| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions 23:10 - Feb 4 with 15668 views | StokieBlue |
So it looks like the Tory backbenchers and the Chancellor are applying pressure to try and get the government to bring forward the dates for considering easing the lockdown in England.
This is against the advice of SAGE who Sunak has stated are acting too conservatively. You also have Hunt coming out and saying lockdown should be continued until cases are to 1000 per day and Starmer saying we shouldn't open up too early like other times.
Then you have Chope on Newsnight saying that the 8th March should be "lockdown freedom day" when the public get their "liberties" back and other evidences showing that only 20% of people are following isolation orders.
The issue here is that if there are 20,000 cases a day, even if the R is low (say 0.6) then when you open up that is still a high baseline number of cases which can start growing exponentially again and it won't take long to get to high numbers. Counter to that, if you wait until cases are 5,000 per day it will take longer to reach higher cases and it will also allow more time for vaccinations before those cases reach a high level.
Interesting Chope refused to say what an acceptable number of cases were to open up, he said that isn't the point and that people should be able to exercise their freedom and even referred to the public as "prisoners" so that might give an indication where a number of Tory backbenchers are at the moment.
You also have Damien Green on Newsnight saying that this has to be the last lockdown for both economic and mental health reasons and in order for that to be the case we need come out in a cautious and pragmatic way due to the new variants.
So it seems there are two very solid blocks of opinion but very little agreement between the blocks.
What are peoples thoughts?
SB
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:11 - Feb 5 with 1239 views | Churchman |
Regardless of what Tory backbencher say, I wouldn’t change anything until 3 weeks after people 50+ have been vaccinated and the percentages of people with the virus are down to July/August. That includes restricting schooling. This is the very least. I’d actually prefer all adults be vaccinated first, but that’d take lockdown through to the autumn.
While letting old people die so kids can doss about at school instead of driving their parents nuts (as is happening to a buddy of mine), as one poster has suggested, is wrong, immoral and crude. Why not save time and bung them out on a cold hilltop like the Spartans did? That’d save the NHS too.
The work until lockdown eases has to be to ensure track and trace works. I believe it’s better than it was (90%?) but it has to match testing of which capacity is now excellent. And quarantine has to be enforced. Once the rate of infection is manageable, I’d make the penalties of breaking self isolation so punitive most people would stop taking the mickey. |  | | |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:14 - Feb 5 with 1227 views | bluelagos |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 23:18 - Feb 4 by StokieBlue |
Didn't know much about Chope but he came over awfully on Newsnight and looking at Wiki he seems like a rather odious individual:
- Tabled a bill to allow people to opt-out of the minimum wage
- Climate change denier
- Anti-same sex marriage
- Voted against companies being forced to declare a pay gap between men and women
- Supports the death penalty
Quite the rap sheet there.
SB |
Chope also has his thing where he objects to private members bills on a matter of principle and so he has single handily stopped many new laws that had cross party support from progressing.
He is a full time c*nit tbh.
His position last night seemed to me to be simply "We should open up on March 8th unless you can present the evidence that we shouldn't".
That in itself seems perfectly reasonable to me, albeit I suspect that even where the evidence is presented, he wouldn't then accept it.
And some evidence was presented by the female speaker (was she PHE?) namely that if we allow the disease to rip through the population (knowing all the most vulnerable are now protected) we risk new mutations.
Tbh am fiik what we should do as the damage being done to people's wellbeing is increasing by the day. We are social animals and we are building up more and more problems every day the lockdown continues.
As ever, those who are adamant we should be in lockdown or adamant we should not, are usually the people without a thorough appreciation of all the issues. There are incredibly strong arguments to continue with lockdown and incredibly strong arguments to end it. |  |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:14 - Feb 5 with 1226 views | hype313 |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:08 - Feb 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've thought you've been hard done by on here in the past and some of the abuse was a bit extreme, but you've lost all sympathy from me with this heartless, f2ckwitted comment. My dad's 84 and fit as a fiddle (for now). Who the f@ck are you to say he should die early so you and your mates can get down the pub.
Spruce's constant attacks on you bored me but he was right all along. You are scum. |
Yep, I also thought the weighing in was a little bit excessive, needless and borderlining abusive.
However, clearly his attitude stinks and it's a sad sign of people of his ilk who have such a selfish outlook on life. |  |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:16 - Feb 5 with 1218 views | 26_Paz |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:08 - Feb 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've thought you've been hard done by on here in the past and some of the abuse was a bit extreme, but you've lost all sympathy from me with this heartless, f2ckwitted comment. My dad's 84 and fit as a fiddle (for now). Who the f@ck are you to say he should die early so you and your mates can get down the pub.
Spruce's constant attacks on you bored me but he was right all along. You are scum. |
It’s not so that I can go to the pub ... no matter what people on here might think. It’s so a generation of children can be properly educated. It’s so that my mates who have lost their jobs can find employment again. It’s so that young adults may have a chance of finding a job.
And I’m not saying your dad should die early, I’m saying open up AFTER the over 70s are vaccinated. You must have missed that bit.
Glad your dad is fit and healthy. [Post edited 5 Feb 2021 8:18]
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:17 - Feb 5 with 1216 views | Herbivore |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:14 - Feb 5 by bluelagos |
Chope also has his thing where he objects to private members bills on a matter of principle and so he has single handily stopped many new laws that had cross party support from progressing.
He is a full time c*nit tbh.
His position last night seemed to me to be simply "We should open up on March 8th unless you can present the evidence that we shouldn't".
That in itself seems perfectly reasonable to me, albeit I suspect that even where the evidence is presented, he wouldn't then accept it.
And some evidence was presented by the female speaker (was she PHE?) namely that if we allow the disease to rip through the population (knowing all the most vulnerable are now protected) we risk new mutations.
Tbh am fiik what we should do as the damage being done to people's wellbeing is increasing by the day. We are social animals and we are building up more and more problems every day the lockdown continues.
As ever, those who are adamant we should be in lockdown or adamant we should not, are usually the people without a thorough appreciation of all the issues. There are incredibly strong arguments to continue with lockdown and incredibly strong arguments to end it. |
Ending it isn't sustainable, we will end up in lockdown again if we end it too soon. How will that impact on people? |  |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:19 - Feb 5 with 1203 views | Herbivore |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:16 - Feb 5 by 26_Paz |
It’s not so that I can go to the pub ... no matter what people on here might think. It’s so a generation of children can be properly educated. It’s so that my mates who have lost their jobs can find employment again. It’s so that young adults may have a chance of finding a job.
And I’m not saying your dad should die early, I’m saying open up AFTER the over 70s are vaccinated. You must have missed that bit.
Glad your dad is fit and healthy. [Post edited 5 Feb 2021 8:18]
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More lies. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:20 - Feb 5 with 1206 views | footers |
Well, this was a very predictable thread.
Let's kill war veterans so I can watch football in the pub. |  |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:25 - Feb 5 with 1181 views | 26_Paz |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:20 - Feb 5 by footers |
Well, this was a very predictable thread.
Let's kill war veterans so I can watch football in the pub. |
That’s what I’ve said. I’ve said there is a trade off between the absolute need to ease lockdown for the sake of younger people and an acceptable risk to older people. It’s a debate that needs to be had. I accept that I’m probably further towards opening early than the majority of people but coming out of this will involve risk. That will need to be accepted or we will stay like this forever. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:29 - Feb 5 with 1170 views | bluelagos |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:17 - Feb 5 by Herbivore |
Ending it isn't sustainable, we will end up in lockdown again if we end it too soon. How will that impact on people? |
You are right. If we end too soon, new mutation takes off that is immune to the vaccine we are back in lockdown...
But don't ignore the huge damage being done to our nations well being. Many people have clearly reached the point where they have had enough. That is not being selfish, it is the reality of their being denied simple things like seeing friends and family.
I think pubs, football etc. are simply going to have to wait. But outdoors mixing of small groups should be on the agenda asap. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:29 - Feb 5 with 1168 views | footers |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:25 - Feb 5 by 26_Paz |
That’s what I’ve said. I’ve said there is a trade off between the absolute need to ease lockdown for the sake of younger people and an acceptable risk to older people. It’s a debate that needs to be had. I accept that I’m probably further towards opening early than the majority of people but coming out of this will involve risk. That will need to be accepted or we will stay like this forever. |
Stop dressing up your own wanton selfishness as concern for others' wellbeing. You couldn't give a fck.
Anyway, it's not happening either way so tough titties, me old fruit. Let's all hope your 'mental health' can cope with a few more months yet. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:30 - Feb 5 with 1165 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:16 - Feb 5 by 26_Paz |
It’s not so that I can go to the pub ... no matter what people on here might think. It’s so a generation of children can be properly educated. It’s so that my mates who have lost their jobs can find employment again. It’s so that young adults may have a chance of finding a job.
And I’m not saying your dad should die early, I’m saying open up AFTER the over 70s are vaccinated. You must have missed that bit.
Glad your dad is fit and healthy. [Post edited 5 Feb 2021 8:18]
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I was quoting where you said a year of an over 80's life is not worth a year of a kid's education. Who are you to attest that? You're basically saying old people don't matter because they're old. Feck you.
No-one's talking about another year of this anyway. I am also someone who has lost their job and had their mental health impacted because of Covid. Another month or so of lockdown is going to make very little difference to that, but could make a HUGE difference to infection rates, strain on the NHS and deaths. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:32 - Feb 5 with 1150 views | 26_Paz |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:30 - Feb 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I was quoting where you said a year of an over 80's life is not worth a year of a kid's education. Who are you to attest that? You're basically saying old people don't matter because they're old. Feck you.
No-one's talking about another year of this anyway. I am also someone who has lost their job and had their mental health impacted because of Covid. Another month or so of lockdown is going to make very little difference to that, but could make a HUGE difference to infection rates, strain on the NHS and deaths. |
Personally, I think the impact on education and younger people in general has been overlooked. You obviously don’t agree with that, that’s fine. There’s no need to get all sweary. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:33 - Feb 5 with 1144 views | 26_Paz |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:29 - Feb 5 by footers |
Stop dressing up your own wanton selfishness as concern for others' wellbeing. You couldn't give a fck.
Anyway, it's not happening either way so tough titties, me old fruit. Let's all hope your 'mental health' can cope with a few more months yet. |
My mental health is fine. Thank you for asking. Hope yours is holding up as well. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:33 - Feb 5 with 1143 views | Churchman |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:16 - Feb 5 by 26_Paz |
It’s not so that I can go to the pub ... no matter what people on here might think. It’s so a generation of children can be properly educated. It’s so that my mates who have lost their jobs can find employment again. It’s so that young adults may have a chance of finding a job.
And I’m not saying your dad should die early, I’m saying open up AFTER the over 70s are vaccinated. You must have missed that bit.
Glad your dad is fit and healthy. [Post edited 5 Feb 2021 8:18]
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You are assuming this virus just affects and bumps off the old. While the percentages are higher for the over 60s, it effects people younger. The long term impact is unknown and the virus is mutating.
People transmit C19, not governments. Blaming the tories is fine but that won’t stop the hospitals filling up. The chain has to be broken so that means lockdown plus vaccination. If schooling is interrupted, my taxes go up and national debt grows, so be it. It has to be done. | | | |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:34 - Feb 5 with 1139 views | hype313 |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:32 - Feb 5 by 26_Paz |
Personally, I think the impact on education and younger people in general has been overlooked. You obviously don’t agree with that, that’s fine. There’s no need to get all sweary. |
Burt what about their mental health if we open up too soon and then face another lockdown? surely that would be even worse.
The vaccines are scaling at a rate, we have light at the end of the tunnel, things will improve, just be patient. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:35 - Feb 5 with 1134 views | 26_Paz |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:34 - Feb 5 by hype313 |
Burt what about their mental health if we open up too soon and then face another lockdown? surely that would be even worse.
The vaccines are scaling at a rate, we have light at the end of the tunnel, things will improve, just be patient. |
That’s a good point, and one I hadn’t considered. That should be taken into account when deciding when to ease restrictions, I agree. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:36 - Feb 5 with 1132 views | Herbivore |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:29 - Feb 5 by bluelagos |
You are right. If we end too soon, new mutation takes off that is immune to the vaccine we are back in lockdown...
But don't ignore the huge damage being done to our nations well being. Many people have clearly reached the point where they have had enough. That is not being selfish, it is the reality of their being denied simple things like seeing friends and family.
I think pubs, football etc. are simply going to have to wait. But outdoors mixing of small groups should be on the agenda asap. |
Do you think any of us are enjoying this? I've not seen anyone other than my partner in months. Working from home is exhausting, seeing the same four walls every day. It's tough on everyone. But that in itself is not a good reason to go too early on easing restrictions.
We have seen the costs of doing so, we have one of the worst death tolls in the world and our economy has been amongst the hardest hit, we've had to go back into full lockdown twice because of our handling of it. We need to learn from that and not be too hasty in coming out of lockdown just because lockdown is hard. This government has always been too willing to play to the crowd and do what's easy rather than what's right.
If we come out of lockdown too soon and end up going back in again down the line then for me that is a far worse outcome by far than being cautious now and putting up with restrictions for a while longer. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:37 - Feb 5 with 1133 views | footers |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:33 - Feb 5 by 26_Paz |
My mental health is fine. Thank you for asking. Hope yours is holding up as well. |
Tip top, cheers.
But you do make a good point on education. I can only assume you missed a fair bit of schooling too, so I can accept your concerns there. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:38 - Feb 5 with 1131 views | urbanblue |
I think if ever evidence is needed as to how lockdown is affecting people's mental health I think they would just need to read this thread. |  | | |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:38 - Feb 5 with 1128 views | 26_Paz |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:37 - Feb 5 by footers |
Tip top, cheers.
But you do make a good point on education. I can only assume you missed a fair bit of schooling too, so I can accept your concerns there. |
Just the two degrees for me, thanks mate. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:38 - Feb 5 with 1129 views | m14_blue |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 23:59 - Feb 4 by 26_Paz |
So, one of my mates is off work with depression. His girlfriend left him just before all this and he just can’t cope being at home on his own. He’s now so pumped full of happy pills it’s like talking to a different person. All he needs is the routine of normal life and he’ll be fine. Another one of my mates has saved for years to buy his own place. He’s been out of work for 6 months and has lost most of his savings. His girlfriend is so depressed she doesn’t get out of bed most days. I want this to end as soon as possible. Basically I believe stopping younger people wasting their lives is more important than keeping a small number of older people alive. |
I sympathise with your friends Paz, lockdowns are rubbish I don’t think anyone’s pretending otherwise. That’s the thing with a global pandemic though, they tend to be a bit rubbish.
Speaking from experience though, you know what is 10000x worse for someone’s mental health? Losing a parent 10-15 years earlier than you expected to. Being unable to be with your mum when the doctors tell her that she’s going to die. Your dad, after 45 years of marriage, being unable to hold her hand in her final days. I’m sorry to be harsh but that’s the reality of what happens to thousands of families when we release restrictions too soon. These aren’t numbers on a spreadsheet or a graph, they’re people who want to live, who want to see their grandkids grow up, their kids get married and spend time with the people they love.
I’m glad you have seen the immense damage a mental health crisis can do to people though, and the importance of education. I trust that you will vote accordingly in the future (not for the party that decimated mental health care and the education system). [Post edited 5 Feb 2021 8:43]
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:40 - Feb 5 with 1125 views | Herbivore |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:35 - Feb 5 by 26_Paz |
That’s a good point, and one I hadn’t considered. That should be taken into account when deciding when to ease restrictions, I agree. |
You genuinely hadn't thought of that? Had your head been up your arse for the last year? | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:40 - Feb 5 with 1122 views | footers |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:38 - Feb 5 by 26_Paz |
Just the two degrees for me, thanks mate. |
Yeah, in surveying. Maybe stick to tape measures and not public health matters. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:41 - Feb 5 with 1117 views | 26_Paz |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 08:40 - Feb 5 by Herbivore |
You genuinely hadn't thought of that? Had your head been up your arse for the last year? |
You should get those anger issues looked at | |
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