| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations 21:58 - Sep 7 with 10779 views | tractordownsouth |
Shameful
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 22:52 - Sep 7 with 2931 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 22:46 - Sep 7 by BlueBadger |
No, I'd like them to do their f*cking jobs and look after the interests of the less fortunate and vulnerable rather than just their property owning chums. |
Just imagine if that sentiment was the mainstay of a political party's manifesto.
And you sided with its enemies. Without question. |  |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 22:55 - Sep 7 with 2919 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations (n/t) on 22:09 - Sep 7 by Darth_Koont |
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Yeah, I can see people think that's harsh.
But I reserve my harshest criticism for those who should know much, much better. | |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 23:21 - Sep 7 with 2834 views | J2BLUE |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 22:55 - Sep 7 by Darth_Koont |
Yeah, I can see people think that's harsh.
But I reserve my harshest criticism for those who should know much, much better. |
What about the parties themselves? Why didn't they form an alliance?
Until the parties put aside their ambitions and unite behind the Labour leader I don't see how the Tories can be defeated. Labour needs Scotland. Scotland is probably going to support the SNP again. There needs to be an alliance against the Tories. There won't be. Which is why they'll likely win again. |  |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 23:36 - Sep 7 with 2816 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 23:21 - Sep 7 by J2BLUE |
What about the parties themselves? Why didn't they form an alliance?
Until the parties put aside their ambitions and unite behind the Labour leader I don't see how the Tories can be defeated. Labour needs Scotland. Scotland is probably going to support the SNP again. There needs to be an alliance against the Tories. There won't be. Which is why they'll likely win again. |
Agreed. Particularly awful (in this context) was the Lib Dems running a strong campaign in Kensington (claiming they were the most likely winners) and costing Labour the seat by 150 votes (the Lib Dems finished several thousand votes behind in third). |  | | |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 23:37 - Sep 7 with 2813 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 23:21 - Sep 7 by J2BLUE |
What about the parties themselves? Why didn't they form an alliance?
Until the parties put aside their ambitions and unite behind the Labour leader I don't see how the Tories can be defeated. Labour needs Scotland. Scotland is probably going to support the SNP again. There needs to be an alliance against the Tories. There won't be. Which is why they'll likely win again. |
You're right that there won't be a coalition. There's far too much petty politics involved and there are no shared goals.
It'll take a LibDem or Labour to approach the SNP on their terms. Because the SNP are the only ones that have a point at the moment and policies to back it up.
There was that opportunity last year for Labour and the LibDems but party politics and Swinson's naive greed took over. | |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 23:50 - Sep 7 with 2796 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 22:38 - Sep 7 by 26_Paz |
It’s just all a bit tribal, football support type politics. You’re not interested in talking about the bill at all, you just want to get angry and call people names. |
Er, he literally explained what the amendment was about and posted a link to the inquiry recommendations that could have been incorporated into law, had they not been voted down by all the Tories present in the chamber (and one Independent).
Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations by BlueBadger 7 Sep 2020 22:22It's pretty self-explanatory. It's a bill which would make the recommendations of the first part of the Grenfell enquiry law. Which the lads you voted for and continue to defend voted down.
Still, blue passports and no more foreigners, eh?
https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight/insight/grenfell-tower-inquiry-report-the-recommendations-63941
If you’d looked at the link, you’d have seen it would have strengthened the law around things like evacuation plans, sprinklers, fire doors, removal of combustible materials, appropriate emergency response plans, correct maintenance of emergency equipment including firefighter lifts. You know, just the boring stuff that might have kept 72 people alive at Grendel Tower, and the lack of which places over half a million people in danger in other high rise buildings and several million people if you include medium rise (which seems reasonable, as I bet jumping from the 10th floor isn’t an option).
I don’t know, but I suspect it was voted down at least in part because Starmer proposed it. So if you want to talk about tribal... |  |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 23:57 - Sep 7 with 2788 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 23:21 - Sep 7 by J2BLUE |
What about the parties themselves? Why didn't they form an alliance?
Until the parties put aside their ambitions and unite behind the Labour leader I don't see how the Tories can be defeated. Labour needs Scotland. Scotland is probably going to support the SNP again. There needs to be an alliance against the Tories. There won't be. Which is why they'll likely win again. |
Apparently Labour do better when the Lib Dem’s do well, so a merge wouldn’t be in their best interests. The LDs can poach votes from the Tories from centrists who’d never vote Labour. It seems a strange at first, but is logical when you think about it. So it’s in Labour’s interest to have a strong (not too strong), meaningful Liberal Democrat Party (ha, some chance!). | |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 00:05 - Sep 8 with 2775 views | tractordownsouth |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 22:52 - Sep 7 by Darth_Koont |
Just imagine if that sentiment was the mainstay of a political party's manifesto.
And you sided with its enemies. Without question. |
I’m sorry but that’s complete fiction. Badger had his issues with JC but he didn’t “side with” the Tories by any stretch. | |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 00:18 - Sep 8 with 2767 views | pointofblue |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 22:33 - Sep 7 by Darth_Koont |
The UK brand of centrists have been a plague on our politics. Just like Farage and his xenophobic loons. Because if you can look at the UK and think a centre-right solution (which is what the UK centre is) will repair actual damage to our economy and society then they're as delusional as Brexiteers.
They just don't understand what's going on because, for the majority of them, they're cocooned in a middle class bubble.
Which means they've been passive, naive and utterly outflanked on every major issue for a decade or more.
Amazingly, the Tories have even used the centre's paucity of ideas and engagement to present themselves as their own radical alternative!
I can't remember who it was that pointed out that the centre (Labour right, LibDems, soft Tories) is the first trench in the defence of the Establishment. But they were bang on.
Apologies for the rant (and definitely not against you) but I get a little triggered by all this. |
But I think the issue is the left selling the ideas to the Labour right, Lib Dems and soft Tories to get them to come over. Maybe it's not the missive but the way it's being delivered. Since Thatcher's days the right, whether it be hard right or the 'soft' right, have been very good in general in selling a message; the left has not. I can understand the anger towards the centre but it won't change minds - unfortunately politics is not just about ideals and ideas now, it's also about the branding. |  |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 00:24 - Sep 8 with 2765 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 22:30 - Sep 7 by 26_Paz |
And there ends what was a reasonable discussion. |
Maybe the person who daily responds to people who are injured, sick or otherwise in profound distress has strong feelings about one of the most serious, easily preventable, incidents of this century, and was hoping that lessons would be learned so that he wouldn't have to turn up and treat people the next time it happens?
And maybe his comment is informed by the consistent, drip by drip, running down of public services which have left him and so many of his colleagues hating the Tories for the impact that their policies have on people in need or grave danger?
Maybe he's had a difficult shift and seen first-hand the effects of Tory policies and this is the last straw?
Reasonable discussion of Tories voting down the recommendations of the Grenfell Report be damned! | | | |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 06:36 - Sep 8 with 2689 views | 26_Paz |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 23:50 - Sep 7 by Swansea_Blue |
Er, he literally explained what the amendment was about and posted a link to the inquiry recommendations that could have been incorporated into law, had they not been voted down by all the Tories present in the chamber (and one Independent).
Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations by BlueBadger 7 Sep 2020 22:22It's pretty self-explanatory. It's a bill which would make the recommendations of the first part of the Grenfell enquiry law. Which the lads you voted for and continue to defend voted down.
Still, blue passports and no more foreigners, eh?
https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight/insight/grenfell-tower-inquiry-report-the-recommendations-63941
If you’d looked at the link, you’d have seen it would have strengthened the law around things like evacuation plans, sprinklers, fire doors, removal of combustible materials, appropriate emergency response plans, correct maintenance of emergency equipment including firefighter lifts. You know, just the boring stuff that might have kept 72 people alive at Grendel Tower, and the lack of which places over half a million people in danger in other high rise buildings and several million people if you include medium rise (which seems reasonable, as I bet jumping from the 10th floor isn’t an option).
I don’t know, but I suspect it was voted down at least in part because Starmer proposed it. So if you want to talk about tribal... |
Then he called people c words and kind of lost my interest ... |  |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 07:02 - Sep 8 with 2672 views | solomon |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 22:25 - Sep 7 by lowhouseblue |
i'm guessing that since it was the noes that won, it was an amendment to a bill put forward by the opposition that was voted down. the bill itself is the government's response to the fire safety reforms from grenfell, the amendment was an opposition attempt to give it more bite, i guess. whether the amendment was right or not i don't know. |
As someone who works in construction design, believe me the standards need more bite. |  | | |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 07:25 - Sep 8 with 2661 views | DanTheMan |
Thought I'd actually go and find out what the amendments were, they really aren't all that controversial.
From what I could understand, the amendment put the onus on the building manager or owner responsible for the design, and also for some of the follow up work such as inspections of the lifts for the use of fire fighters.
These were also recommended by the report.
There was a further amendment by Labour about the owner or manager making inspections of the flat doors but I couldn't see that in the report. EDIT: I was incorrect, that is there, just later down.
As the bill currently stands the onus will be on the council, I think. These things aren't the easiest to read.
Personally I don't think having the property owner getting away with having do nothing whilst making the council responsible for everything is a good idea. [Post edited 8 Sep 2020 7:28]
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 08:42 - Sep 8 with 2588 views | solomon |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 07:25 - Sep 8 by DanTheMan |
Thought I'd actually go and find out what the amendments were, they really aren't all that controversial.
From what I could understand, the amendment put the onus on the building manager or owner responsible for the design, and also for some of the follow up work such as inspections of the lifts for the use of fire fighters.
These were also recommended by the report.
There was a further amendment by Labour about the owner or manager making inspections of the flat doors but I couldn't see that in the report. EDIT: I was incorrect, that is there, just later down.
As the bill currently stands the onus will be on the council, I think. These things aren't the easiest to read.
Personally I don't think having the property owner getting away with having do nothing whilst making the council responsible for everything is a good idea. [Post edited 8 Sep 2020 7:28]
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Sorry, the report totally misunderstands fire doors and the associated test evidence required. It is not and never should be the responsibility of the building manger at the outset, this is the responsibility of the principle design team, main and sub contractors and ultimately the BCO, the whole issue surrounding fire doors will only be resolved once commercial and residential standards are aligned, commercial building requirements for fire doors are the bench mark. The building manager is responsible for their up keep and ensuring that items retain their approved and certified design without on site unauthorised modifications, this in particular is always a problem on residential properties. | | | |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 08:43 - Sep 8 with 2590 views | Herbivore |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 07:25 - Sep 8 by DanTheMan |
Thought I'd actually go and find out what the amendments were, they really aren't all that controversial.
From what I could understand, the amendment put the onus on the building manager or owner responsible for the design, and also for some of the follow up work such as inspections of the lifts for the use of fire fighters.
These were also recommended by the report.
There was a further amendment by Labour about the owner or manager making inspections of the flat doors but I couldn't see that in the report. EDIT: I was incorrect, that is there, just later down.
As the bill currently stands the onus will be on the council, I think. These things aren't the easiest to read.
Personally I don't think having the property owner getting away with having do nothing whilst making the council responsible for everything is a good idea. [Post edited 8 Sep 2020 7:28]
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Piffle. Why should entrepreneurs be responsible for anything? They are wealth creators, going about responsibly creating wealth for all. The bureaucratic nonsense should be left to the pencil pushers at the council. Also, we should massively cut back local government funding. |  |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 09:19 - Sep 8 with 2547 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 00:05 - Sep 8 by tractordownsouth |
I’m sorry but that’s complete fiction. Badger had his issues with JC but he didn’t “side with” the Tories by any stretch. |
Heh! I was talking about the Labour right and the press. He, like many supposed anti-Tories, swallowed everything they had to say and regurgitated it freely.
(slow handclap)
Great f*cking job. | |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 09:22 - Sep 8 with 2545 views | itfcjoe |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 08:42 - Sep 8 by solomon |
Sorry, the report totally misunderstands fire doors and the associated test evidence required. It is not and never should be the responsibility of the building manger at the outset, this is the responsibility of the principle design team, main and sub contractors and ultimately the BCO, the whole issue surrounding fire doors will only be resolved once commercial and residential standards are aligned, commercial building requirements for fire doors are the bench mark. The building manager is responsible for their up keep and ensuring that items retain their approved and certified design without on site unauthorised modifications, this in particular is always a problem on residential properties. |
We do a lot on split buildings, but because commercial there standards are much higher.
Safe routes of exit from living quarters etc, there needs to be FRAs done at least annually on these buildings, and there needs to be legislation to stop amendments being made by residents/building managers to the core parts of the system. |  |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 09:29 - Sep 8 with 2527 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 22:45 - Sep 7 by Darth_Koont |
The UK middle class isn't evil. But it's largely unaffected by the stuff it's ignoring. |
What class would you define yourself as? |  | | |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 09:33 - Sep 8 with 2514 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 09:29 - Sep 8 by reusersfreekicks |
What class would you define yourself as? |
Middle class, definitely. | |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 09:36 - Sep 8 with 2498 views | lowhouseblue |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 09:22 - Sep 8 by itfcjoe |
We do a lot on split buildings, but because commercial there standards are much higher.
Safe routes of exit from living quarters etc, there needs to be FRAs done at least annually on these buildings, and there needs to be legislation to stop amendments being made by residents/building managers to the core parts of the system. |
doesn't the requirement for regular fire safety risk assessments during the life of the building, policed by the fire authority, deal with amendments made by tenants etc? surely that would be picked up int he risk assessment and that is a statutory duty for the building operator? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 09:38 - Sep 8 with 2493 views | pointofblue |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 08:43 - Sep 8 by Herbivore |
Piffle. Why should entrepreneurs be responsible for anything? They are wealth creators, going about responsibly creating wealth for all. The bureaucratic nonsense should be left to the pencil pushers at the council. Also, we should massively cut back local government funding. |
Surely of the building owners were responsible for undertaking inspections it opens up the possibility of them signing things off which break regulations? It makes more sense for an outside body to do this.
Apologises if I’ve misunderstood. [Post edited 8 Sep 2020 9:39]
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 09:59 - Sep 8 with 2470 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 00:18 - Sep 8 by pointofblue |
But I think the issue is the left selling the ideas to the Labour right, Lib Dems and soft Tories to get them to come over. Maybe it's not the missive but the way it's being delivered. Since Thatcher's days the right, whether it be hard right or the 'soft' right, have been very good in general in selling a message; the left has not. I can understand the anger towards the centre but it won't change minds - unfortunately politics is not just about ideals and ideas now, it's also about the branding. |
Oh I agree massively re: branding. But the left-wing of British politics isn't really allowed to brand itself - that job is already done by an aggressively resistant media.
So instead of the standard 21st century European social democracy it is and whose policies a majority of UK voters agree with, it's branded as unhinged, unrealistic and muddled nonsense by out-of-touch Marxists. And that's even much of the Guardian commentators' line.
If people want to understand how this particular government can have their 10-year record virtually ignored, get progressively worse and now have an 80-seat majority, the demonisation of those proposing an alternative with progressive policies to reverse the damage is a bloody good place to start.
Of course, the Tories also hitched their wagon to the populism that emerged from the right as a response to mainstream politics. But that popular movement on the left has been sidelined because the mainstream anti-Tories just want to keep plugging away at the soft Establishment route. However that's really only serving people's careers. | |
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| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 10:06 - Sep 8 with 2457 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 09:36 - Sep 8 by lowhouseblue |
doesn't the requirement for regular fire safety risk assessments during the life of the building, policed by the fire authority, deal with amendments made by tenants etc? surely that would be picked up int he risk assessment and that is a statutory duty for the building operator? |
Not necessarily, because those risk assessments do not involve going into people's properties - they only cover communal areas. The only changes made by tenants that they pick up are things you can see from outside, like changes of doors or people piling flammable stuff up on their balcony. | | | |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 10:09 - Sep 8 with 2445 views | eireblue |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 09:59 - Sep 8 by Darth_Koont |
Oh I agree massively re: branding. But the left-wing of British politics isn't really allowed to brand itself - that job is already done by an aggressively resistant media.
So instead of the standard 21st century European social democracy it is and whose policies a majority of UK voters agree with, it's branded as unhinged, unrealistic and muddled nonsense by out-of-touch Marxists. And that's even much of the Guardian commentators' line.
If people want to understand how this particular government can have their 10-year record virtually ignored, get progressively worse and now have an 80-seat majority, the demonisation of those proposing an alternative with progressive policies to reverse the damage is a bloody good place to start.
Of course, the Tories also hitched their wagon to the populism that emerged from the right as a response to mainstream politics. But that popular movement on the left has been sidelined because the mainstream anti-Tories just want to keep plugging away at the soft Establishment route. However that's really only serving people's careers. |
I can’t remember where I read it.
But the disparity and wealth distribution in the US, pre 80’s greed is good, was about the same as it is currently in the Nordic countries. |  | | |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 10:14 - Sep 8 with 2434 views | Darth_Koont |
| Tories vote against implementing Grenfell inquiry recommendations on 10:09 - Sep 8 by eireblue |
I can’t remember where I read it.
But the disparity and wealth distribution in the US, pre 80’s greed is good, was about the same as it is currently in the Nordic countries. |
Yes. And it's also a topic for discussion there as many are worried by even that level creeping up.
Of course, they have a lot better relationship with tax as a way of redistributing wealth, opportunities and well-being for their citizens. That option seems impossible in the UK nowadays given the media/public debate. | |
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