| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) 13:07 - Oct 29 with 25510 views | Ewan_Oozami |
According to my highly dodgy Twitter feed... [Post edited 29 Oct 2020 13:10]
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 13:57 - Oct 29 with 2130 views | tractordownsouth |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 13:32 - Oct 29 by Darth_Koont |
See above.
Increasingly policy and political debate itself seems to be coming from outside the traditional Con/LibDem/Lab structures. Take BLM, Scottish Independence, XR and the Greens, and sadly UKIP/Brexit Party/EDL and the like.
If you want to change things on the inside then that just isn’t happening given how that’s sewn up by the establishment political parties and media.
I think this has been coming a while so it’s pretty exciting if left-wingers can finally accept the evidence of the past 40-odd years and it does actually happen. |
How can a left wing organisation influence the policies of a Tory government? The reason UKIP gained traction was because they had a charismatic leader and the Tory government had many on its' backbenches who sympathised with its' cause and felt their own leader wasn't being ideologically pure enough. |  |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 13:59 - Oct 29 with 2124 views | solomon |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 13:52 - Oct 29 by Darth_Koont |
I’m not going to take that as a point worth responding to seriously. |
Your defending the indefensible today, You don’t need my help to look out of touch. |  | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:03 - Oct 29 with 2103 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 13:45 - Oct 29 by Guthrum |
Tho it took the Greens, the ScotsNats and the Kippers several decades to gain serious traction. Even the BLM movement is (in the UK) part of a process dating back to the 1960s.
Being ejected from the Labour Party in the 1980s gave the hard left* not a platform, but 30 years in the wilderness. Do they have anything to grab the public's attention (in a positive way), in order to make it different this time?
* Edit: this is meant in a descriptive, rather than a perjorative sense. [Post edited 29 Oct 2020 13:48]
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The left has been around for a long time too. Despite being coopted into Blair’s neoliberal experiment, they’ve never gone away.
I think the advent of the internet, self-publishing and social media (along with an erosion of trust for politics and the media across the board) means that there are very different opportunities now. And having lost Scotland to the SNP, Labour would even have to grit its teeth, ignore its extreme centrists and court a left-wing movement’s vote. Because as we’ve seen that vote is easily ignored within the traditional party structure.
I hate what Farage and Cummings stand for but they’ve been the biggest forces in politics this past decade and that’s down to portraying themselves as outside the establishment. If Corbynistas and others take their popular policies outside the establishment then I see no reason why they couldn’t do the same - and it certainly seems a better way of achieving anything rather than playing someone else’s game who doesn’t want them and their policies to succeed. |  |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:07 - Oct 29 with 2082 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 13:59 - Oct 29 by solomon |
Your defending the indefensible today, You don’t need my help to look out of touch. |
I don’t want your help, I just want some form of specific and fact-based discussion about what you disagree with rather than silly accusations. | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:09 - Oct 29 with 2052 views | Bluefish |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:07 - Oct 29 by Darth_Koont |
I don’t want your help, I just want some form of specific and fact-based discussion about what you disagree with rather than silly accusations. |
No you don't. It literally would not make a difference what is presented to you. |  |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:14 - Oct 29 with 2047 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
It is self evident that the scale of the issue was "overstated"...this is bullsh1t spectacle politics at its finest. |  |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:14 - Oct 29 with 2038 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 13:57 - Oct 29 by tractordownsouth |
How can a left wing organisation influence the policies of a Tory government? The reason UKIP gained traction was because they had a charismatic leader and the Tory government had many on its' backbenches who sympathised with its' cause and felt their own leader wasn't being ideologically pure enough. |
How can a left-wing influence the party that’s looking to silence them and move everyone to a centrist position for some supposed electoral gains? Gains that look highly questionable, especially without sufficient support from the regions who have shown repeatedly over the last decade that they don’t like or trust the establishment and have kept the receipts of inaction over decades?
I think Labour is done. And any way a real alternative can take shape and build momentum (with or without Labour as a partner) is a good thing. | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:29 - Oct 29 with 1999 views | Meadowlark |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:14 - Oct 29 by Darth_Koont |
How can a left-wing influence the party that’s looking to silence them and move everyone to a centrist position for some supposed electoral gains? Gains that look highly questionable, especially without sufficient support from the regions who have shown repeatedly over the last decade that they don’t like or trust the establishment and have kept the receipts of inaction over decades?
I think Labour is done. And any way a real alternative can take shape and build momentum (with or without Labour as a partner) is a good thing. |
As someone has already said,
“The oligarchs have discovered the formula for persuading the poor to vote for the interests of the very rich” |  | | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:30 - Oct 29 with 1996 views | Guthrum |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:03 - Oct 29 by Darth_Koont |
The left has been around for a long time too. Despite being coopted into Blair’s neoliberal experiment, they’ve never gone away.
I think the advent of the internet, self-publishing and social media (along with an erosion of trust for politics and the media across the board) means that there are very different opportunities now. And having lost Scotland to the SNP, Labour would even have to grit its teeth, ignore its extreme centrists and court a left-wing movement’s vote. Because as we’ve seen that vote is easily ignored within the traditional party structure.
I hate what Farage and Cummings stand for but they’ve been the biggest forces in politics this past decade and that’s down to portraying themselves as outside the establishment. If Corbynistas and others take their popular policies outside the establishment then I see no reason why they couldn’t do the same - and it certainly seems a better way of achieving anything rather than playing someone else’s game who doesn’t want them and their policies to succeed. |
It's also down to seizing on a zeitgeist and brutal effectiveness in presentation.
The internet is no panacea. It's easier to publish, but much harder to get writings out to a wide public, to make a serious impact and to be noticed amongst the noise. As people can now read only what they want to hear, how do their minds get changed?
I'm trying to steer this away from mere Corbyn bashing, but in 2019, despite the internet and the pain of a decade's austerity, Johnson proved himself the more politically ruthless and effective. He expelled dissenters and singularised his message. Corbyn did neither. |  |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:33 - Oct 29 with 1990 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:14 - Oct 29 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It is self evident that the scale of the issue was "overstated"...this is bullsh1t spectacle politics at its finest. |
1 case is too many.
Yet 23 cases were linked directly to Corbyn's office.
And countless others were 'sat on' because it had political leverage.
No-one is coming out of this with any credit, whether you are a Corbynite or not |  | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:33 - Oct 29 with 1985 views | StokieBlue |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 13:25 - Oct 29 by Darth_Koont |
Who’s talking about the SWP?
I think this may well result in a new left wing party and an effective one like UKIP and Brexit in shaping policy. This time for good and to represent the people the establishment always ignores until it’s time to vote. |
Interestingly there are plenty who want to leave the party and form a new party and plenty who want them to leave and form their own party. You can see the internal battle playing out in just the comments on McDonnell's feed.
It's only going to get worse as the day progresses.
SB |  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:41 - Oct 29 with 1964 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:33 - Oct 29 by StokieBlue |
Interestingly there are plenty who want to leave the party and form a new party and plenty who want them to leave and form their own party. You can see the internal battle playing out in just the comments on McDonnell's feed.
It's only going to get worse as the day progresses.
SB |
"In the interests of party unity"
I'm going to undermine the current leader and pour petrol on the issue | | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:42 - Oct 29 with 1955 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:33 - Oct 29 by StokieBlue |
Interestingly there are plenty who want to leave the party and form a new party and plenty who want them to leave and form their own party. You can see the internal battle playing out in just the comments on McDonnell's feed.
It's only going to get worse as the day progresses.
SB |
I don’t blame McDonnell and others who have been committed to the party for years. Talk of unity and moving forward must seem like the only choice for them.
But I suspect there are an awful lot of others (activists, organisers and voters) who feel no such allegiance or even hope that Labour know what it’s doing anymore. As a genuinely representative force they seem utterly hamstrung but they’ll presumably keep pretending that their traditional electoral force means they hold all the cards.
Losing so much support in the regions should be a wake-up call. But that’s been getting louder for a decade or more and they still haven’t stirred. | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:44 - Oct 29 with 1948 views | solomon |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:09 - Oct 29 by Bluefish |
No you don't. It literally would not make a difference what is presented to you. |
I genuinely feel for him, now going so deep it’s impossible to get back. | | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:49 - Oct 29 with 1929 views | BloomBlue |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:14 - Oct 29 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It is self evident that the scale of the issue was "overstated"...this is bullsh1t spectacle politics at its finest. |
Try talking to a Jewish person and ask them if they think the same.
I don't think it could be more damning for the Labour party a party which apparently prides itself on being a broad church when clearly it's not.
But you're happy with it obviously, each to their own |  | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:55 - Oct 29 with 1911 views | pointofblue |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:03 - Oct 29 by Darth_Koont |
The left has been around for a long time too. Despite being coopted into Blair’s neoliberal experiment, they’ve never gone away.
I think the advent of the internet, self-publishing and social media (along with an erosion of trust for politics and the media across the board) means that there are very different opportunities now. And having lost Scotland to the SNP, Labour would even have to grit its teeth, ignore its extreme centrists and court a left-wing movement’s vote. Because as we’ve seen that vote is easily ignored within the traditional party structure.
I hate what Farage and Cummings stand for but they’ve been the biggest forces in politics this past decade and that’s down to portraying themselves as outside the establishment. If Corbynistas and others take their popular policies outside the establishment then I see no reason why they couldn’t do the same - and it certainly seems a better way of achieving anything rather than playing someone else’s game who doesn’t want them and their policies to succeed. |
The thing is the likes of Farage and Cummings builds a vision of where the ills of the country lay and how they can be fixed. They deliver a simple message well and continue to push it, with assistance from the mainstream media. It has soundbites, there is an essence of hard sell about it but it’s all about building a better future.
There is a nastiness about this because they’re actually not doing anything of the sort. The irony is that, in many ways, those on the left are but have not found the right person to sell the message in the similar way - the simplicity, the passion, connecting with the public. Find this person and success could be earned but, for now, it seems a long way off. |  |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:55 - Oct 29 with 1915 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:49 - Oct 29 by BloomBlue |
Try talking to a Jewish person and ask them if they think the same.
I don't think it could be more damning for the Labour party a party which apparently prides itself on being a broad church when clearly it's not.
But you're happy with it obviously, each to their own |
Have you actually spoken to a Jewish person?! I suspect not. The fact that you keep desperately trying to tar Starmer with the same brush shows me you're just using anti-semitism to politically point score. That, and the fact you've called all Labour supporters antisemitic, is shameful.
As if your own party is whiter than white. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:56 - Oct 29 with 1906 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:41 - Oct 29 by ElderGrizzly |
"In the interests of party unity"
I'm going to undermine the current leader and pour petrol on the issue |
Starmer was the unity candidate and has shown zero evidence for that once he secured the job.
Then again, as the past 5 years have shown, the Labour right would rather defeat the left than defeat the Tories. I’m looking forward to them realising that they certainly can’t do both. | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:59 - Oct 29 with 1895 views | BloomBlue |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:55 - Oct 29 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Have you actually spoken to a Jewish person?! I suspect not. The fact that you keep desperately trying to tar Starmer with the same brush shows me you're just using anti-semitism to politically point score. That, and the fact you've called all Labour supporters antisemitic, is shameful.
As if your own party is whiter than white. |
My wife and Son are Jewish, so yes I spend a lot of time talking to Jewish people.
Have you ever spoken to a Jewish person? | | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 15:03 - Oct 29 with 1878 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:55 - Oct 29 by pointofblue |
The thing is the likes of Farage and Cummings builds a vision of where the ills of the country lay and how they can be fixed. They deliver a simple message well and continue to push it, with assistance from the mainstream media. It has soundbites, there is an essence of hard sell about it but it’s all about building a better future.
There is a nastiness about this because they’re actually not doing anything of the sort. The irony is that, in many ways, those on the left are but have not found the right person to sell the message in the similar way - the simplicity, the passion, connecting with the public. Find this person and success could be earned but, for now, it seems a long way off. |
I think it’s people’s distrust of the establishment that is the key barrier here.
I don’t think it should be Corbyn, as much as anything so that people get past the idea that this is a personality cult, but as soon as someone can step away from the establishment and start pushing these policies (and harsh criticism of the underlying problems and previous failures) then they’ll get the support to be a force.
Like a Rashford but looking at the systemic/structural problems and solutions and not just the short-term fixes (however worthy they are). | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 15:04 - Oct 29 with 1878 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:59 - Oct 29 by BloomBlue |
My wife and Son are Jewish, so yes I spend a lot of time talking to Jewish people.
Have you ever spoken to a Jewish person? |
We'll have to take your word for that. Beside the point though, you're clearly a Tory desperately trying to tar all of Labour with the antisemitism brush. The Labour Party is actually full of very decent, non-racist, people. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 15:07 - Oct 29 with 1861 views | solomon |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:29 - Oct 29 by Meadowlark |
As someone has already said,
“The oligarchs have discovered the formula for persuading the poor to vote for the interests of the very rich” |
Who’s running the world? | | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 15:09 - Oct 29 with 1850 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 15:07 - Oct 29 by solomon |
Who’s running the world? |
Rich people. | |
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| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 15:13 - Oct 29 with 1832 views | BloomBlue |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 15:04 - Oct 29 by The_Flashing_Smile |
We'll have to take your word for that. Beside the point though, you're clearly a Tory desperately trying to tar all of Labour with the antisemitism brush. The Labour Party is actually full of very decent, non-racist, people. |
The EHRC found it guilty today of antisemitism therefore it's not entirely full of non-racist people as clearly there are some racist people in the Labour party.
All I'm doing is defending those people who have been on the end of that racism, if you want accuse me of that then fine I'm happy to be found guilty | | | |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 15:14 - Oct 29 with 1829 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Corbyn suspended... (n/t) on 14:33 - Oct 29 by ElderGrizzly |
1 case is too many.
Yet 23 cases were linked directly to Corbyn's office.
And countless others were 'sat on' because it had political leverage.
No-one is coming out of this with any credit, whether you are a Corbynite or not |
No problem with any of that but Corbyn has now been suspended for pointing out the scale of the problem was "overstated" by political opponents and some media. It self evidently was. | |
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