| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:03 - Sep 6 with 2764 views | nodge_blue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 16:50 - Sep 6 by Herbivore |
How is it an attack on democracy? You keep repeating this but I've not seen you actually put forward an argument that backs up the idea that these protests represent an attack on democracy. Murdoch's influence on UK politics through his media empire represents an attack on democracy, XR blocking some roads doesn't seem to. |
Ok...look...Im starting to get a little fatigued with the thread now.
I think ive made a bunch of balanced posts, with some facts behind them.
But for the sake of answering you, stopping the publication of ANY newspaper is a denial of that paper having a voice. It starts to become akin to States stopping certain views being raised such as we see in Russia.
Newspapers have never been not political as far as I can remember. They tend to have a view and an editorial that represents that view.
The same applies to newspapers such as the Guardian, or the Mirror as well.
Every paper should be allowed to be heard and hold views as long as they aren't illegal or offensive.
The fact that Murdoch has bought many newspapers is a concern. But arguably those newpapers (except the Times) were of the middle to right wing persuasion to start with.
Stopping views being presented is immoral and undemocratic. Surely that is obvious?
I would complain just as much if right wing people stopped the guardian being published. [Post edited 6 Sep 2020 17:09]
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:10 - Sep 6 with 2747 views | Herbivore |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:03 - Sep 6 by nodge_blue |
Ok...look...Im starting to get a little fatigued with the thread now.
I think ive made a bunch of balanced posts, with some facts behind them.
But for the sake of answering you, stopping the publication of ANY newspaper is a denial of that paper having a voice. It starts to become akin to States stopping certain views being raised such as we see in Russia.
Newspapers have never been not political as far as I can remember. They tend to have a view and an editorial that represents that view.
The same applies to newspapers such as the Guardian, or the Mirror as well.
Every paper should be allowed to be heard and hold views as long as they aren't illegal or offensive.
The fact that Murdoch has bought many newspapers is a concern. But arguably those newpapers (except the Times) were of the middle to right wing persuasion to start with.
Stopping views being presented is immoral and undemocratic. Surely that is obvious?
I would complain just as much if right wing people stopped the guardian being published. [Post edited 6 Sep 2020 17:09]
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They aren't stopping the press having a voice. They aren't the government, they can't censor the press. All of Murdoch's publications continued to put forth their views online, some physical newspapers just ended up being delivered late. I fail to see how that equates to attacking or preventing individuals' rights to participate in the political process. I don't think you can really argue that it does. Claiming that it's obvious is a poor substitute for a decent argument. [Post edited 6 Sep 2020 17:43]
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:12 - Sep 6 with 2739 views | Ryorry |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 14:33 - Sep 6 by nodge_blue |
I will take your remark in a non defensive way and say my head isn't in the sand. i can see we play a role and yes we import many goods made using other countries C02.
But ultimately as the table of CO2 producing countries shows we are looking at China, Russia, USA, India as huge producers. On a scale that probably out numbers the rest of the world put together. If they don't cut their emissions by 50% or more we have no chance.
And these countries led by Putin / Trump (currently) are basically climate change deniers. Add in countries like Brazil that are literally burning down the rain forests to create space to graze cows.
I mean what chance have we got? And to spray white paint out of fire engines, stopping tubes running or stop the press being printed as justification for addressing climate change is just a waste of time. A "helluva statement" would be impacting China.
Im dealing with it in my own way as Ive said before in this thread. Im not pushing it away like it doesn't exist. Im doing things in my life to make some difference.
Sadly I don't think we can stop climate change now. We can only marginally reduce its impact. [Post edited 6 Sep 2020 14:40]
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For the third time, the Murdoch news empire that we are discussing ER's action against, has been a big influencer in both the USA and India.
As you've twice ignored my references specifically addressing those countries you've mentioned 2 or 3 times, it does seem to me that you're choosing to stick your head in the sand I'm afraid. |  |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:23 - Sep 6 with 2732 views | nodge_blue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:10 - Sep 6 by Herbivore |
They aren't stopping the press having a voice. They aren't the government, they can't censor the press. All of Murdoch's publications continued to put forth their views online, some physical newspapers just ended up being delivered late. I fail to see how that equates to attacking or preventing individuals' rights to participate in the political process. I don't think you can really argue that it does. Claiming that it's obvious is a poor substitute for a decent argument. [Post edited 6 Sep 2020 17:43]
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Its a step on the way.
And actually every political party denounced it as such yesterday.
Emily Thornbury questioned what the protest would achieve and said the construction of barricades was very worrying and wrong.
And I assume you know which party she represents.
So thats most people in the political spectrum saying its fairly obvious. | |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:24 - Sep 6 with 2729 views | nodge_blue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:12 - Sep 6 by Ryorry |
For the third time, the Murdoch news empire that we are discussing ER's action against, has been a big influencer in both the USA and India.
As you've twice ignored my references specifically addressing those countries you've mentioned 2 or 3 times, it does seem to me that you're choosing to stick your head in the sand I'm afraid. |
Fair enough, I haven't read your links yet. I will do at some time. | |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:24 - Sep 6 with 2725 views | Ryorry |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 14:46 - Sep 6 by nodge_blue |
You think all those Brazilian farmers are sitting there thinking "christ i'd better stop burning the rain forest down because all those people in Britain didn't get their copy of the daily mail"?
You think the free market and the behaviour of China, Russia, USA and Brazil is going to stop?
Seriously? |
You have repeatedly, continuously been avoiding the point that so many people have made - so much so that I can only conclude it's deliberate on your part.
Your complaint is about ER stopping the Murdoch papers from getting to readers saying that that's somehow censorship - it isn't, it was for one day which most readers can catch up with online anyway.
You've said that action by ER does nothing to affect the much bigger problem in other countries such as India and the USA, when I've pointed out several times that their climate-denying news empire has been very active in those countries. Several other people have pointed out we trade with China, NZ etc, so the UK can be a big influencer there.
You don't think we can do anything further about climate change - please man (or woman) up! Together, ordinary individuals can effect big changes (see posts re Greenham Common etc).
Edit: posted before seeing your 17.24 post, which obv crossed with mine. [Post edited 6 Sep 2020 17:32]
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:29 - Sep 6 with 2722 views | nodge_blue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:24 - Sep 6 by Ryorry |
You have repeatedly, continuously been avoiding the point that so many people have made - so much so that I can only conclude it's deliberate on your part.
Your complaint is about ER stopping the Murdoch papers from getting to readers saying that that's somehow censorship - it isn't, it was for one day which most readers can catch up with online anyway.
You've said that action by ER does nothing to affect the much bigger problem in other countries such as India and the USA, when I've pointed out several times that their climate-denying news empire has been very active in those countries. Several other people have pointed out we trade with China, NZ etc, so the UK can be a big influencer there.
You don't think we can do anything further about climate change - please man (or woman) up! Together, ordinary individuals can effect big changes (see posts re Greenham Common etc).
Edit: posted before seeing your 17.24 post, which obv crossed with mine. [Post edited 6 Sep 2020 17:32]
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And you have been fair in your views.
I think Ive made all the points I going to now.
Ultimately I don't think we will get those countries to change. Not a snow balls chance in hell. And XR protesting and disrupting in this country will achieve nothing except a push back from the right.
Peace and love.
COYB | |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:45 - Sep 6 with 2698 views | Ryorry |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:29 - Sep 6 by nodge_blue |
And you have been fair in your views.
I think Ive made all the points I going to now.
Ultimately I don't think we will get those countries to change. Not a snow balls chance in hell. And XR protesting and disrupting in this country will achieve nothing except a push back from the right.
Peace and love.
COYB |
Can I just mention btw re your page 4 point on world population growth, that this is now set to decline. There was even a BBCR4 feature recently which concluded that the UK will struggle for enough young people to care for our over 80s population in a few year's time.
https://www.anthropocenemagazine.org/2020/07/the-human-population-curve-is-on-th | |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:46 - Sep 6 with 2697 views | Herbivore |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:23 - Sep 6 by nodge_blue |
Its a step on the way.
And actually every political party denounced it as such yesterday.
Emily Thornbury questioned what the protest would achieve and said the construction of barricades was very worrying and wrong.
And I assume you know which party she represents.
So thats most people in the political spectrum saying its fairly obvious. |
You still haven't offered a cogent argument for how non-violent protest by citizens against Murdoch's publications constitutes an attack on individuals' rights to participate in the political process. I don't much care what Emily Thornberry said, if she was on this thread claiming that protests are an attack on democracy then I'd be challenging her to provide a cogent argument to support that position in the same way I'm challenging you to do so. | |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:51 - Sep 6 with 2692 views | nodge_blue |
Just when I thought I was out.....they drag me back in.
(what film is that from?)
I think scientist do think we may have peaked in world population growth. And countries like Japan already do struggle with an elderly population like you say the UK will.
But in contrast 50% of Indias i billion (ish) are under 25.
But the point is thats still 5 billion more people than when I was born all consuming energy and creating CO2.
Its very hard to control environmental factors when we have a world population like that. | |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:53 - Sep 6 with 2684 views | nodge_blue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:46 - Sep 6 by Herbivore |
You still haven't offered a cogent argument for how non-violent protest by citizens against Murdoch's publications constitutes an attack on individuals' rights to participate in the political process. I don't much care what Emily Thornberry said, if she was on this thread claiming that protests are an attack on democracy then I'd be challenging her to provide a cogent argument to support that position in the same way I'm challenging you to do so. |
Peace and love.
COYB | |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 18:02 - Sep 6 with 2661 views | Herbivore |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:53 - Sep 6 by nodge_blue |
Peace and love.
COYB |
And to you too. | |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:02 - Sep 6 with 2619 views | hampstead_blue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 13:50 - Sep 6 by monytowbray |
Why is it all your posts are full of statements of a personal opinion but never any evidence to back it up?
I really do try with you but I think you’re a lost cause in a part of society history won’t talk kindly of.
Read up on climate change. Do some research. 98% of scientists telling us we have a huge problem on our hands should be enough to sway anyone. You are being manipulated by the “free” press. |
My statement that XR want to regress society is true.
They would reduce air travel, car travel, and pretty much anything that emits any type of emissions. Ban meat as a food source. As such we would pretty much have to walk everywhere living off turnip gruel.
My posts are full of my opinions because this is a forum. It's a place to share, debate and exercise an opinion. I don't need evidence to support an opinion, it's an opinion.
I'm reading a very good book on climate change thank-you. It's so good, I'm re-reading just a couple of weeks after finishing it.
The world is going to end in 50 years? I'd like to see how that is back-up. Please share that with us.
If that's the type of statement XR are hanging their hats on then they are what I think they are, hard left cranks. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:02 - Sep 6 with 2620 views | Bluespeed225 |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 08:46 - Sep 5 by EdwardStone |
Protest has a long and honourable history in changing the minds of both public and politicians. I see the disruption as an essential part of our evolution as a society
I used to live in Newbury, Berks in the 1980s.....just down the hill from Greenham Common. The letters page of the local paper was rammed full of the kind of sentiment that you are putting forward, decrying the disruption that the protest caused. One such letter contained the memorable phrase "At least Cruise is clean "
The protestors carried on regardless and their efforts resulted in Cruise missiles being withdrawn and Greenham Common being returned to its rightful purpose of recreational space for the people of Newbury to take air and exercise |
and moved them to Bentwaters ? There seemed to be a thought that the GC protest was a good decoy while they plonked them somewhere else. |  | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:23 - Sep 6 with 2598 views | J2BLUE |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:02 - Sep 6 by hampstead_blue |
My statement that XR want to regress society is true.
They would reduce air travel, car travel, and pretty much anything that emits any type of emissions. Ban meat as a food source. As such we would pretty much have to walk everywhere living off turnip gruel.
My posts are full of my opinions because this is a forum. It's a place to share, debate and exercise an opinion. I don't need evidence to support an opinion, it's an opinion.
I'm reading a very good book on climate change thank-you. It's so good, I'm re-reading just a couple of weeks after finishing it.
The world is going to end in 50 years? I'd like to see how that is back-up. Please share that with us.
If that's the type of statement XR are hanging their hats on then they are what I think they are, hard left cranks. |
My statement that XR want to regress society is true.
No it's BS. Look at Greta. She's not staying in Sweden and being an activist on Zoom. She was recently in the US being driven around in an electric car. That's what you're missing. It's not about dialing society back a few hundred years. It's about investing in the technology which will allow us to continue to live the lives we lead whilst not contributing to climate change. Electric cars, renewable energy, lab grown meat*, technologies which remove carbon from the air etc etc. Stop looking for reasons to ignore reality and start embracing what you can do. You've mentioned your kids on here right? What about their kids? And their grandchildren? What about future generations of Hampsteads?
*maybe, I admit I don't know how much better this is for the environment but it's a possibility |  |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 20:05 - Sep 6 with 2569 views | eireblue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:02 - Sep 6 by hampstead_blue |
My statement that XR want to regress society is true.
They would reduce air travel, car travel, and pretty much anything that emits any type of emissions. Ban meat as a food source. As such we would pretty much have to walk everywhere living off turnip gruel.
My posts are full of my opinions because this is a forum. It's a place to share, debate and exercise an opinion. I don't need evidence to support an opinion, it's an opinion.
I'm reading a very good book on climate change thank-you. It's so good, I'm re-reading just a couple of weeks after finishing it.
The world is going to end in 50 years? I'd like to see how that is back-up. Please share that with us.
If that's the type of statement XR are hanging their hats on then they are what I think they are, hard left cranks. |
Can yo show us a report on climate change, that suggest things will be fine in 50 years.
What do you think of one of the projected consequences, that insects may die out by the next century? Hard to grow food without pollinators.
What is the lead time you are working with by the way. This is not like replacing a football manager.
In 50 years time, you can’t just say, oops looks like people were correct, let’s fix it now.
Some climate change scientists are predicting that the effects of the current energy injected into the climate system will have consequences for next century or two.
Over what time period were you thinking the next 50 years of warming would have an effect?
What are your top 3 recipes for Turnip gruel? |  | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 20:41 - Sep 6 with 2544 views | hampstead_blue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 20:05 - Sep 6 by eireblue |
Can yo show us a report on climate change, that suggest things will be fine in 50 years.
What do you think of one of the projected consequences, that insects may die out by the next century? Hard to grow food without pollinators.
What is the lead time you are working with by the way. This is not like replacing a football manager.
In 50 years time, you can’t just say, oops looks like people were correct, let’s fix it now.
Some climate change scientists are predicting that the effects of the current energy injected into the climate system will have consequences for next century or two.
Over what time period were you thinking the next 50 years of warming would have an effect?
What are your top 3 recipes for Turnip gruel? |
I was quoted the "fact" that the world will end in 50 years. This was offered by a poster earlier.
I find that impossible.
I'm simply trying to dial out hysteria. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 20:52 - Sep 6 with 2526 views | eireblue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 20:41 - Sep 6 by hampstead_blue |
I was quoted the "fact" that the world will end in 50 years. This was offered by a poster earlier.
I find that impossible.
I'm simply trying to dial out hysteria. |
I thought you liked science.
“Finding” something to be impossible, is just feels vs reals.
If pollinators die out, those turnip recipes will be vital.
Is there any climate science that you agree with that suggests humans should not be worried about the next 50 years?
Do you think that want happens after the next 50 years is that predictable, should, the current projections for the next half century materialise, e.g. a third of species are lost, over seven hundred million refugees, rising sea levels, smaller habitable land mass.
If all that happens, do you think it will be somehow easier to fix the problems at that point?
Please share with us the consensus non-radical left wing science and mechanisms that will prevent such a disaster?
If you don’t have any, I suggest you start working out those recipes for your children and grand children. | | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 21:48 - Sep 6 with 2490 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 19:02 - Sep 6 by hampstead_blue |
My statement that XR want to regress society is true.
They would reduce air travel, car travel, and pretty much anything that emits any type of emissions. Ban meat as a food source. As such we would pretty much have to walk everywhere living off turnip gruel.
My posts are full of my opinions because this is a forum. It's a place to share, debate and exercise an opinion. I don't need evidence to support an opinion, it's an opinion.
I'm reading a very good book on climate change thank-you. It's so good, I'm re-reading just a couple of weeks after finishing it.
The world is going to end in 50 years? I'd like to see how that is back-up. Please share that with us.
If that's the type of statement XR are hanging their hats on then they are what I think they are, hard left cranks. |
Something’s got to give. We can’t carry on the way we’re going and even now changes are being forced on us, such as a large growth in reduced speed limits on major roads because localised emissions are adversely impacting health.
It doesn’t necessarily have to mean a decline in travel if we can accelerate technological solutions either. Although there’s also an argument that we could do with slowing down a bit. Stress, mental health issues and fragmentation of families/communities is the worse it’s ever been. Why be a sales rep doing 40,000 miles a year 5 days a week away from home when you could spend 4 of those days working from home in video calls? Or why ship food half way round the world when we produce our own (e.g. NZ lamb)? Etc., etc.
It is the biggest problem facing us after all. Should be taken seriously and addressed. Comments about not getting other countries to change only ring true as long as there isn’t concerted international pressure and efforts to reach a consensus to support emerging countries in their development needs. XR dare to dream that we can make the changes we need. I hope they’re right. |  |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 00:04 - Sep 7 with 2456 views | monytowbray |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 20:41 - Sep 6 by hampstead_blue |
I was quoted the "fact" that the world will end in 50 years. This was offered by a poster earlier.
I find that impossible.
I'm simply trying to dial out hysteria. |
This is your issue Hamster.
I did not say the world would end in 50 years. I said in 50 years we could be facing extinction on a dying planet. That’s the scariest thing about climate danger, we’ll know it’s too late to do anything long before we die off. What do you think will happen to society on a planet where short term survival becomes the only priority for everyone? When there is no future to bother working towards anymore?
Let me tell you, the roof over your head and the food on your table now won’t be enough to protect you. And the current governments of the world know this, as so the rich people influencing them. That’s exactly why they don’t want us thinking about it nor XR telling the truth about it.
But yes, there may (and almost certainly will at this rate) be a point in the next 50 years where the rot is too deep and we can’t prevent it. We’re already in the dying windows of damage control as it is. Wake up my dude. |  |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 10:13 - Sep 7 with 2366 views | hampstead_blue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 20:52 - Sep 6 by eireblue |
I thought you liked science.
“Finding” something to be impossible, is just feels vs reals.
If pollinators die out, those turnip recipes will be vital.
Is there any climate science that you agree with that suggests humans should not be worried about the next 50 years?
Do you think that want happens after the next 50 years is that predictable, should, the current projections for the next half century materialise, e.g. a third of species are lost, over seven hundred million refugees, rising sea levels, smaller habitable land mass.
If all that happens, do you think it will be somehow easier to fix the problems at that point?
Please share with us the consensus non-radical left wing science and mechanisms that will prevent such a disaster?
If you don’t have any, I suggest you start working out those recipes for your children and grand children. |
I made the point that I wanted to dial out hysteria and this is your reply.
At no point have I denied the problem so calm down and try and get past the froth . | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 11:25 - Sep 7 with 2326 views | eireblue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 10:13 - Sep 7 by hampstead_blue |
I made the point that I wanted to dial out hysteria and this is your reply.
At no point have I denied the problem so calm down and try and get past the froth . |
None of that is hysteria.
All of the things I have mentioned are reported in scientific papers.
Please share the description of the problem that you agree with, and the solution that will be successful.
I have asked a couple of times now, show us the solution to the problem, that means we don’t have to be concerned. | | | |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 12:45 - Sep 7 with 2287 views | hampstead_blue |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 11:25 - Sep 7 by eireblue |
None of that is hysteria.
All of the things I have mentioned are reported in scientific papers.
Please share the description of the problem that you agree with, and the solution that will be successful.
I have asked a couple of times now, show us the solution to the problem, that means we don’t have to be concerned. |
The solution isn't to grind the world to a halt.
False Alarm
How Climate Change Panic Costs Us Trillions, Hurts the Poor, and Fails to Fix the Planet
By: Bjorn Lomborg
This book offers loads of great ideas.
Have a read, it is very enlightening. Oh, I've have the audiobook version so haven't seen the graphs he alludes to in the text.
I really do think XR are banging on the wrong drum.
Peace and love | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 13:00 - Sep 7 with 2269 views | J2BLUE |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 12:45 - Sep 7 by hampstead_blue |
The solution isn't to grind the world to a halt.
False Alarm
How Climate Change Panic Costs Us Trillions, Hurts the Poor, and Fails to Fix the Planet
By: Bjorn Lomborg
This book offers loads of great ideas.
Have a read, it is very enlightening. Oh, I've have the audiobook version so haven't seen the graphs he alludes to in the text.
I really do think XR are banging on the wrong drum.
Peace and love |
I would like to give you a compliment Hampstead. You have the best built in filter since [redacted] posted on this board. It truly is fascinating to see the like of you and Paz ignore posts which challenge your beliefs and how you both desperately search for any flimsy 'evidence' to ignore points put to you. Usually you both come up with some weak appeal to authority and name someone who agrees with you even if the vast majority of experts disagree.
Just be honest. You don't care. You don't want to put yourself out and make changes. Just own it. | |
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| Helluva statement from XR... on 13:05 - Sep 7 with 2257 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Helluva statement from XR... on 17:51 - Sep 6 by nodge_blue |
Just when I thought I was out.....they drag me back in.
(what film is that from?)
I think scientist do think we may have peaked in world population growth. And countries like Japan already do struggle with an elderly population like you say the UK will.
But in contrast 50% of Indias i billion (ish) are under 25.
But the point is thats still 5 billion more people than when I was born all consuming energy and creating CO2.
Its very hard to control environmental factors when we have a world population like that. |
Agreed population growth is the elephant in the room, and we need a worldwide consensus as to how to tackle it. In my opinion there should be a limit on children in line with replacement level.
The idea that we need to grow our population because of the ageing populations (both in the UK globally) is unsustainable and nothing more than a pyramid scheme. | | | |
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