| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy 16:41 - Jan 27 with 11695 views | ElderGrizzly |
|  | | |  |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:55 - Jan 27 with 1148 views | GlasgowBlue |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:53 - Jan 27 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
You just can not post without getting rude can you. I so wish I had your bravery! All I am suggesting is, that you are exaggerating in suggesting that loads of folk are wallowing in potential European Union deaths. It suits your argument of course, but is just not true. I am sure that 99% of ardent brexiteers and remainers hope we can work together to solve this terrible situation. To try and make political capital out of it is futile. |
M14 Blue is one of the most polite and measured posters on here. |  |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:55 - Jan 27 with 1148 views | pointofblue |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:31 - Jan 27 by bluelagos |
Indeed.
The idea that BJ has the moral compass to propose something that would be hugely unpopular but would undoubtedly save many lives (albeit foreign ones) at the expense of his career / our economy is very much "ideal world" thinking.
But that's where my head is at. Naive in the extreme and as disillusioned as ever with the petty nationalism that permeates our political thinking / public opinion. |
To be fair, there is no way Keir Starmer would propose the government do this either. He could do but he is also aware there would be a backlash and not just from the extreme right. |  |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:55 - Jan 27 with 1144 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 17:09 - Jan 27 by J2BLUE |
This will go down like a lead balloon on here but i'm sure part of it is not wanting to be seen to be 'beaten' by a country who has just left the bloc. It will stir up some pretty hostile feeling among others why want out. So now they want to prove the bigger kid will win by trying to bully us. |
Or it's a contractual dispute that none of us know the ins and outs of. I'd say let's wait and see what happens. Maybe the EU are "being bullies" as some say, or maybe they have reasonable grounds for accusing AZ of breaching their contract. Once some lawyer has made more in a week than the average annual wage we'll know the answer. |  |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:57 - Jan 27 with 1131 views | giant_stow |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:48 - Jan 27 by bluelagos |
The WHO is a diversion.
There is a clear ethical question of whether we should continue full steam ahead with our vaccination program at a time when there is a global shortage of the vaccine. To use vaccinations for our less vulnerable ahead of foreign vulnerable people will cause additional deaths.
We can hide behind whatever side points we like, but that is the reality of our current position and it isn't even being discussed. By continuing as we are more people will die. Just not British ones.
I know I am blunt but that is the reality.
And I concede absolutely Jo public would support the govt's position of vaccinating Brits first, irrespective. Just look at the support for cutting overseas aid when anyone who understands overseas aid knows that will lead to people dying. |
The people at Oxford apparently insisted on a not for profit clause in their deal with az. I gather a factory in India is about to start producing 1b doses per year. Az is planning on producing billions of doses for the world at cost. I gather we've also chipped in a huge amount to that who/UN programme aiming to bulk buy vacines for the less well off regions of the world. Plus we have one of the greatest current needs.
It may not be our govt deciding all of this, but as a country, perhaps our hands are clean? [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 20:02]
|  |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:59 - Jan 27 with 1119 views | J2BLUE |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:55 - Jan 27 by Swansea_Blue |
Or it's a contractual dispute that none of us know the ins and outs of. I'd say let's wait and see what happens. Maybe the EU are "being bullies" as some say, or maybe they have reasonable grounds for accusing AZ of breaching their contract. Once some lawyer has made more in a week than the average annual wage we'll know the answer. |
AstraZeneca have told us exactly what was agreed and why. |  |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:05 - Jan 27 with 1092 views | Swansea_Blue |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:59 - Jan 27 by J2BLUE |
AstraZeneca have told us exactly what was agreed and why. |
That's alright then. Have they made the contract public yet? I genuinely don't know, but surely they've got nothing to hide by not releasing it if there's a dispute. | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:11 - Jan 27 with 1072 views | bluelagos |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:57 - Jan 27 by giant_stow |
The people at Oxford apparently insisted on a not for profit clause in their deal with az. I gather a factory in India is about to start producing 1b doses per year. Az is planning on producing billions of doses for the world at cost. I gather we've also chipped in a huge amount to that who/UN programme aiming to bulk buy vacines for the less well off regions of the world. Plus we have one of the greatest current needs.
It may not be our govt deciding all of this, but as a country, perhaps our hands are clean? [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 20:02]
|
"As a country"
I have no doubt our scientists have done amazing things for the world good. Not sure why that would extricate our politicians from their moral duty to consider more than just putting British interests first.
We could make a decision to save 000s of foreign lives. Or we can ignore the impending issues overseas by "putting Britain first". I know it's uncomfortable (ethical dilemmas usually are) but hiding behind the great work of our scientists is a bit of copout imho. |  |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:12 - Jan 27 with 1071 views | J2BLUE |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:05 - Jan 27 by Swansea_Blue |
That's alright then. Have they made the contract public yet? I genuinely don't know, but surely they've got nothing to hide by not releasing it if there's a dispute. |
I don't know. The AZ CEO seems pretty relaxed that they are right.
The EU have published details of its Curevac (I don't know if this is the place producing the AZ vaccine) and it makes it clear that it's a best estimate and might be delayed.
I don't wish for the EU to have any delay. I hope we can globally scale up production and get the world vaccinated. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:22 - Jan 27 with 1039 views | GlasgowBlue |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:11 - Jan 27 by bluelagos |
"As a country"
I have no doubt our scientists have done amazing things for the world good. Not sure why that would extricate our politicians from their moral duty to consider more than just putting British interests first.
We could make a decision to save 000s of foreign lives. Or we can ignore the impending issues overseas by "putting Britain first". I know it's uncomfortable (ethical dilemmas usually are) but hiding behind the great work of our scientists is a bit of copout imho. |
I'd ask could the UK government please send some up here but availability of the vaccine isnt an issue. Delivery is.
984,000 vaccines made available to date in Scotland. Just 437,000 people vaccinated.
They are making a right pig's ear of it up here. | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:22 - Jan 27 with 1039 views | giant_stow |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:11 - Jan 27 by bluelagos |
"As a country"
I have no doubt our scientists have done amazing things for the world good. Not sure why that would extricate our politicians from their moral duty to consider more than just putting British interests first.
We could make a decision to save 000s of foreign lives. Or we can ignore the impending issues overseas by "putting Britain first". I know it's uncomfortable (ethical dilemmas usually are) but hiding behind the great work of our scientists is a bit of copout imho. |
Any choice to save 1000s of foreign lives would come at the same cost in UK lives though. As asked above in reverse, are foreign lives worth more than those in the UK?
As I keep saying we are also more in the hole than most other countries, so those doses will save more immediate lives than a cou try with lower infection rates.
And I also think our country does get a bit of the credit for our scientists. Has any other vaccine producer offered doses at cost yet? Something about the UK created the conditions for this potential world saver to be born here and now, not elsewhere. | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:29 - Jan 27 with 1016 views | m14_blue |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:53 - Jan 27 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
You just can not post without getting rude can you. I so wish I had your bravery! All I am suggesting is, that you are exaggerating in suggesting that loads of folk are wallowing in potential European Union deaths. It suits your argument of course, but is just not true. I am sure that 99% of ardent brexiteers and remainers hope we can work together to solve this terrible situation. To try and make political capital out of it is futile. |
I didn’t say loads of people were, I said those that were sickened me.
If you’re not one of them then I wasn’t talking about you and I’m not sure what you’re getting so defensive about. | | | |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:31 - Jan 27 with 1013 views | bluelagos |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:22 - Jan 27 by giant_stow |
Any choice to save 1000s of foreign lives would come at the same cost in UK lives though. As asked above in reverse, are foreign lives worth more than those in the UK?
As I keep saying we are also more in the hole than most other countries, so those doses will save more immediate lives than a cou try with lower infection rates.
And I also think our country does get a bit of the credit for our scientists. Has any other vaccine producer offered doses at cost yet? Something about the UK created the conditions for this potential world saver to be born here and now, not elsewhere. |
Whilst we are vaccinating our most vulnerable, you are correct.
But once we have vaccinated our most vulnerable groups, at that point the decision / dilemma is there. We would be choosing to vaccinate younger Brits with little risk of death rather than see the vaccines diverted to the most vulnerable elderly living elsewhere.
Check out the rates in the Baltic countries today. They are extremely high and if they don't get vaccinated will soon be in a position where their death rates exceed ours (assuming success in our program)
Anyhow - you are doing an admirable job of avoiding the dilemma ulla. And to be fair I was struggling with it when the WHO guy suggested it. It is a horrible decision but I think we know what is the moral answer... | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:34 - Jan 27 with 1002 views | bluelagos |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:22 - Jan 27 by GlasgowBlue |
I'd ask could the UK government please send some up here but availability of the vaccine isnt an issue. Delivery is.
984,000 vaccines made available to date in Scotland. Just 437,000 people vaccinated.
They are making a right pig's ear of it up here. |
Wales seems to be messing up too? Wonder if the answer in both Scotland and Wales is a function of size / fewer people.
That said, my limited knowledge of Scotland is that the vast majority of people live in the central belt which should make it easier to start with? | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:42 - Jan 27 with 980 views | giant_stow |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:31 - Jan 27 by bluelagos |
Whilst we are vaccinating our most vulnerable, you are correct.
But once we have vaccinated our most vulnerable groups, at that point the decision / dilemma is there. We would be choosing to vaccinate younger Brits with little risk of death rather than see the vaccines diverted to the most vulnerable elderly living elsewhere.
Check out the rates in the Baltic countries today. They are extremely high and if they don't get vaccinated will soon be in a position where their death rates exceed ours (assuming success in our program)
Anyhow - you are doing an admirable job of avoiding the dilemma ulla. And to be fair I was struggling with it when the WHO guy suggested it. It is a horrible decision but I think we know what is the moral answer... |
I do see what you're saying about the situation changing when the vulnerable people are vaccinated. Perhaps then, but we're some way off that moment.
If you're chatting about a wider moral duty to only vaccinate your population in line with those of the world's poorest, then maybe that gets into a whole other philosophical rhealm of what it is to be human. | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:44 - Jan 27 with 972 views | GlasgowBlue |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:34 - Jan 27 by bluelagos |
Wales seems to be messing up too? Wonder if the answer in both Scotland and Wales is a function of size / fewer people.
That said, my limited knowledge of Scotland is that the vast majority of people live in the central belt which should make it easier to start with? |
Devolved health imo. It should be a national effort lead by one government. Again that's my opinion. [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 20:45]
| |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:46 - Jan 27 with 961 views | J2BLUE |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:42 - Jan 27 by giant_stow |
I do see what you're saying about the situation changing when the vulnerable people are vaccinated. Perhaps then, but we're some way off that moment.
If you're chatting about a wider moral duty to only vaccinate your population in line with those of the world's poorest, then maybe that gets into a whole other philosophical rhealm of what it is to be human. |
Good point with that last line. Fact is your family are more important than than some random foreign stranger. Which is why European citizens are being so hostile to the UK on Twitter. Whatever a piece of paper says, their family are more important than random UK strangers. | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:52 - Jan 27 with 950 views | bluelagos |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:42 - Jan 27 by giant_stow |
I do see what you're saying about the situation changing when the vulnerable people are vaccinated. Perhaps then, but we're some way off that moment.
If you're chatting about a wider moral duty to only vaccinate your population in line with those of the world's poorest, then maybe that gets into a whole other philosophical rhealm of what it is to be human. |
Indeed it does. Does it mean prioritising the lives of people from your "own country" over those of foreigners? I know it does for many, absolutely it does.
Maybe I am a bit of a hippy, but seeing up close people living in abject poverty in places like Liberia, people dying for the want of clean water, whilst we worry about what type of new car to get, is properly fcked. And that's the reality of the world we live in.
One where we obsess over material things rather than give a fck for some bloke struggling to feed his kids in another part of the world.
And what even is a country ffs? Some man made structure that means we can treat people less equally/favourably than others because of an accident of birth. Some fcking world we live in isn't it... [Post edited 27 Jan 2021 20:54]
| |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:56 - Jan 27 with 943 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 19:48 - Jan 27 by bluelagos |
The WHO is a diversion.
There is a clear ethical question of whether we should continue full steam ahead with our vaccination program at a time when there is a global shortage of the vaccine. To use vaccinations for our less vulnerable ahead of foreign vulnerable people will cause additional deaths.
We can hide behind whatever side points we like, but that is the reality of our current position and it isn't even being discussed. By continuing as we are more people will die. Just not British ones.
I know I am blunt but that is the reality.
And I concede absolutely Jo public would support the govt's position of vaccinating Brits first, irrespective. Just look at the support for cutting overseas aid when anyone who understands overseas aid knows that will lead to people dying. |
You're a bit bonkers BL but I like you.
You have a habit of promoting peoples takes on climate change whilst posting steak reviews from Argentina and driving gas guzzling motorbikes. At the same time (and I know) you do whatever you can to make your time productive to help others.
The thing is about shared vaccinations though is - let's say, complicated.
Oxford vaccine is profit free and costs peanuts when compared to others, so with regards to EU it isn't a case that they can't afford it but more of a case that they completely ballsed it up. You then have to ask yourself if they would have been so kind to have given us these vaccines if we had ballsed it up. Did Europe give us PPE when we destroyed our just out of date stocks in 2019?
Shall we give vaccines to Chad before our own? I can see the merits of global equivalence but the world simply doesn't work like that and let's face it, it would be unmanageable. If Chad can't afford vaccines but they are available then yes, we should help, no question. We are however in a world where our governments are there to protect its people - but I am sure there are lot's of stuff going on behind the scenes for the less fortunate.
Basically there is a balance - however, personally, if we did have a glut (which of course we haven't) I would rather see the glut going to the likes of Chad.
As for global aid, correct me if I am wrong but I believe we are going down from 0.7% of gross national income to 0.5% which remains the best in Europe - if not the world??????? |  |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 21:03 - Jan 27 with 927 views | bluelagos |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:56 - Jan 27 by Lord_Lucan |
You're a bit bonkers BL but I like you.
You have a habit of promoting peoples takes on climate change whilst posting steak reviews from Argentina and driving gas guzzling motorbikes. At the same time (and I know) you do whatever you can to make your time productive to help others.
The thing is about shared vaccinations though is - let's say, complicated.
Oxford vaccine is profit free and costs peanuts when compared to others, so with regards to EU it isn't a case that they can't afford it but more of a case that they completely ballsed it up. You then have to ask yourself if they would have been so kind to have given us these vaccines if we had ballsed it up. Did Europe give us PPE when we destroyed our just out of date stocks in 2019?
Shall we give vaccines to Chad before our own? I can see the merits of global equivalence but the world simply doesn't work like that and let's face it, it would be unmanageable. If Chad can't afford vaccines but they are available then yes, we should help, no question. We are however in a world where our governments are there to protect its people - but I am sure there are lot's of stuff going on behind the scenes for the less fortunate.
Basically there is a balance - however, personally, if we did have a glut (which of course we haven't) I would rather see the glut going to the likes of Chad.
As for global aid, correct me if I am wrong but I believe we are going down from 0.7% of gross national income to 0.5% which remains the best in Europe - if not the world??????? |
Fair comments on the whole.
Ref aid - no, plenty of countries are ahead of us, namely the Scandinavian countries. Figures are all out there if anyone wants to find them. | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 21:25 - Jan 27 with 885 views | vapour_trail |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 20:56 - Jan 27 by Lord_Lucan |
You're a bit bonkers BL but I like you.
You have a habit of promoting peoples takes on climate change whilst posting steak reviews from Argentina and driving gas guzzling motorbikes. At the same time (and I know) you do whatever you can to make your time productive to help others.
The thing is about shared vaccinations though is - let's say, complicated.
Oxford vaccine is profit free and costs peanuts when compared to others, so with regards to EU it isn't a case that they can't afford it but more of a case that they completely ballsed it up. You then have to ask yourself if they would have been so kind to have given us these vaccines if we had ballsed it up. Did Europe give us PPE when we destroyed our just out of date stocks in 2019?
Shall we give vaccines to Chad before our own? I can see the merits of global equivalence but the world simply doesn't work like that and let's face it, it would be unmanageable. If Chad can't afford vaccines but they are available then yes, we should help, no question. We are however in a world where our governments are there to protect its people - but I am sure there are lot's of stuff going on behind the scenes for the less fortunate.
Basically there is a balance - however, personally, if we did have a glut (which of course we haven't) I would rather see the glut going to the likes of Chad.
As for global aid, correct me if I am wrong but I believe we are going down from 0.7% of gross national income to 0.5% which remains the best in Europe - if not the world??????? |
I do find it a bit odd that we’ve furnished the Cayman Islands, free of charge, with such a generous helping of vaccines.
My wife has an uncle over there who manages offshore tax investments from his spot in the sun. Him and his wife are mid 60s with no health issues. They’ve each had a pair of jabs, as have their two daughters and respective partners.
Odd prioritisation, both over there and from our government. |  |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 21:26 - Jan 27 with 879 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 21:03 - Jan 27 by bluelagos |
Fair comments on the whole.
Ref aid - no, plenty of countries are ahead of us, namely the Scandinavian countries. Figures are all out there if anyone wants to find them. |
That may be true however I am fairy certain that our reduced budget is still twice the amount than Canada, USA, Spain, France, Italy, Japan etc etc.
The Elephant in the room however is how much of this money actually gets through to the people and why we should give so much aid to some countries.
Having worked for a great amount of time in Africa you will be aware of how little gets through to the people ----- and when it comes to India it is argued that we shouldn't give money to a country that has a perfectly serviceable Space and Nuclear programme - and do you know what? What is to disagree with.
Of course there is an argument that although the Indian government could afford to feed people but decide they would rather go to space then we should feed them but hang on a minute. Let's think about doing things another way?
Basically - foreign aid has never been aid to people, it is simply a bargaining exercise in trade negotiations. | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 21:31 - Jan 27 with 857 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 21:25 - Jan 27 by vapour_trail |
I do find it a bit odd that we’ve furnished the Cayman Islands, free of charge, with such a generous helping of vaccines.
My wife has an uncle over there who manages offshore tax investments from his spot in the sun. Him and his wife are mid 60s with no health issues. They’ve each had a pair of jabs, as have their two daughters and respective partners.
Odd prioritisation, both over there and from our government. |
Hey Vapes.
Is this definite info? Sounds a bit friend of a friend stuff?? | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 21:37 - Jan 27 with 847 views | bluelagos |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 21:26 - Jan 27 by Lord_Lucan |
That may be true however I am fairy certain that our reduced budget is still twice the amount than Canada, USA, Spain, France, Italy, Japan etc etc.
The Elephant in the room however is how much of this money actually gets through to the people and why we should give so much aid to some countries.
Having worked for a great amount of time in Africa you will be aware of how little gets through to the people ----- and when it comes to India it is argued that we shouldn't give money to a country that has a perfectly serviceable Space and Nuclear programme - and do you know what? What is to disagree with.
Of course there is an argument that although the Indian government could afford to feed people but decide they would rather go to space then we should feed them but hang on a minute. Let's think about doing things another way?
Basically - foreign aid has never been aid to people, it is simply a bargaining exercise in trade negotiations. |
So couple points
Ref India, no I don't accept we should cut aid to the poorest because their leaders spend money badly. The poor guy in southern India remains poor and in need of aid. It isn't his decision to spend on a space program anymore than a Liberian suffering from the decisions of warlords there.
And I definitely challenge your last point. I worked on a project in Malawi working to help enpower women from sexual violence. There was no discernable benefit to the uk in helping these women. Indeed Malawi is one of the poorest countries in the world and our trade is negligible.
Do accept much of our aid is increasingly targetted at areas as you describe, but it wasnt always thus. Same with the many projects I saw in Liberia up close. | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 21:56 - Jan 27 with 825 views | Lord_Lucan |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 21:37 - Jan 27 by bluelagos |
So couple points
Ref India, no I don't accept we should cut aid to the poorest because their leaders spend money badly. The poor guy in southern India remains poor and in need of aid. It isn't his decision to spend on a space program anymore than a Liberian suffering from the decisions of warlords there.
And I definitely challenge your last point. I worked on a project in Malawi working to help enpower women from sexual violence. There was no discernable benefit to the uk in helping these women. Indeed Malawi is one of the poorest countries in the world and our trade is negligible.
Do accept much of our aid is increasingly targetted at areas as you describe, but it wasnt always thus. Same with the many projects I saw in Liberia up close. |
Well I am completely happy to be told of the real situation by someone like you than what I read in any mainstream press because you had your feet on the ground and I applaud you for it***** although if we are honest we know that there are massive problems.
*****As much as I love India and Indian people I cannot get my mind around their situation. It is ridiculous and chucking money at it does not solve it. | |
| |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 22:16 - Jan 27 with 788 views | bluelagos |
| This EU demand for AZ vaccines is going to get very messy on 21:56 - Jan 27 by Lord_Lucan |
Well I am completely happy to be told of the real situation by someone like you than what I read in any mainstream press because you had your feet on the ground and I applaud you for it***** although if we are honest we know that there are massive problems.
*****As much as I love India and Indian people I cannot get my mind around their situation. It is ridiculous and chucking money at it does not solve it. |
I think the thing to remember about development is, it takes time. Think about Victorian Britain where we sent kids up chimneys whilst public health was on the floor. We didn't give women or ordinary men a vote. Street abortions were common place. Literacy levels on the floor. All similar(ish) issues to many places today.
And it took us how long before we sorted these issues? So why expect development to happen quickly? It won't, it needs sustained focus and patience.
And we have seen huge development. Look at literacy rates, average GDPs, life epectancies. Huge improvements in the past 50 years, just some way to go.
And I'll share with you what first prompted me to work in the NGO sector, it was sitting in a nice car, earning a fortune and passing a roundabout near Lagos airport each day. I'-d see mothers washing babies in puddles. Every day. And it slowly dawned on me the world is fcked. Utterlyy fcked. And I've seen little since to suggest otherwise tbh.
I know you are a good man Lucan, despite your trying to sometimes pretend otherwise. Your kids show that. So maybe there is a better way, just need to delve for the real answers I guess :-) | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
