_blue |
They seem happy enough to listen to posh millionaires like Boris, Farage and JRM? |
That’s because Boris, Farage and JRM aren’t a bunch of posh tw@ts from London who are part of a movement trying to steal the only thing they have ever bothered to vote for.
*if you read my post I was talking about perception.
** see also in the states how a billionaire businessman can convince working class Americans that he is anti establishment and on their side. [Post edited 29 Aug 2019 8:23]
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