| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying 09:17 - Feb 10 with 3870 views | giant_stow |
About visiting a red list country? Seems like some tories have got the hump and think it's way too harsh.
Personally I think it's spot on - people shouldn't lie about this and if they do, it could in theory cause many deaths. |  |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 09:26 - Feb 10 with 2504 views | Guthrum |
Some Tories seem willing to sacrifice the entire country for their libertarian and profiteering principles.
You've got to make it tough otherwise there's no point. Fines are either meaninglessly small or uncollectable. |  |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 09:28 - Feb 10 with 2492 views | Keno |
Not as bad as a 5 year contract for being crap |  |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 09:30 - Feb 10 with 2458 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
10 years seems excessive but it’s the maximum sentence and therefore would probably only apply in an extreme case - in reality I would expect anyone caught to still get a much shorter term (or perhaps still a very large fine)
However having such a big number is a deterrent, and ultimately if you don’t want to be jailed for 10 years then don’t go abroad during a pandemic and then lie about where you’ve come from to try and get around quarantine rules on your return. So no I don’t have a problem with it, personally |  |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 09:30 - Feb 10 with 2473 views | BloomBlue |
I thought it was 'Up to' 10 years, so a judge doesn't have to give the full 10 years they could give 2 months, although there may be a minimum term as part of that I've not seen |  | | |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 09:31 - Feb 10 with 2468 views | StokieBlue |
Lockdown has shown that woolly fines or deterrents don't work for the people who are willing to break the rules. Even now there are constant news articles about people getting fined 800+ for parties.
Given most people won't break the rules this won't affect them so I don't have a problem with it.
SB |  | | |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 09:32 - Feb 10 with 2452 views | factual_blue |
So long as norfolk is on the list... |  |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 09:44 - Feb 10 with 2413 views | Churchman |
I agree. For too long people have thought the rules apply to others. C-19 is not spread by the useless politicians, the Cylons or the Pope. It’s spread by the people of this country who think its not their responsibility. People like my neighbours who went abroad before Christmas and ignored the rules when they got back. ‘It was only an ‘oliday wern it’’Didnt do no one no arm’’gotta earn a livin’ was the attitude. They were also at a New Year’s Eve party. ‘Nobody else’s business’.
But it is. And if people are caught telling lies, then they pay the penalty. They’ve been told. It’s not difficult. There is no excuse for it, any more than there was an excuse for that apology of a runt Cummings’ behaviour last year.
As for ‘my rights’ and all that stuff, where are my rights if they come back from Majorca and infect me? Same with vaccination. I’d make it compulsory unless there was a medical reason not to have it. If you refuse, quarantine at cost to the individual concerned until the pandemic is over and signing to say you don’t want NHS treatment if you get Covid and prove you have money for your own funeral. |  | | |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 09:46 - Feb 10 with 2389 views | MonkeyAlan |
About time we got tough. Stay at blo0dy home if you don't need to go somewhere on business. A holiday isn't necessary. It's a luxury that no one needs right now. |  | | |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:03 - Feb 10 with 2349 views | TractorWood |
Spot on? It's higher than some firearm and sex offences.
It's a brazen attempt to assert authority. No judge would entertain anything close to this maximum.
On the plus side it should act as a deterrent to anyone wanting to flit off to Greece like last year. [Post edited 10 Feb 2021 10:04]
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:06 - Feb 10 with 2333 views | StokieBlue |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:03 - Feb 10 by TractorWood |
Spot on? It's higher than some firearm and sex offences.
It's a brazen attempt to assert authority. No judge would entertain anything close to this maximum.
On the plus side it should act as a deterrent to anyone wanting to flit off to Greece like last year. [Post edited 10 Feb 2021 10:04]
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Greece isn't a red listed country.
This is specifically for if you go to Brazil or SA and then come back via Paris to try and make out you haven't been there and then lie on entry by not declaring you've been to somewhere with the E484K mutation.
The mutation is potentially extremely dangerous for the vaccination programme, it could undermine it all and as such lying about being to these reasons is an incredibly selfish act and also a dangerous one for others. The deterrent needs to be high and to be honest there needs to be a minimum sentence of at least a few months (as you say) to ensure it's enforced.
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:14 - Feb 10 with 2298 views | Mookamoo |
It seems heavy, but Gross Negligence Manslaughter has a maximum tariff of life. I think Scotland has Involuntary culpable homicide which is also up to life.
10 years for anyone entering the country, knowing they could infect a large number of people which will ultimately lead to large numbers of deaths? Seems fair. |  | | |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:16 - Feb 10 with 2291 views | TractorWood |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:06 - Feb 10 by StokieBlue |
Greece isn't a red listed country.
This is specifically for if you go to Brazil or SA and then come back via Paris to try and make out you haven't been there and then lie on entry by not declaring you've been to somewhere with the E484K mutation.
The mutation is potentially extremely dangerous for the vaccination programme, it could undermine it all and as such lying about being to these reasons is an incredibly selfish act and also a dangerous one for others. The deterrent needs to be high and to be honest there needs to be a minimum sentence of at least a few months (as you say) to ensure it's enforced.
SB |
I meant in the wider sense. Your average person on the street isn't going to read the detail. They are just going to see that they shouldn't go abroad.
I don't disagree with any of your points. The mutation is really dangerous. That maximum sentence is political though, which is dangerous. [Post edited 10 Feb 2021 10:16]
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:17 - Feb 10 with 2275 views | chicoazul |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 09:26 - Feb 10 by Guthrum |
Some Tories seem willing to sacrifice the entire country for their libertarian and profiteering principles.
You've got to make it tough otherwise there's no point. Fines are either meaninglessly small or uncollectable. |
What’s libertarian about it? |  |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:17 - Feb 10 with 2277 views | StokieBlue |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:16 - Feb 10 by TractorWood |
I meant in the wider sense. Your average person on the street isn't going to read the detail. They are just going to see that they shouldn't go abroad.
I don't disagree with any of your points. The mutation is really dangerous. That maximum sentence is political though, which is dangerous. [Post edited 10 Feb 2021 10:16]
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As an aside, perhaps it's time the "average person" started to take an interest in details?
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:18 - Feb 10 with 2273 views | bluelagos |
For me it's a demonstration of how utterly inept our approach to quarantining has been.
We have been late all the way and are now desperately trying to catch up and as ever, playing to the audience in pretending we are on top of things.
So my nephew went to Korea a couple of months ago. They had a quarantine system that meant he was met off the plane and immediately taken to a hotel for his quarantine. There was no way he could avoid it, so there was no need for harsh penalties.
Or look at Holland, where they use phones to check you are indeed quarantining. Lots of countries have schemes that work.
We, by contrast, let people fill in a form themselves with little or no checks where you actually came from and whether or not you are actually quarantining. We have left it to individuals to be honest and guess what, some aren't.
So we need a sledge hammer to crack a nut. 10 years is a similar sentence to extreme rapists would receive. Proportionality is important and I heard this morning less than 5 out 190 £10k fines have been paid. Because they are being contested and are often ruled disproportionate by the courts. So the idea these will be enforced and ruled legal, yeah right.
But it plays well, it plays well to people who think we need to come down hard, as opposed to say actually coming up with a quarantine model that works. Personally I'd prefer a model that works rather than one that gives the far right "hang em and flog brigade" a hard on.
But that's just me, am sure the majority will support it and quite a few will be frothing at the mouth with positive excitement at the thought. Unfortunately for them it is unlikely to actually have much effect given that there will soon enough be travel corridors etc. probably based on vaccine passport type approach.
And unfortunately for all of us, it doesn't change the past 12 months of largely unhindered access to the UK in stark comparison to many other places.
Those are my thoughts. Not going to get into an argument/debate as am sure others will think differently. |  |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:24 - Feb 10 with 2252 views | TractorWood |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:18 - Feb 10 by bluelagos |
For me it's a demonstration of how utterly inept our approach to quarantining has been.
We have been late all the way and are now desperately trying to catch up and as ever, playing to the audience in pretending we are on top of things.
So my nephew went to Korea a couple of months ago. They had a quarantine system that meant he was met off the plane and immediately taken to a hotel for his quarantine. There was no way he could avoid it, so there was no need for harsh penalties.
Or look at Holland, where they use phones to check you are indeed quarantining. Lots of countries have schemes that work.
We, by contrast, let people fill in a form themselves with little or no checks where you actually came from and whether or not you are actually quarantining. We have left it to individuals to be honest and guess what, some aren't.
So we need a sledge hammer to crack a nut. 10 years is a similar sentence to extreme rapists would receive. Proportionality is important and I heard this morning less than 5 out 190 £10k fines have been paid. Because they are being contested and are often ruled disproportionate by the courts. So the idea these will be enforced and ruled legal, yeah right.
But it plays well, it plays well to people who think we need to come down hard, as opposed to say actually coming up with a quarantine model that works. Personally I'd prefer a model that works rather than one that gives the far right "hang em and flog brigade" a hard on.
But that's just me, am sure the majority will support it and quite a few will be frothing at the mouth with positive excitement at the thought. Unfortunately for them it is unlikely to actually have much effect given that there will soon enough be travel corridors etc. probably based on vaccine passport type approach.
And unfortunately for all of us, it doesn't change the past 12 months of largely unhindered access to the UK in stark comparison to many other places.
Those are my thoughts. Not going to get into an argument/debate as am sure others will think differently. |
I agree. It's the vintage over compensation for months of failure.
Establish the problem, sort out a process that is fool proof and stick to it. | |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:30 - Feb 10 with 2220 views | bluelagos |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:24 - Feb 10 by TractorWood |
I agree. It's the vintage over compensation for months of failure.
Establish the problem, sort out a process that is fool proof and stick to it. |
Exactly.
Competence would nice. But failing that lets play to the gallery... | |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:31 - Feb 10 with 2222 views | Guthrum |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:18 - Feb 10 by bluelagos |
For me it's a demonstration of how utterly inept our approach to quarantining has been.
We have been late all the way and are now desperately trying to catch up and as ever, playing to the audience in pretending we are on top of things.
So my nephew went to Korea a couple of months ago. They had a quarantine system that meant he was met off the plane and immediately taken to a hotel for his quarantine. There was no way he could avoid it, so there was no need for harsh penalties.
Or look at Holland, where they use phones to check you are indeed quarantining. Lots of countries have schemes that work.
We, by contrast, let people fill in a form themselves with little or no checks where you actually came from and whether or not you are actually quarantining. We have left it to individuals to be honest and guess what, some aren't.
So we need a sledge hammer to crack a nut. 10 years is a similar sentence to extreme rapists would receive. Proportionality is important and I heard this morning less than 5 out 190 £10k fines have been paid. Because they are being contested and are often ruled disproportionate by the courts. So the idea these will be enforced and ruled legal, yeah right.
But it plays well, it plays well to people who think we need to come down hard, as opposed to say actually coming up with a quarantine model that works. Personally I'd prefer a model that works rather than one that gives the far right "hang em and flog brigade" a hard on.
But that's just me, am sure the majority will support it and quite a few will be frothing at the mouth with positive excitement at the thought. Unfortunately for them it is unlikely to actually have much effect given that there will soon enough be travel corridors etc. probably based on vaccine passport type approach.
And unfortunately for all of us, it doesn't change the past 12 months of largely unhindered access to the UK in stark comparison to many other places.
Those are my thoughts. Not going to get into an argument/debate as am sure others will think differently. |
Lithuania had such a hotel quarantine system going on for all incomers back in March (friend of mine went there to see her dangerously ill father).
If the Government can shove asylum seekers in old army barracks (sometimes for years), then don't see why they can't do something similar for incoming international travellers. [Post edited 10 Feb 2021 10:33]
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:31 - Feb 10 with 2219 views | footers |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:17 - Feb 10 by StokieBlue |
As an aside, perhaps it's time the "average person" started to take an interest in details?
SB |
The average person knows the details well enough when they provide a loophole to do whatever they please. |  |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:43 - Feb 10 with 2185 views | Guthrum |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:17 - Feb 10 by chicoazul |
What’s libertarian about it? |
About wanting to open up because a mere pandemic with people dying should not mean any constraints upon personal behaviour? Libertarianism is one of the flags they are marching under, even if it is, perhaps, only one aspect of what a political theorist would recognise by the term. | |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:44 - Feb 10 with 2177 views | chicoazul |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:43 - Feb 10 by Guthrum |
About wanting to open up because a mere pandemic with people dying should not mean any constraints upon personal behaviour? Libertarianism is one of the flags they are marching under, even if it is, perhaps, only one aspect of what a political theorist would recognise by the term. |
Ah beg your pardon
I thought you meant the quarantine was libertarian! | |
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:58 - Feb 10 with 2124 views | Churchman |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:16 - Feb 10 by TractorWood |
I meant in the wider sense. Your average person on the street isn't going to read the detail. They are just going to see that they shouldn't go abroad.
I don't disagree with any of your points. The mutation is really dangerous. That maximum sentence is political though, which is dangerous. [Post edited 10 Feb 2021 10:16]
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Ignorance of the law is not a defence and never has been. Maybe if the average person in the street took a bit more responsibility, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are. | | | |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 11:01 - Feb 10 with 2107 views | DebsyAngel |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 09:44 - Feb 10 by Churchman |
I agree. For too long people have thought the rules apply to others. C-19 is not spread by the useless politicians, the Cylons or the Pope. It’s spread by the people of this country who think its not their responsibility. People like my neighbours who went abroad before Christmas and ignored the rules when they got back. ‘It was only an ‘oliday wern it’’Didnt do no one no arm’’gotta earn a livin’ was the attitude. They were also at a New Year’s Eve party. ‘Nobody else’s business’.
But it is. And if people are caught telling lies, then they pay the penalty. They’ve been told. It’s not difficult. There is no excuse for it, any more than there was an excuse for that apology of a runt Cummings’ behaviour last year.
As for ‘my rights’ and all that stuff, where are my rights if they come back from Majorca and infect me? Same with vaccination. I’d make it compulsory unless there was a medical reason not to have it. If you refuse, quarantine at cost to the individual concerned until the pandemic is over and signing to say you don’t want NHS treatment if you get Covid and prove you have money for your own funeral. |
Absolutely agree 100% with all you have said there.
The ones next door to us are similar - going out several times a DAY. Pretence for at least 4 of those times that it's for "work" even though no evidence. They treat the whole thing as a joke, while I am quaking in fear every day of this never ending saga. |  | | |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 11:12 - Feb 10 with 2084 views | giant_stow |
| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 10:18 - Feb 10 by bluelagos |
For me it's a demonstration of how utterly inept our approach to quarantining has been.
We have been late all the way and are now desperately trying to catch up and as ever, playing to the audience in pretending we are on top of things.
So my nephew went to Korea a couple of months ago. They had a quarantine system that meant he was met off the plane and immediately taken to a hotel for his quarantine. There was no way he could avoid it, so there was no need for harsh penalties.
Or look at Holland, where they use phones to check you are indeed quarantining. Lots of countries have schemes that work.
We, by contrast, let people fill in a form themselves with little or no checks where you actually came from and whether or not you are actually quarantining. We have left it to individuals to be honest and guess what, some aren't.
So we need a sledge hammer to crack a nut. 10 years is a similar sentence to extreme rapists would receive. Proportionality is important and I heard this morning less than 5 out 190 £10k fines have been paid. Because they are being contested and are often ruled disproportionate by the courts. So the idea these will be enforced and ruled legal, yeah right.
But it plays well, it plays well to people who think we need to come down hard, as opposed to say actually coming up with a quarantine model that works. Personally I'd prefer a model that works rather than one that gives the far right "hang em and flog brigade" a hard on.
But that's just me, am sure the majority will support it and quite a few will be frothing at the mouth with positive excitement at the thought. Unfortunately for them it is unlikely to actually have much effect given that there will soon enough be travel corridors etc. probably based on vaccine passport type approach.
And unfortunately for all of us, it doesn't change the past 12 months of largely unhindered access to the UK in stark comparison to many other places.
Those are my thoughts. Not going to get into an argument/debate as am sure others will think differently. |
I've largely agreed with your takes on this whole crisis, so that stopped me in my tracks a bit!
However, I think asking people not to lie about something so serious is reasonable in this case.
You’re right to point out that we’ve been exceedingly slow to sort this out, but then again, I think the new variants and the danger they pose is what’s changed and made it all more urgent. Our whole vaccination programme depends on keeping those nasties out, but there’s a massive weak spot there that needs to be patched.
In terms of freedoms and proportionality, I would argue that marching people from a plane to quarantine, or spying on them via their phones is actually more heavy handed than trusting people to do the right thing / punishing them badly if they break that trust
Also, given that one infected & lying traveller could in theory bring down the whole vaccination programme, I do think a ten year limit on sentencing is proportional. Other crimes which carry such a sentence actually seem to pale in comparison to potentially causing 10s of thousands of deaths or causing the reintroduction of lockdown (to take my argument to the extreme).
Your point about unpaid fines really just supports the need for a sanction that will actually make people stop and think.
All they’re asking is for returning travellers to tell the truth and given that very very few people should be travelling in any case, this is fair. [Post edited 10 Feb 2021 11:23]
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| How's everyone feel about this 10 year sentence for lying on 11:20 - Feb 10 with 2059 views | Lord_Lucan |
10 years is a maximum sentence and in reality I'm not sure anyone would get more than a couple of months. It is obviously a deterrent which may or may not work, it probably will to a degree but it's a bit over the top as a deterrent and is no more than a headline grabber.
I am more bothered about the £1750 for a 10 night stay without the use of any facilities, that seems a bit over the top to me, I would say £1000 would be fairer.
Although one would have to question why anyone really needs to travel at the moment.
A listener called up James O Brien this morning with a good Idea. He suggested that we should take peoples passports away for 10 years. That is also a bit excessive IMHO but I would say that a mandatory loss of passport for 2 years with a fine and possible bit of time for extreme or persistent offenders would be about right. |  |
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