| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. 20:16 - May 17 with 3157 views | MattinLondon |
How well would the Town team from the early 80s do in this seasons PL - obviously not as they are now but in their prime. You can take into account todays medical facilities, fewer matches and things off the pitch that they didn’t have back then. Also, I think that we only used 14 players all season so let’s add in another 7 or 8 average to good PL players as well.
Obviously it’s just hypothetical but just interested with what various posters think. |  | | |  |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 07:31 - May 18 with 872 views | DJR |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 07:11 - May 18 by ElephantintheRoom |
Not very well is the obvious answer as [they] would have had serious fitness issues trying to compete with the likes of Watford.
The money doping swirling around in todays Premier League has siphoned off vast numbers of mercenaries from European clubs, pinched kids on a global scale and nabbed any promising players who have the temerity to play for the ‘smaller clubs’. Standards are so much higher - inevitably.
If you watch the film of that era it seems strangely pedestrian - but Town we’re head and shoulders above Villa that year - sometimes the table really does lie - but we tend to ignore the fact that Burnley were the best team of 61-62 for similar reasons
I’d agree with the comments on Cooper. Clough was quick to sign Shilton with jaw-dropping effect - and Robson even let Stoke sign him when Town were struggling along with Sivell. Goalkeeping was Robson’s Achilles Heal - ( if we ignore team discipline like he did)
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Did you ever see the team play in real life? You mention being pedestrian but Ipswich's passing style with the two Dutchmen was streets ahead of its time in this country, and presaged the modern style of the top teams today which could equally be said to be pedestrian. But as with teams today, Ipswich could easily switch gear with the pace of players like Brazil and Gates, so it was anything but pedestrian. |  | | |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 08:05 - May 18 with 848 views | Churchman |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 07:20 - May 18 by DJR |
I never felt Cooper was a weak link. He also had a fantastic period when he saved a vast amount of penalties. I also don't agree with the too small comments. He was 5ft 11in, but in those days not many people were taller than 6ft. Indeed, both Pat Jennings and Peter Shilton were 6ft, only an inch taller. Perhaps people are confusing Cooper with Laurie Sivell, who at 5ft 8in, was probably too small, although it didn't stop him from being a pretty good keeper. [Post edited 18 May 2022 7:21]
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I’ve actually got Laurie Sivell’s autograph. Odd, given I didn’t collect such things.
Sivell was agile and tolerable as a back up. Cooper, whatever his registered height, looked relatively small to me. Posture? Length of his arms? I don’t know. All I can say is that I saw him play many times and he never really filled me with confidence. Part of this is that the rest of the team (two teams really) were really top line and part of it was how good top teams’ goalkeepers usually were.
They had a presence to them that for me Cooper didn’t quite have. I may be unduly harsh on Cooper, but opinions are the fun of the game.
David Best was about the best keeper I saw during the Robson period, but not being that old at the time that view is a very subjective one.
None of the above compare to Ron Fearon or Andy Marshall though. Thank goodness! |  | | |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 09:35 - May 18 with 803 views | StokieBlue |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 20:18 - May 17 by GlasgowBlue |
We'd need a better goalie. Other than that we had the cream of the crop in all positions so we'd be challenging with City and Liverpool. |
Whilst the team of the early 80s was fabulous I think this is quite a lot more complex than just a straight comparison.
For instance, we are comparing teams constructed from different talent pools. The 80s team was very much UK based with a touch of Holland whilst the top premiership teams nowadays draw from the entire world as their talent pool.
Then one has to consider the relative strengths of the divisions. For example, I think the strength of the bottom 10 PL teams now is probably significantly stronger than the strength of the bottom 10 division one teams in 1981 which has an effect on how relative performances are perceived.
Then one needs to decide if 1981 was a special year, if not then are the Liverpool side of 1982 also good enough to compete with Man City and Liverpool of today? What about the Everton side of 1985? Are the Villa side that finished above town in 81 also likely to be able to compete with the top sides of today?
In reality it's incredibly hard to compare different eras with regards to almost sport on an individual or team level. I think all we can really say is that it was a fabulous team and one of the best of the era and something we were lucky to have experienced as a club and fanbase.
Everyone just needs to ensure that their kids watch their matches and highlights so that the memories aren't lost to time. If you have time also make sure they watch a collection of Reuser smashing in goals from all angles.
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| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 09:51 - May 18 with 790 views | MattinLondon |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 07:31 - May 18 by DJR |
Did you ever see the team play in real life? You mention being pedestrian but Ipswich's passing style with the two Dutchmen was streets ahead of its time in this country, and presaged the modern style of the top teams today which could equally be said to be pedestrian. But as with teams today, Ipswich could easily switch gear with the pace of players like Brazil and Gates, so it was anything but pedestrian. |
It’s normally good to get different points of views into a discussion but best not to get into a discussion with the Elephant idiot. | | | |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 09:55 - May 18 with 787 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 20:35 - May 17 by Seablu |
Seem to recall Allan Hunter did his utmost to convince Jennings to join, but can’t find any evidence to back that claim up.
Cooper was actually an excellent keeper though and, if it hadn’t been for Shilton & Clemence being in their pomp, he would have been capped for England. |
Joe Corrigan got caps ahead of him during his peak period, Phil Parkes got 1 at the beginning of Cooper's time at ITFC, Chris Woods became established as Shilton's back up towards the end. |  | | |
| It was before my time on 09:59 - May 18 with 785 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| It was before my time on 23:00 - May 17 by Coastalblue |
If you gave those players the same background and facilities though I'm not so sure. Fitness is not too difficult to attain with modern methods, talent was there without doubt.
The only real question for me would be whether the athletic/power aspect of todays game would see a few players from earlier eras struggle, but we'll never really know.
Having said that, can you imagine Gates in the modern game, defenders would be terrified and wouldn't be able to just kick him.
Thinking my way through our team, I think the only one who may have struggled or at least adapted his game a lot would probably be Butch, and even he would manage I'm sure. |
How can you question 1981 Terry Butcher when Wes Morgan was captain of a Prem winning team? Young Butcher was pretty quick. | | | |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 10:25 - May 18 with 774 views | DJR |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 09:51 - May 18 by MattinLondon |
It’s normally good to get different points of views into a discussion but best not to get into a discussion with the Elephant idiot. |
Thanks for the heads up. | | | |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 10:37 - May 18 with 745 views | itfcjoe |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 20:18 - May 17 by GlasgowBlue |
We'd need a better goalie. Other than that we had the cream of the crop in all positions so we'd be challenging with City and Liverpool. |
Man City and Liverpool are streets ahead of anything English football has ever seen.
Man City have averaged 2.41 points per game across the last 5 seasons.
Changing the 1981 league table to 3 points for a win, they'd have got 101 points to our 79 that season |  |
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| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 10:41 - May 18 with 736 views | MattinLondon |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 10:37 - May 18 by itfcjoe |
Man City and Liverpool are streets ahead of anything English football has ever seen.
Man City have averaged 2.41 points per game across the last 5 seasons.
Changing the 1981 league table to 3 points for a win, they'd have got 101 points to our 79 that season |
But if you’re going to compare then you’ll have to take into account the greater number of matches that they’ll play, the less recovery time, awful pitches, reduced squad sizes etc. | | | |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 10:55 - May 18 with 719 views | jayessess |
Really impossible to judge these sorts of hypotheticals. I suspect the pace, strength and athleticism required in modern football would just rule out some very high level pre-1990 footballers from an elite pro career entirely.
Other thing I'd say is that in 1981 the English First Division is basically the best of the best from the 4 nations with a sprinkling of overseas players mixed in, whereas the modern Premier League is the strongest of 3 globalised leagues that are the best of the best around the world. |  |
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| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 10:58 - May 18 with 703 views | itfcjoe |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 10:41 - May 18 by MattinLondon |
But if you’re going to compare then you’ll have to take into account the greater number of matches that they’ll play, the less recovery time, awful pitches, reduced squad sizes etc. |
I mean more that I don't think any team from history compares with the current Man City and Liverpool sides, maybe Chelsea in 2005 or whatever year under Mourinho, and a Liverpool 70s side.
The current 2 best teams are just so far ahead, and doing things that have never been done. | |
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| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 11:56 - May 18 with 673 views | Bluefields |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 07:31 - May 18 by DJR |
Did you ever see the team play in real life? You mention being pedestrian but Ipswich's passing style with the two Dutchmen was streets ahead of its time in this country, and presaged the modern style of the top teams today which could equally be said to be pedestrian. But as with teams today, Ipswich could easily switch gear with the pace of players like Brazil and Gates, so it was anything but pedestrian. |
Passing streets ahead of Liverpool at the time?? Not too sure about that. However Robson's side would be comfortably competing for Champions League spots every season. | | | |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 12:16 - May 18 with 661 views | DJR |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 10:55 - May 18 by jayessess |
Really impossible to judge these sorts of hypotheticals. I suspect the pace, strength and athleticism required in modern football would just rule out some very high level pre-1990 footballers from an elite pro career entirely.
Other thing I'd say is that in 1981 the English First Division is basically the best of the best from the 4 nations with a sprinkling of overseas players mixed in, whereas the modern Premier League is the strongest of 3 globalised leagues that are the best of the best around the world. |
In the late 70s and early 80s, the English First Division was the best in Europe if you base it on the number of European trophies won. Between 1977 and 1984, the European Cup was won by an English club 7 times out of 8, and presumably would have been won more in the following years but for Heysel. In the 30 years of the Premier League, there have only been 6 English winners. | | | |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 12:32 - May 18 with 645 views | jayessess |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 12:16 - May 18 by DJR |
In the late 70s and early 80s, the English First Division was the best in Europe if you base it on the number of European trophies won. Between 1977 and 1984, the European Cup was won by an English club 7 times out of 8, and presumably would have been won more in the following years but for Heysel. In the 30 years of the Premier League, there have only been 6 English winners. |
Sure, but there's a condensation of global talent within a handful of leagues that isn't the case in the 1970s and 1980s. A handful of giant teams around Europe get to monopolise a much bigger talent pool.
Michel Platini is at St. Etienne in 1981, Paolo Rossi at Perugia, Zico at Flamengo, Socrates at Corinthians, Falcao at Roma etc. etc. Their modern day equivalents are all playing at Manchester City, Liverpool, Real Madrid, Barcelona, PSG, not spread across dozens of teams and leagues. [Post edited 18 May 2022 16:45]
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| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 14:26 - May 18 with 602 views | DJR |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 12:32 - May 18 by jayessess |
Sure, but there's a condensation of global talent within a handful of leagues that isn't the case in the 1970s and 1980s. A handful of giant teams around Europe get to monopolise a much bigger talent pool.
Michel Platini is at St. Etienne in 1981, Paolo Rossi at Perugia, Zico at Flamengo, Socrates at Corinthians, Falcao at Roma etc. etc. Their modern day equivalents are all playing at Manchester City, Liverpool, Real Madrid, Barcelona, PSG, not spread across dozens of teams and leagues. [Post edited 18 May 2022 16:45]
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Fair point. | | | |
| It was before my time on 16:27 - May 18 with 574 views | Coastalblue |
| It was before my time on 09:59 - May 18 by ArnoldMoorhen |
How can you question 1981 Terry Butcher when Wes Morgan was captain of a Prem winning team? Young Butcher was pretty quick. |
Butch was one of my heroes as a teenager and actually think he was underrated despite his achievements. I think what I was trying to suggest is that he would probably have to change his game more to play now, he was a very physical presence and what we see now at the top level is almost non contact sport in comparison.
I don't question he'd have adapted and thrived, just think he may have had to adapt a bit more. |  |
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| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 16:31 - May 18 with 570 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 20:20 - May 17 by Keno |
I have nothing against Coops but you do wonder what difference Jennings would have made if he has signed |
At least three league titles and some other silverware |  |
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| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 17:15 - May 18 with 531 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 16:31 - May 18 by Lord_Lucan |
At least three league titles and some other silverware |
It's impossible to compare era's though.
Muhammad Ali was probably the greatest - but beam him up in time and Tyson Fury would probably beat him.
I dunno, just an example.
Things change and progress.
Man C and Liverpool I suppose would dick us - but not a present day reincarnation of that team they wouldn't.
Still, I'd love to see Man C try and play 66 games with a 12 man squad on an uneven muddy pitch - and playing 3 games in 5 days
blad de blah - jumpers for goalposts | |
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| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 18:18 - May 18 with 502 views | Churchman |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 17:15 - May 18 by Lord_Lucan |
It's impossible to compare era's though.
Muhammad Ali was probably the greatest - but beam him up in time and Tyson Fury would probably beat him.
I dunno, just an example.
Things change and progress.
Man C and Liverpool I suppose would dick us - but not a present day reincarnation of that team they wouldn't.
Still, I'd love to see Man C try and play 66 games with a 12 man squad on an uneven muddy pitch - and playing 3 games in 5 days
blad de blah - jumpers for goalposts |
66 matches against players who were allowed to tackle and where you’d be looked at as an alien if you rolled around screaming - though Eric Gates wasn’t averse to a tumble or two.
If you were to ask the question could Thierry Henry play in todays game - of course he could, yet his prime was 20 years ago. Zola, Ian Wright, Gullitt, Bergkamp? Of course. All 20 years ago. Are we saying that Kinsmann or Gazza would struggle? No. That’s 30 years ago. The players of 81 were only 10 years before these.
The difference? The Premier League. Football doesn’t exist in many people’s mind before then. Part of it is the gloss and the hype and part of it is that because a Lukaku is paid £350k per week and Azpilicueta has an exotic name, they must be better than a boring old Lineker, Dalgliesh or Souness. I saw them play. They would be in top teams now. [Post edited 18 May 2022 19:25]
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| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 19:03 - May 18 with 484 views | jaykay |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 20:21 - May 17 by MattinLondon |
Wasn’t Paul Cooper the only player who wasn’t a full international? |
yep and the most underrated . i use to watch him week on week and can't remember many howlers from him. great penalty saver to |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 19:27 - May 18 with 461 views | hochiblue |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 20:35 - May 17 by Seablu |
Seem to recall Allan Hunter did his utmost to convince Jennings to join, but can’t find any evidence to back that claim up.
Cooper was actually an excellent keeper though and, if it hadn’t been for Shilton & Clemence being in their pomp, he would have been capped for England. |
It was a sad misunderstanding. PJ asked for £20k signing on fee. SBR understood it to be £20k net of tax (so at the time about £80k gross). Too expensive.
PJ later confirmed that he only meant £20k gross.
Who knows what a difference that would have made, although remember Coops record at saving penalties. | | | |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 08:22 - May 19 with 393 views | Bluespeed225 |
only one sub in league games. Imagine that now, or if we had had a bench of some of our non 12 man squad, i,e, Beattie (bit part player, still great, but not first choice,), Sivell (Osman went in goal V WBA), then it would have been Parkin, Turner, D'avray? Not on a par with the first 11, but good enough to allow those lads to be subbed in games for recuperation for the next game 3 days later! | | | |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 09:14 - May 19 with 382 views | DJR |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 18:18 - May 18 by Churchman |
66 matches against players who were allowed to tackle and where you’d be looked at as an alien if you rolled around screaming - though Eric Gates wasn’t averse to a tumble or two.
If you were to ask the question could Thierry Henry play in todays game - of course he could, yet his prime was 20 years ago. Zola, Ian Wright, Gullitt, Bergkamp? Of course. All 20 years ago. Are we saying that Kinsmann or Gazza would struggle? No. That’s 30 years ago. The players of 81 were only 10 years before these.
The difference? The Premier League. Football doesn’t exist in many people’s mind before then. Part of it is the gloss and the hype and part of it is that because a Lukaku is paid £350k per week and Azpilicueta has an exotic name, they must be better than a boring old Lineker, Dalgliesh or Souness. I saw them play. They would be in top teams now. [Post edited 18 May 2022 19:25]
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You make some good points. I suppose the main attribute that a good player has is skill, and there is no reason to think that skilful players from the past would not thrive today. Whilst in other sports, increased size means that, say, a Tyson Fury would beat an Ali, in football size does not in the main come into it, given the size of players like Maradona and Messi. The only exception is goalkeeper (and possibly central defenders when it comes to crosses) because I think a top 6ft 5in goalkeeper from today would be better than a top goalkeeper from the past due to a longer reach. And to those who say that players in the past were not as fit, they would be as fit if playing today because they would be subject to current training regimes. [Post edited 19 May 2022 9:22]
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| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 10:55 - May 19 with 344 views | cressi |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 05:42 - May 18 by Bramidan |
My recollection of Cooper is that he was a tremendous shot stopper.
I think it was felt that he was short for a keeper , nowadays playing against giants he would definitely struggle. |
Why would Cooper struggle now keepers are over protected crosses don't come in how many mariners or Toshak's about good feet
Pickford not the biggest he would be just fine now Laurie Sivell
was a bit small | | | |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 11:04 - May 19 with 337 views | nodge_blue |
| Pointless hypothetical question about the early 80s Ipswich team. on 20:24 - May 17 by MattinLondon |
The reason why I asked was that I read an article which went along the lines of that Ipswich team being the most modern team from the 80s in terms of tactics, technical ability and pace of attack. Can’t for the life of me find it anymore but found it interesting. |
I think as I was saying yesterday the fact we played 433 in the FA cup final showed that we did experiment. I mean we basically played the formation that day that Man City and Liverpool play today!
And then of course we played a diamond midfield in the 80s side.
At a time when most sides were rigid 442.
I think we'd do well still. But its hard to judge. Fitness levels of all the players would probably have to improve. Top 10 maybe. Football has come along way. Its so technical now and there are some world class players at the top clubs today. |  |
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