| Sectarianism 20:15 - Sep 10 with 6000 views | gtsb1966 |
Really has raised its ugly head since the Queens death hasn't it. I've seen the Celtic mural and heard the Shamrock Rovers fans on YouTube etc. Really hard to understand it. I suppose when the Pope dies it starts all over again from the other side. I just don't get it. |  | | |  |
| Sectarianism on 21:16 - Sep 10 with 1920 views | factual_blue |
| Sectarianism on 21:03 - Sep 10 by MattinLondon |
Actually what I wrote is wrong - obviously they are motivated by history but a form which is concentrated on a continuation of hatred and bigotry. Same with some Rangers fans - no doubt the vast majority of both sets of fans find such bigotry wrong and embarrassing. |
Indeed. What this really illustrates is there is no absolute historical 'truth' beyond basic facts (e.g. that the battle we call Waterloo was fought on 18 June 1815).
Everything else is interpretation.
Commonly-held nostrums about much of England's past are as poorly-founded those of pretty well any other country. |  |
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| Sectarianism on 21:25 - Sep 10 with 1900 views | Ryorry |
| Sectarianism on 20:33 - Sep 10 by noggin |
Are you ignoring history? Did The Queen ever apologise for that history? |
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| Sectarianism on 21:30 - Sep 10 with 1899 views | Rozz |
I do not under any circumstances expect any level of sympathy from the Irish. Some of our fans are still singing about German bombers, despite no relation to the current regime. Elizabeth was head of state for the entirety of the troubles.
The British Army swear oath to the monarch, not country nor government. Let's not act surprised that mistakes committed in their name are not forgotten as quickly in the neighbourhoods where they were enacted as they have been here. |  | | |
| Sectarianism on 21:38 - Sep 10 with 1872 views | leitrimblue |
| Sectarianism on 21:25 - Sep 10 by Ryorry |
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Wow, that bar was definitely not in Sligo/Leitrim. |  | | |
| Sectarianism on 22:09 - Sep 10 with 1824 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Sectarianism on 20:32 - Sep 10 by gtsb1966 |
If we all had that attitude we would all hate young Germans because of WW2. It's bollox. |
I wouldn’t say that’s the same situation. In terms of nationalism, Germany isn’t oppressing or controlling us now (beyond normal international politics). Of course it should be left in the past as nobody around today was in any way responsible for what went on in WWII, plus Germany has faced up to it.
A lot of people in the Celtic nations feel they should be self-governed, and probably with good reason. So the feeling doesn’t just stem from the past, they’re based in the present too.
Sectarianism is a cancer though. Becoming enemies over the argument of whose made up version of of a made up religion is best? Grow up you tw*ts. |  |
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| Sectarianism on 22:43 - Sep 10 with 1761 views | Churchman |
| Sectarianism on 21:16 - Sep 10 by factual_blue |
Indeed. What this really illustrates is there is no absolute historical 'truth' beyond basic facts (e.g. that the battle we call Waterloo was fought on 18 June 1815).
Everything else is interpretation.
Commonly-held nostrums about much of England's past are as poorly-founded those of pretty well any other country. |
History is often written by the winners. Hannibal trampling all over the Romans for years is a great example, but he activities are only known through Roman historians because Carthage lost in the end (Punic Wars). But there are events that you can look at analytically, such as the English Civil War, because so much documentary evidence remains. It’s about piecing it together.
To stand any chance of understanding why and how events happened, you have to look at the context of their time as much as the events themselves. If one doesn’t, one will forever make the mistake of judging past events with modern eyes. The result is apologies by everyone for everything, often for events that those living today have no connection with.
That is not to to say, for example, the triangular trade wasn’t an abomination. It was and there were those that thought so at the time, but unless we understand how it came about, what happened and how and why it ended, how can we ever defeat modern slavery that flourishes today?
Let’s face it, for 20 years politicians shoved their heads in the sand, many for personal gain, over Putin and look at the tragedy now in Ukraine. All because 1930s mistakes were repeated. |  | | |
| Sectarianism on 23:15 - Sep 10 with 1728 views | jaykay |
| Sectarianism on 21:38 - Sep 10 by leitrimblue |
Wow, that bar was definitely not in Sligo/Leitrim. |
it wouldn't have been in mother recaps pub in dublin if it was still there either |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Sectarianism on 23:40 - Sep 10 with 1705 views | SitfcB |
| Sectarianism on 20:32 - Sep 10 by gtsb1966 |
If we all had that attitude we would all hate young Germans because of WW2. It's bollox. |
We do, remember…
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| Sectarianism on 06:30 - Sep 11 with 1573 views | solomon |
| Sectarianism on 20:53 - Sep 10 by WD19 |
No, even they know that’s your job. |
Ouch |  | | |
| Sectarianism on 07:34 - Sep 11 with 1556 views | blueprint |
| Sectarianism on 20:24 - Sep 10 by MattinLondon |
Personally speaking the religious bigotry exhibited by both Celtic and Rangers is why I don’t want them in the English leagues. It’s vile. |
Disgusting isn’t it? Both sets of supporters should hang their heads in shame for what has sometimes occurred over the years. |  | | |
| Sectarianism on 08:15 - Sep 11 with 1492 views | OldFart71 |
I do not for one minute believe Celtic and Rangers fans relate to the past when they spout bile with regards to the Monarchy. Hard held beliefs are passed down through generations I have no doubt as fathers and Grandfathers may talk about what has happened in the past. But as with slavery and those that carried it out or were aware of it whatever you do or say cannot erase history all you can do is make sure that it doesn't happen again. Of course there is a certain amount of racism. But the UK I believe is much, much better than many Countries and to a certain extent we are the masters of our own downfall because so many pass through other Countries to get here. It is sad that sects and religions cannot get on, put the past behind them and look forward rather than backwards. |  | | |
| Sectarianism on 08:34 - Sep 11 with 1456 views | noggin |
| Sectarianism on 20:53 - Sep 10 by WD19 |
No, even they know that’s your job. |
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| Sectarianism on 10:54 - Sep 11 with 1357 views | Guthrum |
| Sectarianism on 22:43 - Sep 10 by Churchman |
History is often written by the winners. Hannibal trampling all over the Romans for years is a great example, but he activities are only known through Roman historians because Carthage lost in the end (Punic Wars). But there are events that you can look at analytically, such as the English Civil War, because so much documentary evidence remains. It’s about piecing it together.
To stand any chance of understanding why and how events happened, you have to look at the context of their time as much as the events themselves. If one doesn’t, one will forever make the mistake of judging past events with modern eyes. The result is apologies by everyone for everything, often for events that those living today have no connection with.
That is not to to say, for example, the triangular trade wasn’t an abomination. It was and there were those that thought so at the time, but unless we understand how it came about, what happened and how and why it ended, how can we ever defeat modern slavery that flourishes today?
Let’s face it, for 20 years politicians shoved their heads in the sand, many for personal gain, over Putin and look at the tragedy now in Ukraine. All because 1930s mistakes were repeated. |
Or by the losers, with a view to keeping alive what they stood for (e.g. glorification of the Confederacy in the USA). It can be just as dangerous in that form, sometimes more so (e.g. German interpretation of the causes and outcome of the First World War during the 1920s and 30s). |  |
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| Sectarianism on 10:55 - Sep 11 with 1357 views | leitrimblue |
| Sectarianism on 21:16 - Sep 10 by factual_blue |
Indeed. What this really illustrates is there is no absolute historical 'truth' beyond basic facts (e.g. that the battle we call Waterloo was fought on 18 June 1815).
Everything else is interpretation.
Commonly-held nostrums about much of England's past are as poorly-founded those of pretty well any other country. |
That's a very wise and healthy way to look at history, especially a nations (any nations) history. A nations (any nations) history is perhaps best seen more as an agreed national narrative made outta facts, interpretation and a fair bit of understandable cultural bias. It's like a list of a nations(any nations) victories and achievements with all the atrocities and mistakes omitted | | | |
| Sectarianism on 11:30 - Sep 11 with 1322 views | phillymark |
| Sectarianism on 21:15 - Sep 10 by Churchman |
Every peoples have done unspeakable things. It is not the preserve of just the English or the English Crown.
For example, the Conqueror harried the north laying waste to it for 100 years. The Scots border-raided, enslaved and stole for 100s of years. The English did the same in return, ending after the Act of Union with the appalling smashing and starvation of Scotland post 1745.
The beautiful lament played by a sole piper Flowers of the Forest relates to the battle of Flodden in 1513 when the Scot’s were defeated after invading northern England. Mary QS fled Scotland then tried to usurp Elizabeth so gets killed yet it’s her son James 6th that took the throne.
The Stuarts proved not to be the most savoury mob and their successors weren’t a whole lot better. Perhaps the countries they came from should apologise for lumbering us with them. Of course not.
Ok I’ve majored on England Scotland, but the history of Wales England is dark too. Ireland - possibly even more so.
The story of the English monarchy is complex, often violent and much more besides - just like every other monarchy, Emperor, whatever. The Germans have to live not just with WW1 and WW2 but their East African genocide in the early 20c. I love Germany and like it’s people - should I hold the current generation for the impoverishment of my country and the death/maiming of relations of mine? Of course not.
How far back do we take memories? Should look for compo from France for Napoleon’s exploits? Maybe Denmark for the Viking invasion. Maybe Italy for Caesar’s and Claudius’ invasion and massacre of the Iceni and of course Germany for the Jutes, Saxons and Angles. Who invited them?
My view will always be learn from history, try and understand it and make a better world for the generations to come.
A drunken rant and just a view. |
As an English Jew I’ve never liked Germany (or Austria) - and it might be irrational and say more about me than them. I’m 50, so my parents were born right around WW2 (luckily in Britain) and although I can’t point to any specific family members who perished I know enough of the Polish origins of both sides of my family to know that I obviously lost numerous “cousins”.
Of course I don’t blame current Germans but it is so hard to see them singing their anthem, chanting for their country or flying their flag without a small chill going down the spine. German nationalism is scary to me. I always want Germany to lose.
I’ve never been to Germany - and that’s deliberate. Can’t see myself walking down streets with Starbucks and bars knowing what happened there 1933 (and earlier) - 45. And I know this says more about me than present day Germany. My kids are welcome to visit Germany, of course. Every German I’ve met has been perfectly nice. And obviously I would never graffiti or sing an obnoxious anti-German song.
But I sort of get the historical anger thing
And I love the st. Pauli fans | | | |
| Sectarianism on 11:47 - Sep 11 with 1283 views | Darth_Koont |
| Sectarianism on 11:30 - Sep 11 by phillymark |
As an English Jew I’ve never liked Germany (or Austria) - and it might be irrational and say more about me than them. I’m 50, so my parents were born right around WW2 (luckily in Britain) and although I can’t point to any specific family members who perished I know enough of the Polish origins of both sides of my family to know that I obviously lost numerous “cousins”.
Of course I don’t blame current Germans but it is so hard to see them singing their anthem, chanting for their country or flying their flag without a small chill going down the spine. German nationalism is scary to me. I always want Germany to lose.
I’ve never been to Germany - and that’s deliberate. Can’t see myself walking down streets with Starbucks and bars knowing what happened there 1933 (and earlier) - 45. And I know this says more about me than present day Germany. My kids are welcome to visit Germany, of course. Every German I’ve met has been perfectly nice. And obviously I would never graffiti or sing an obnoxious anti-German song.
But I sort of get the historical anger thing
And I love the st. Pauli fans |
In my experience, and certainly reading what Germans have written about the war and the Holocaust in particular, they are very aware of their past and very honest about it too.
You’d have thought that it would be easy for most Germans born after the war to deny that this horrific past has anything to do with them. But I think the opposite is a truer reflection. |  |
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| Sectarianism on 12:04 - Sep 11 with 1264 views | phillymark |
| Sectarianism on 11:47 - Sep 11 by Darth_Koont |
In my experience, and certainly reading what Germans have written about the war and the Holocaust in particular, they are very aware of their past and very honest about it too.
You’d have thought that it would be easy for most Germans born after the war to deny that this horrific past has anything to do with them. But I think the opposite is a truer reflection. |
Agree though there is also a disturbingly large far right in Germany too. | | | |
| Sectarianism on 12:14 - Sep 11 with 1245 views | Darth_Koont |
| Sectarianism on 12:04 - Sep 11 by phillymark |
Agree though there is also a disturbingly large far right in Germany too. |
Absolutely. That’s why I was careful to say “most”.
There will always be those seduced by far-right ethno-nationalism, identity and militaristic gubbins. Germany is no exception despite their past.
Neither are we, despite a lot of British nationalism and identity supposedly being about fighting against those forces and defeating them. | |
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| Sectarianism on 14:26 - Sep 11 with 1169 views | Mullet |
As with BLM, Sarah Everard and a whole host of other incidents in the last few years, there is a point where an honest conversation needs to be had about the state of the nation.
Much like the tired and inaccurate "but tourism" myths I've heard from all sorts of people, the legacy of colonialism and British foreign policy does need examining as much as the abhorrent attitudes being expressed.
It's 2022 and the need for a monarchy always seems to need a Charles around to get a proper airing. Like it or not, Celtic fans are a part of the community so many are celebrating as part of the tributes to the recently deceased. How do we move forward and eradicate the hatred and hostility?
For all the good being reflected upon during such an astonishingly long reign, by the same logic she also oversaw a hell of a lot of change and low points too. If the institution /Head of State and "Defender of the faith" (allegedly Charles is changing this title to be more inclusive) is truly to be lauded for one, and necessary to maintain Britain then it leaves some very uncomfortable questions for those left behind too.
I think the fact people are shocked and confused is the best indicator we haven't got it right doesn't it? |  |
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| Sectarianism on 18:27 - Sep 11 with 1047 views | factual_blue |
| Sectarianism on 11:30 - Sep 11 by phillymark |
As an English Jew I’ve never liked Germany (or Austria) - and it might be irrational and say more about me than them. I’m 50, so my parents were born right around WW2 (luckily in Britain) and although I can’t point to any specific family members who perished I know enough of the Polish origins of both sides of my family to know that I obviously lost numerous “cousins”.
Of course I don’t blame current Germans but it is so hard to see them singing their anthem, chanting for their country or flying their flag without a small chill going down the spine. German nationalism is scary to me. I always want Germany to lose.
I’ve never been to Germany - and that’s deliberate. Can’t see myself walking down streets with Starbucks and bars knowing what happened there 1933 (and earlier) - 45. And I know this says more about me than present day Germany. My kids are welcome to visit Germany, of course. Every German I’ve met has been perfectly nice. And obviously I would never graffiti or sing an obnoxious anti-German song.
But I sort of get the historical anger thing
And I love the st. Pauli fans |
You've got additional reasons for hating norwich then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_of_Norwich
They don't put 'and home of the blood libel' after 'a fine city', do they? | |
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| Sectarianism on 15:41 - Sep 12 with 890 views | leitrimblue |
I can't think of a single pub in counties Sligo or North Leitrim were the reaction would have been anything like what John Simpson is suggesting he viewed. Perhaps in other parts of the country, but around the border and in the North West, not a chance. I find it very hard to believe... | | | |
| Sectarianism on 15:55 - Sep 12 with 860 views | clive_baker |
| Sectarianism on 15:41 - Sep 12 by leitrimblue |
I can't think of a single pub in counties Sligo or North Leitrim were the reaction would have been anything like what John Simpson is suggesting he viewed. Perhaps in other parts of the country, but around the border and in the North West, not a chance. I find it very hard to believe... |
So you're saying Leitrim isn't feeling blue?
My wife's Irish and I have to say a lot of her family over there have offered their sympathies, been very empathetic actually and I've seen a few touching things on Instagram from them. They're mostly in the middle though, and I appreciate it's a very complicated legacy. Witnessing and growing up through those troubles 1st hand almost certainly will evoke certain opinions and emotions which is entirely understandable.
More widely I've never experienced anti English sentiment personally in Ireland, although I don't doubt it exists. My wifes Auntie did say I had stolen one of their lambs when we got married but I'm pretty sure she was joking. |  |
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| Sectarianism on 15:56 - Sep 12 with 858 views | monytowbray |
| Sectarianism on 15:41 - Sep 12 by leitrimblue |
I can't think of a single pub in counties Sligo or North Leitrim were the reaction would have been anything like what John Simpson is suggesting he viewed. Perhaps in other parts of the country, but around the border and in the North West, not a chance. I find it very hard to believe... |
The only parts that would have done it are the same places that have Union Jack bunting lining the street year round and maybe some parts of Belfast.
I can’t expect any of the areas where hunger striker memorials adorn walls would have done it.
But as a regular here for 10 years who watched the Corbyn Smeary McSmearface saga first hand I can tell you large chunks of this forum have most their understanding and history of the troubles from BBC News in the 70s/80s, and still dine out on it decades later. |  |
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| Sectarianism on 15:58 - Sep 12 with 851 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Sectarianism on 15:55 - Sep 12 by clive_baker |
So you're saying Leitrim isn't feeling blue?
My wife's Irish and I have to say a lot of her family over there have offered their sympathies, been very empathetic actually and I've seen a few touching things on Instagram from them. They're mostly in the middle though, and I appreciate it's a very complicated legacy. Witnessing and growing up through those troubles 1st hand almost certainly will evoke certain opinions and emotions which is entirely understandable.
More widely I've never experienced anti English sentiment personally in Ireland, although I don't doubt it exists. My wifes Auntie did say I had stolen one of their lambs when we got married but I'm pretty sure she was joking. |
Indeed.
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/irish-nationalists-sinn-fein-offer-sincere-symp |  |
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