| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 21:16 - Mar 15 with 1255 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 21:05 - Mar 15 by ZXBlue |
Not a single person on here has ever said that. |
There have been several occasions when me asking questions about the vaccine has been met with...."well it's better than dying" or similar. Perhaps I should have waited for it to happen again rather than the much more mild "Well it's better than getting Covid" . However I have already explained why even this is not necessarily accurate and even called myself pedantic so will leave it at that. |  |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 21:20 - Mar 15 with 1250 views | bluelagos |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 20:27 - Mar 15 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I fully concur and have no issue with that. However as someone who has every word on this examined for what I have said/might be saying/really meant my point is a very simple one.
If you have the vaccine and your only side effect is a sore arm then that is worse than the same person having Covid asymptomatically. I only make this point because people repeatedly push the case for vaccines as if the only possible alternative is death. There is enough of a fear psychology around this pandemic as it is without adding to it with this vaccine or death by covid binary narrative. I have ignored it again and again but had enough of it today having witnessed one too many client today almost paralysed by fear.
Edit...to add "the same person"
Edit2...I even fully accept that the point I am making could be considered pedantic, it is definitely not some sort of antivax point...it is simply about trying to bring some balance to polarised extremes strangely enough! [Post edited 15 Mar 2021 21:35]
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Using fear in some of the public messaging has been exactly that. No arguments from me.
And there is clearly a negative unintended consequence of that, highly damaging in some cases, clearly. |  |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:09 - Mar 15 with 1200 views | GlasgowBlue |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 19:23 - Mar 15 by BanksterDebtSlave |
That in no way counters my basic point that God knows how many people here and globally have had the virus asympomatically so having the vaccine is not necessarily better than having Covid. |
But it’s not just deaths is it? It’s schools not being open, businesses going bankrupt, people losing jobs..
So yes, any risk of the vaccine may have, and it has yet to be proven, is far more preferable to a large number of the population getting COVID. [Post edited 15 Mar 2021 22:25]
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:13 - Mar 15 with 1195 views | GlasgowBlue |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 19:40 - Mar 15 by bluelagos |
Some basic maths Baankster.
We think around 10% of Brits have had Cv. So 6m people and 125k dead.
We know 25m have had a vaccination. There are possibly a few deaths, arguably none at all given some people die of dvt normally.
The differences are so great, that you simply cant credibly claim the dangers of the vaccine are anywhere close to the dangers of CV. |
Here is the thing that I don’t get. Pfizer have reported 25 cases of bloodclotting in 11 million vaccinations. AZ have reported 28 cases in 10 million.
Why are the EU countries suspending AZ but not Pfizer? It doesn’t make any logical sense. | |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:18 - Mar 15 with 1196 views | StokieBlue |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 19:23 - Mar 15 by BanksterDebtSlave |
That in no way counters my basic point that God knows how many people here and globally have had the virus asympomatically so having the vaccine is not necessarily better than having Covid. |
Given 0 people globally have been confirmed as having dying as a result of having the vaccine there is no way your statement can be true.
You have asserted a correlation without any evidence. Probably best to wait for that evidence to exist before saying a vaccine is worse than the disease. Even then, given the amount of vaccinations done it would still be a false assertion.
You can't really cite things in the single case like you have because these things have to be looked at numerically over the whole population.
SB [Post edited 15 Mar 2021 22:20]
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:18 - Mar 15 with 1191 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:09 - Mar 15 by GlasgowBlue |
But it’s not just deaths is it? It’s schools not being open, businesses going bankrupt, people losing jobs..
So yes, any risk of the vaccine may have, and it has yet to be proven, is far more preferable to a large number of the population getting COVID. [Post edited 15 Mar 2021 22:25]
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It's ok, I fully understand it is far too nuanced for yourself!
You may wish to revisit the second sentence. | |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:20 - Mar 15 with 1184 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:13 - Mar 15 by GlasgowBlue |
Here is the thing that I don’t get. Pfizer have reported 25 cases of bloodclotting in 11 million vaccinations. AZ have reported 28 cases in 10 million.
Why are the EU countries suspending AZ but not Pfizer? It doesn’t make any logical sense. |
Maybe they have concerns about batch variance. | |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:23 - Mar 15 with 1179 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:18 - Mar 15 by StokieBlue |
Given 0 people globally have been confirmed as having dying as a result of having the vaccine there is no way your statement can be true.
You have asserted a correlation without any evidence. Probably best to wait for that evidence to exist before saying a vaccine is worse than the disease. Even then, given the amount of vaccinations done it would still be a false assertion.
You can't really cite things in the single case like you have because these things have to be looked at numerically over the whole population.
SB [Post edited 15 Mar 2021 22:20]
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I actually can, and I did!
I also did not say that the vaccine overall at a population level is worse than the disease! | |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:25 - Mar 15 with 1172 views | StokieBlue |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:23 - Mar 15 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I actually can, and I did!
I also did not say that the vaccine overall at a population level is worse than the disease! |
But if you say it's worse for an individual then the logical conclusion of that stance is that it's worse for the population because why should someone else have it if you think it's worse than the disease?
In that scenario you end up with nobody vaccinated and the disease clearly being worse.
SB | | | |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:35 - Mar 15 with 1153 views | Churchman |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:13 - Mar 15 by GlasgowBlue |
Here is the thing that I don’t get. Pfizer have reported 25 cases of bloodclotting in 11 million vaccinations. AZ have reported 28 cases in 10 million.
Why are the EU countries suspending AZ but not Pfizer? It doesn’t make any logical sense. |
Politically for the EU, it makes all the sense in the world for a variety of reasons.
I will be interested to see if the EU releases the AZ doses held back from Australia a week or two ago. I presume since the EU are not wanting them, they’ll be on their way there within a few days. |  | | |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:36 - Mar 15 with 1152 views | giant_stow |
This is the first time I've seen a guesstimate for a cost in deaths of delaying vacineations:
"Prof Jean-François Timsit, a vaccinations expert, told Radio France that "if you vaccinate 100,000 people over 50 years today rather than tomorrow, you have 15 fewer deaths". With Germany having about 1.7 million doses in fridges and not being used, that could cost 1,785 lives"
Sorry if this is old or inaccurate.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/15/germany-becomes-latest-country-suspe |  |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:36 - Mar 15 with 1148 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:25 - Mar 15 by StokieBlue |
But if you say it's worse for an individual then the logical conclusion of that stance is that it's worse for the population because why should someone else have it if you think it's worse than the disease?
In that scenario you end up with nobody vaccinated and the disease clearly being worse.
SB |
No I said that it can be worse for an individual. You hopefully accept that globally there have been millions of asymptomatic cases? | |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:40 - Mar 15 with 1137 views | StokieBlue |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:36 - Mar 15 by BanksterDebtSlave |
No I said that it can be worse for an individual. You hopefully accept that globally there have been millions of asymptomatic cases? |
We seem to have gone back to March 2020 when you were playing down the virus.
125,000 UK deaths seem to have made no difference.
There have been 10m+ vaccinations of AZ in the UK with less than 30 effects reported. Surely you accept that's a miniscule chance?
SB | | | |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:50 - Mar 15 with 1108 views | Churchman |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:40 - Mar 15 by StokieBlue |
We seem to have gone back to March 2020 when you were playing down the virus.
125,000 UK deaths seem to have made no difference.
There have been 10m+ vaccinations of AZ in the UK with less than 30 effects reported. Surely you accept that's a miniscule chance?
SB |
Even if you added 10,000 to the ‘effects reported’ total, that would represent a risk of 0.1003%. Still a tiny percentage. The facts quite literally speak for themselves in this instance. | | | |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:52 - Mar 15 with 1107 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:40 - Mar 15 by StokieBlue |
We seem to have gone back to March 2020 when you were playing down the virus.
125,000 UK deaths seem to have made no difference.
There have been 10m+ vaccinations of AZ in the UK with less than 30 effects reported. Surely you accept that's a miniscule chance?
SB |
I think that is the sound of someone changing the point! Inaccurately at that. | |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:52 - Mar 15 with 1104 views | bluelagos |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:13 - Mar 15 by GlasgowBlue |
Here is the thing that I don’t get. Pfizer have reported 25 cases of bloodclotting in 11 million vaccinations. AZ have reported 28 cases in 10 million.
Why are the EU countries suspending AZ but not Pfizer? It doesn’t make any logical sense. |
People are suggesting it's political...I can't see any other explanation. If there is one it's not apparent to me.
And if it is political, it is contemptible given the impact of delaying vaccinations is more people die.
Maybe we just need to do a quick deal - trade a chunk of our Pfizer orders for their AZ ones - and accept that as a pragmatic solution that is best for everyone? | |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 23:45 - Mar 15 with 1080 views | JDB23 |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:36 - Mar 15 by BanksterDebtSlave |
No I said that it can be worse for an individual. You hopefully accept that globally there have been millions of asymptomatic cases? |
Has it ever been confirmed that having COVID once gives you natural immunity and 100% prevents you from getting it again? Even if you were asymptomatic, I'm sure there is a chance you could get infected again only worse, especially considering different variants.
Also, as much as we don't know about the long term effects of the vaccine, we also don't know the long term effects of COVID. Who knows, someone who is asymptomatic now could end up developing breathing problems in 5 years. There are still too many unknowns to categorically say one thing is better than the other, appreciate the point you are trying to make though. |  | | |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 04:49 - Mar 16 with 1023 views | urbanblue |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 16:21 - Mar 15 by StokieBlue |
Well the issue is that blood clots haven't increased. There are approximately at the level that they are at every year.
I suspect there may be something in your point though, especially around DVT.
SB |
The thing is that these type of blood clots are 'highly unusual'. It will be interesting to see how many that are not vaccinated show the same results. No doubt this will be part of the investigation.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/health/astrazeneca-vacci [Post edited 16 Mar 2021 5:58]
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 05:16 - Mar 16 with 1002 views | Ryorry |
Some interesting points being made on this thread, including a few people apparently having genetic blood clotting predispositions -
[Post edited 16 Mar 2021 5:18]
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 07:14 - Mar 16 with 951 views | StokieBlue |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:52 - Mar 15 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I think that is the sound of someone changing the point! Inaccurately at that. |
I disagree.
If you're making the point that the vaccine could be worse than the disease for something that has killed so many then that's playing it down to me.
Your whole point is weird because if everyone thought like you then nobody would be vaccinated and we would be a very poor situation.
SB | | | |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 07:39 - Mar 16 with 932 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 07:14 - Mar 16 by StokieBlue |
I disagree.
If you're making the point that the vaccine could be worse than the disease for something that has killed so many then that's playing it down to me.
Your whole point is weird because if everyone thought like you then nobody would be vaccinated and we would be a very poor situation.
SB |
Morning Stokie....imagine thinking like me and getting vaccinated, how weird would that be!
For an individual that can indeed be the outcome though but you pays your money and makes your choice. | |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 07:46 - Mar 16 with 929 views | jimmyvet |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 22:13 - Mar 15 by GlasgowBlue |
Here is the thing that I don’t get. Pfizer have reported 25 cases of bloodclotting in 11 million vaccinations. AZ have reported 28 cases in 10 million.
Why are the EU countries suspending AZ but not Pfizer? It doesn’t make any logical sense. |
GB you do know the answer though don’t you ! It’s a smoke screen to cover their ongoing incompetence and have somebody to blame. Some data today putting a figure of 1700 deaths a day in over 50s due to COVID based on their decision across these European nations that have suspended the vaccine, It would appear madness and very sad. [Post edited 16 Mar 2021 7:48]
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 07:57 - Mar 16 with 912 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 23:45 - Mar 15 by JDB23 |
Has it ever been confirmed that having COVID once gives you natural immunity and 100% prevents you from getting it again? Even if you were asymptomatic, I'm sure there is a chance you could get infected again only worse, especially considering different variants.
Also, as much as we don't know about the long term effects of the vaccine, we also don't know the long term effects of COVID. Who knows, someone who is asymptomatic now could end up developing breathing problems in 5 years. There are still too many unknowns to categorically say one thing is better than the other, appreciate the point you are trying to make though. |
I believe it is the case that neither having Covid nor the vaccine confers long term immunity. | |
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| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 08:08 - Mar 16 with 896 views | mikeybloo88 |
I've just watched GMB interviewing one of our top doctors and he was very reassuring about he AZ vaccine. But today, as with last night when he was on, he wasn't asked about clotting statistics in people vaccinated with he Pfizer or other vaccines for comparison. It is reported that incidences are similar across all vaccines. It would of course be completely inappropriate and incorrect to raise any doubts about the other vaccines and I'm glad we're rising above it, but it must be tempting for our profs to use that argument to challenge the EU logic. |  | | |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 08:53 - Mar 16 with 874 views | noggin |
| And now the Dutch suspend the use of the A Z vaccine. on 08:08 - Mar 16 by mikeybloo88 |
I've just watched GMB interviewing one of our top doctors and he was very reassuring about he AZ vaccine. But today, as with last night when he was on, he wasn't asked about clotting statistics in people vaccinated with he Pfizer or other vaccines for comparison. It is reported that incidences are similar across all vaccines. It would of course be completely inappropriate and incorrect to raise any doubts about the other vaccines and I'm glad we're rising above it, but it must be tempting for our profs to use that argument to challenge the EU logic. |
What EU logic? |  |
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