| US election megathread 03:24 - Sep 23 with 138294 views | SpruceMoose |
Seeing as we are approaching the presidential debates, and with the actual election being only 42 days away, maybe we could keep this as a US election megathread for those on here who are interested? One location for all the discussion would prevent multiple threads clogging up the board for those who don't care to get involved?
Personally, the reality of having to experience this election in the near future is stressful AF so if anyone else wants to get stressed together... Jump on board.
Now, insert all the usual caveats about polling here but...it's looking positive that we will be rid of Trump come 2021, much to the disappointment of a couple of posters on here. 538 are well respected in the field of poll analysis so what they announce should be taken seriously.
Of course their analysis doesn't take account of any election fraud, Russian interference, voter suppression etc. But it's positive news none the less. Once Trump is gone, we can work on Johnson. Decent people of the world... Unite!
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/ [Post edited 23 Sep 2020 3:32]
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| US election megathread on 20:39 - Sep 24 with 5249 views | J2BLUE |
| US election megathread on 20:15 - Sep 24 by The_Romford_Blue |
I know your question was for J2 but I’d also say that I wouldn’t bet on those two things.
The bloke who convinced me that it was value is actually a pro gambler on NFL and (to a lesser extent politics) so I do value his opinion. I’ve ignored him for years on political bets because I don’t know the difference. However he did make a fair argument that it was a good idea at 7/4. He had it 11/10 at that point and now has him as the most likely winner (think he said 4/5 fav the other day).
Whether he wins or not isn’t going to change from my bet. And I can’t even vote in it. I’ll hope Biden wins. And if he doesn’t, well at least I’ll have £137.50 back. Actually I won’t because it’s doubled with a horse at Cheltenham next year but you see my point.
I’ll be here on election night hoping Biden gets in and the world returns to normality a little bit more... J2 May remember the last election four years ago.. the ChatRoom7  |
The CS7 must return to the chat room every four years.
Join us Spruce. |  |
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| US election megathread on 20:39 - Sep 24 with 5252 views | SpruceMoose |
| US election megathread on 20:36 - Sep 24 by flimflam |
Not excited just interested seeing as it will affect my mum, 3 sisters and a brother who are all American and live in the USA. I opted to stay in Blighty. |
Well, politely, that's not how you're coming across. You're coming across as if you can't wait to own the libs again. Maybe something to think on if that's not your intention?
Anyhow, where in the states are your family if you don't mind me asking. [Post edited 24 Sep 2020 20:39]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| US election megathread on 20:40 - Sep 24 with 5246 views | SpruceMoose |
| US election megathread on 20:39 - Sep 24 by J2BLUE |
The CS7 must return to the chat room every four years.
Join us Spruce. |
I might swing by if I'm not too drunk and despondent. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| US election megathread on 20:44 - Sep 24 with 5237 views | flimflam |
| US election megathread on 20:39 - Sep 24 by SpruceMoose |
Well, politely, that's not how you're coming across. You're coming across as if you can't wait to own the libs again. Maybe something to think on if that's not your intention?
Anyhow, where in the states are your family if you don't mind me asking. [Post edited 24 Sep 2020 20:39]
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Mixture of Panama City and Montgomery. |  |
| All men and women are created, by the, you know the, you know the thing. |
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| US election megathread on 00:26 - Sep 25 with 5164 views | Kropotkin123 |
| US election megathread on 03:53 - Sep 23 by SpruceMoose |
Can't say it's Facism yet though, not according to some on here. Not until he grows the mustache apparently. |
Authoritarianism <> fascism.
Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true.
Each time I clearly explain the economics and role of the state within facism and how it fundementally differs from Trump's actions, it is silence.
I really don't understand the need to define him as a fascist. All it demonstrates is your lack of understanding of political theory. |  |
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| US election megathread on 00:35 - Sep 25 with 5151 views | SpruceMoose |
| US election megathread on 00:26 - Sep 25 by Kropotkin123 |
Authoritarianism <> fascism.
Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true.
Each time I clearly explain the economics and role of the state within facism and how it fundementally differs from Trump's actions, it is silence.
I really don't understand the need to define him as a fascist. All it demonstrates is your lack of understanding of political theory. |
You may of course be technically correct and I salute you for that.
Perhaps 200,000 dead, forced sterilization of immigrants and children dying in cages at the Mexican border have made me care a little less about that kind of correctness. My bad. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| US election megathread on 00:36 - Sep 25 with 5151 views | Freddies_Ears |
That site linked is really interesting - thx for posting! |  | | |
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| US election megathread on 00:46 - Sep 25 with 5140 views | Kropotkin123 |
| US election megathread on 17:15 - Sep 24 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
If I was American I would vote for Biden. That being said, they are both crap options. The Democrat Nominee should have been Andrew Yang, he’s pragmatic, Smart and liked on all sides. He would’ve walked it.
Biden and Harris crap
Pence and Trump crap. |
If they are both crap we'll need to define them a bit more.
Biden and Harris are like polished turds.
Whereas Trump and Pence are more akin to diarrhea in improvised regions of the world that lead to unnecessary fatalities. [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 0:54]
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| US election megathread on 00:52 - Sep 25 with 5131 views | Freddies_Ears |
That is a long and very scary read..... | | | |
| US election megathread on 00:54 - Sep 25 with 5129 views | Kropotkin123 |
| US election megathread on 00:35 - Sep 25 by SpruceMoose |
You may of course be technically correct and I salute you for that.
Perhaps 200,000 dead, forced sterilization of immigrants and children dying in cages at the Mexican border have made me care a little less about that kind of correctness. My bad. |
On they one hand you can make jokes about just needing to have a mustache and on the other hand, when challenged, you feel the need to lay on a guilt trip - Trying to tie me being correct about political theories with a lack of empathy.
Give over. I can be outraged and empathetic towards all that without the need to consistently push falsehoods upon others. [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 1:01]
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| US election megathread on 01:00 - Sep 25 with 5121 views | SpruceMoose |
| US election megathread on 00:54 - Sep 25 by Kropotkin123 |
On they one hand you can make jokes about just needing to have a mustache and on the other hand, when challenged, you feel the need to lay on a guilt trip - Trying to tie me being correct about political theories with a lack of empathy.
Give over. I can be outraged and empathetic towards all that without the need to consistently push falsehoods upon others. [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 1:01]
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No, you are correct. Terminology is important.
What terminology would you recommend I use to describe the Republican government moving forward? [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 1:35]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| US election megathread on 01:44 - Sep 25 with 5084 views | Kropotkin123 |
| US election megathread on 01:00 - Sep 25 by SpruceMoose |
No, you are correct. Terminology is important.
What terminology would you recommend I use to describe the Republican government moving forward? [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 1:35]
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It's important if you want to change the shortcomings of the political system. If more people understood the difference, then we could actually hold the establishment to account on issues, such as clientelism.
This is just one example of big issues in both the US and UK - Private capitalists pay the prospective governments money to get what they want when their party of choice is in power. But we, the electorate, are sufficiently separated from the legislator to the point where we are proud we can't even define what they are doing, let alone hold them to account over it.
Trump wouldn't even be in power if one vote = one vote in the USA. Clinton won "the popular vote". What a nonsense euphemism that is for 2.8m people's votes were stolen. Yet we are happy for that to persist here every election.
He didn't need to strengthen the state like a fascist, rather undermine it by paying a dubious company to target people in "swing states" on Facebook and Twitter through refined algorithms. | |
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| US election megathread on 01:54 - Sep 25 with 5079 views | SpruceMoose |
| US election megathread on 01:44 - Sep 25 by Kropotkin123 |
It's important if you want to change the shortcomings of the political system. If more people understood the difference, then we could actually hold the establishment to account on issues, such as clientelism.
This is just one example of big issues in both the US and UK - Private capitalists pay the prospective governments money to get what they want when their party of choice is in power. But we, the electorate, are sufficiently separated from the legislator to the point where we are proud we can't even define what they are doing, let alone hold them to account over it.
Trump wouldn't even be in power if one vote = one vote in the USA. Clinton won "the popular vote". What a nonsense euphemism that is for 2.8m people's votes were stolen. Yet we are happy for that to persist here every election.
He didn't need to strengthen the state like a fascist, rather undermine it by paying a dubious company to target people in "swing states" on Facebook and Twitter through refined algorithms. |
I agree with absolutely everything you've put there.
However, while I am by no means a scholar in this area, if you look at something like Eco's fourteen typical features of Facism, could you not easily find fourteen (hundred) solid, genuine examples within the Republican government's behaviour over the last four years that fit his list like a glove?
Is that not enough to enable us to worry that, even if strictly speaking we aren't there yet, we are well on that road and will inevitably end at that destination given enough unchecked time? [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 1:59]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| US election megathread on 02:31 - Sep 25 with 5058 views | Kropotkin123 |
| US election megathread on 01:54 - Sep 25 by SpruceMoose |
I agree with absolutely everything you've put there.
However, while I am by no means a scholar in this area, if you look at something like Eco's fourteen typical features of Facism, could you not easily find fourteen (hundred) solid, genuine examples within the Republican government's behaviour over the last four years that fit his list like a glove?
Is that not enough to enable us to worry that, even if strictly speaking we aren't there yet, we are well on that road and will inevitably end at that destination given enough unchecked time? [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 1:59]
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I've just skim read them. Trump conforms to a lot of them. But only at the authoritarian level. Pretty much every one Eco's 14 point list that Trump adheres to, so to does Stalin's Russia, which is definitely not Fascist. Although ironically it too was accused of being so by those that opposed him.
Eco says nothing about the economy, nothing about how power goes through the state. He is very much watering down fascism to conform to the way people have watered it down.
To answer your question - Is that not enough for us to be worried? Yes and no. I assume you mean Is that not enough to be worried about it being fascist. This is a no for me. There is zero chance of Trump enacting Fascism. It is not conducive to the way he undermines institutions.
However, yes. You should be worried. America has so much to be worried about right now. Trump threating not to transition power peacefully, given that fact his supporters have killed people of differing political opinion, is very worrying. That he is promoting a "Trump Army" is a massive issue.
Now we have police shot in protests makes me worry even more. How will he spin this one? That he is trying to create divisions between the police and the populace is a massive worry.
Let's not forget that he already has blood on his hands due to his Covid19 response, which is a primary reason to divert attention and go after China (regardless of whether they pose a national security threat). So unfortunately for thousands of people, his words and actions have had very real, deadly consequences.
Its late and I'm rambling. But on a personal note I'm worried for my sister. She lives in America. She has an African American husband. They have a child on the way. But right now you can be shot for the colour of you skin. And Trump's divisive behaviour over his term will leave a lasting issues in this area.
Now don't get me wrong, statistically it is more likely to be some other poor soul that is in the wrong place at the wrong time. But my brother in law and his future child should be able to live in a country where the president doesn't encourage violence against them.
I hope power is transferred peacefully and I hope genuine legal proceedings are taken against him when he isn't in power to block them. [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 2:41]
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| US election megathread on 02:45 - Sep 25 with 5050 views | SpruceMoose |
| US election megathread on 02:31 - Sep 25 by Kropotkin123 |
I've just skim read them. Trump conforms to a lot of them. But only at the authoritarian level. Pretty much every one Eco's 14 point list that Trump adheres to, so to does Stalin's Russia, which is definitely not Fascist. Although ironically it too was accused of being so by those that opposed him.
Eco says nothing about the economy, nothing about how power goes through the state. He is very much watering down fascism to conform to the way people have watered it down.
To answer your question - Is that not enough for us to be worried? Yes and no. I assume you mean Is that not enough to be worried about it being fascist. This is a no for me. There is zero chance of Trump enacting Fascism. It is not conducive to the way he undermines institutions.
However, yes. You should be worried. America has so much to be worried about right now. Trump threating not to transition power peacefully, given that fact his supporters have killed people of differing political opinion, is very worrying. That he is promoting a "Trump Army" is a massive issue.
Now we have police shot in protests makes me worry even more. How will he spin this one? That he is trying to create divisions between the police and the populace is a massive worry.
Let's not forget that he already has blood on his hands due to his Covid19 response, which is a primary reason to divert attention and go after China (regardless of whether they pose a national security threat). So unfortunately for thousands of people, his words and actions have had very real, deadly consequences.
Its late and I'm rambling. But on a personal note I'm worried for my sister. She lives in America. She has an African American husband. They have a child on the way. But right now you can be shot for the colour of you skin. And Trump's divisive behaviour over his term will leave a lasting issues in this area.
Now don't get me wrong, statistically it is more likely to be some other poor soul that is in the wrong place at the wrong time. But my brother in law and his future child should be able to live in a country where the president doesn't encourage violence against them.
I hope power is transferred peacefully and I hope genuine legal proceedings are taken against him when he isn't in power to block them. [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 2:41]
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Thanks for that response. Very informative, I see where you're coming from, I appreciate it. Apologies for being rather snippy earlier. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| US election megathread on 02:57 - Sep 25 with 5045 views | Kropotkin123 |
| US election megathread on 02:45 - Sep 25 by SpruceMoose |
Thanks for that response. Very informative, I see where you're coming from, I appreciate it. Apologies for being rather snippy earlier. |
No need for apologies. I'm old enough and ugly enough to know you are challenging the idea and not the person. I believe that challenge, in this instance, comes because you care that Trump is seen for the scumbag his is. In that respect we have the same intentions. [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 2:59]
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| US election megathread on 04:20 - Sep 25 with 5015 views | Kropotkin123 |
| US election megathread on 01:00 - Sep 25 by SpruceMoose |
No, you are correct. Terminology is important.
What terminology would you recommend I use to describe the Republican government moving forward? [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 1:35]
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I missed your edit before. I would describe Trump as authoritarian, racist, a (right-wing) populist, undemocratic, far-right and a bully to name a few.
In Latin America they have been plagued by the "national strongman" on both the right and the left. This word is Caudillo. Even someone like Franco, the Spanish fascist dictator, was called a Caudillo. I think this is the best word, but not our language.
I think populist is the best fit in English. From slogans like MAGA, to his Wall, to his Twitter communication style, to his lack of cohesive policies, to his cult of personality.
Most of the time when I personally complain about him to people I'm using the word authoritarian. Although I think on reflection I will try to use populist as that draws together the general rise of people like Trump, BJ and even someone like Nigel Garage.
Edit: Great auto-correct, I'll leave that how it is [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 4:21]
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| US election megathread on 17:04 - Sep 25 with 4891 views | Bent_double |
Thanks for that, I really wish I hadn't read it though - I didn't really understand how the US election process worked before, now I've got no idea!
Assuming the writer is correct, there could be 3 people claiming the Presidency on Inauguration Day: Trump, Biden and Nancy Pelosi (as acting President)????
Seems like the Democrats drive to get as many people to vote as possible could also backfire, if more of them vote by mail as opposed to in-person, that increases the time it takes to count the votes and helps the Republicans claim victory based on in-person votes and possible mail fraud. |  |
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| US election megathread on 17:27 - Sep 25 with 4877 views | HARRY10 |
| US election megathread on 17:04 - Sep 25 by Bent_double |
Thanks for that, I really wish I hadn't read it though - I didn't really understand how the US election process worked before, now I've got no idea!
Assuming the writer is correct, there could be 3 people claiming the Presidency on Inauguration Day: Trump, Biden and Nancy Pelosi (as acting President)????
Seems like the Democrats drive to get as many people to vote as possible could also backfire, if more of them vote by mail as opposed to in-person, that increases the time it takes to count the votes and helps the Republicans claim victory based on in-person votes and possible mail fraud. |
"....and possible mail fraud. "
Which ends any claim, full stop
Courts recognise evidence, not possibility | | | |
| US election megathread on 18:54 - Sep 25 with 4839 views | Bent_double |
| US election megathread on 17:27 - Sep 25 by HARRY10 |
"....and possible mail fraud. "
Which ends any claim, full stop
Courts recognise evidence, not possibility |
Depends who's in charge of the court. | |
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| US election megathread on 19:09 - Sep 25 with 4825 views | manchego |
| US election megathread on 02:57 - Sep 25 by Kropotkin123 |
No need for apologies. I'm old enough and ugly enough to know you are challenging the idea and not the person. I believe that challenge, in this instance, comes because you care that Trump is seen for the scumbag his is. In that respect we have the same intentions. [Post edited 25 Sep 2020 2:59]
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I'm wondering if we get too obsessed by the word facism.
It doesn't matter if he fits the Eco definition or if he wears a uniform or has a moustache or not.
Isn't his behavior obviously bad enough to consider him as much of a threat as any 'actual' facist ? |  | | |
| US election megathread on 00:01 - Sep 26 with 4757 views | Kropotkin123 |
| US election megathread on 19:09 - Sep 25 by manchego |
I'm wondering if we get too obsessed by the word facism.
It doesn't matter if he fits the Eco definition or if he wears a uniform or has a moustache or not.
Isn't his behavior obviously bad enough to consider him as much of a threat as any 'actual' facist ? |
Yes, I believe its.
From your question, I assume the point I may differ with you on is... if you incorrectly recognise the threat you risk missing both the underlying problem and the resulting solutions.
I mentioned before the threat of clientelism as an example. It may be a boring example and one that doesn't attract the same attention as the killing of African American civilians. But is is an easier one for me personally to explain.
Clientelism isn't just a Trump problem, it is an institutionalised problem across many democracies that give people like Trump a way to exploit the electorate through structural weakness.
For example, it is extremely difficult for the American electorate to introduce and maintain an effective NHS when the American legislative has been paid to prevent the poorest members of society from accessing it.
Now, in Fascism the power flows out from the state. Economically this is called corporatism, where the state dictates to every corporation what it needs the corporation to fulfill.
This is a lot different to the situation we have now where the corporations bid to the legislature to do what is in their interest.
This type of difference between Fascism and popularism happens many times over. I believe that a significant reason for the American electorate facilitating Trump's presidency in the first place and now not providing checks and balances to stop someone like this from doing the same in the future is due to not sufficiently recognising what he is.
Furthermore I would extend this to the UK too. Boris Johnson is a populist. Issues like the funding of his campaign by people who then received kickbacks is the same as the healthcare or gun lobbyists in the US. The more painful thing for me is that in the UK it is more subtle, so it is easier to get away with and not think of it as a fundamental issue of the electorate and the legislature deliberately and systematically being separated by private capitalists for their own personal gains over the interests of the local community.
I hope that example explains why I think the correct definition is important. I apologise for only giving one example and I hope the depth of the response is more productive to understanding my reasoning, even if you still disagree, than giving more examples and speaking on a shallower level. [Post edited 26 Sep 2020 0:06]
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