| Oh Jeremy on 17:24 - Mar 27 with 1273 views | Zapers |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:09 - Mar 27 by Herbivore |
What do you mean by wealth creation and how exactly does someone create wealth? Most wealth is extracted from the masses by the already wealthy, they aren't creating wealth, they are just using the levers of capitalism and cronyism to redistribute more and more of it to themselves. |
Try telling that to Asians and Indians who are self made. Do you honestly think the world revolves around a few people that you might have heard of.
Emerging markets, countries that are seeing huge wealth creation. They are not interested in the same politics that you support.
You have this opinion that only wealth creates wealth. That might suit your biased opinion, but it's not correct. |  | |  |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:25 - Mar 27 with 1272 views | positivity |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:05 - Mar 27 by Herbivore |
I was no great fan of Corbyn, I am just seeing very little on the way of left wing or especially progressive policies coming from Labour at the minute. They have drifted considerably rightward in recent times, which is a shame as the ground on the right and in the centre is already well covered by other parties. |
maybe, i think the rightward drift is a bit exaggerated. the balance between electability & poistion is always a tricky one.
i think the left of the party need to work with the leadership better and shift the agenda rather than get caught up in old battles about yesterday's men. | |
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| Oh Jeremy on 17:32 - Mar 27 with 1227 views | Herbivore |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:24 - Mar 27 by Zapers |
Try telling that to Asians and Indians who are self made. Do you honestly think the world revolves around a few people that you might have heard of.
Emerging markets, countries that are seeing huge wealth creation. They are not interested in the same politics that you support.
You have this opinion that only wealth creates wealth. That might suit your biased opinion, but it's not correct. |
Even pretending for a second that your crude generalisations have any merit, what has any of that got to do with the current debate, which is about politics in the UK? |  |
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| Oh Jeremy on 17:38 - Mar 27 with 1187 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:24 - Mar 27 by Zapers |
Try telling that to Asians and Indians who are self made. Do you honestly think the world revolves around a few people that you might have heard of.
Emerging markets, countries that are seeing huge wealth creation. They are not interested in the same politics that you support.
You have this opinion that only wealth creates wealth. That might suit your biased opinion, but it's not correct. |
But the wealth creation in many emerging markets is even more lopsided than here.
Though I guess there is the parallel that growth and development is often hampered by corruption and cronyism (see inflation levels in Turkey after Erdogan employed a relation as Finance minister - the Tories would be proud!) | | | |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:50 - Mar 27 with 1164 views | BlueBadger |
| Oh Jeremy on 16:23 - Mar 27 by Zapers |
And likely to remain politically homeless. As more and more wealth is created, there are going to be less and less supporters of the likes of Corbyn. |
Ah, Roger Irrelevant has woken up I see. |  |
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| Oh Jeremy on 17:52 - Mar 27 with 1161 views | BlueBadger |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:24 - Mar 27 by Zapers |
Try telling that to Asians and Indians who are self made. Do you honestly think the world revolves around a few people that you might have heard of.
Emerging markets, countries that are seeing huge wealth creation. They are not interested in the same politics that you support.
You have this opinion that only wealth creates wealth. That might suit your biased opinion, but it's not correct. |
'Wealth creators' mostly only create wealth for themselves.
And how many 'self made' people(of whatever ethnicity) are genuinely self made? | |
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| Oh Jeremy on 17:53 - Mar 27 with 1145 views | BlueBadger |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:05 - Mar 27 by Zapers |
You can't help yourself, can you. |
Cheer up mate, it's just bantz. I thought all you devil-may-care anti wokists liked that? [Post edited 27 Mar 2023 17:53]
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| Oh Jeremy on 17:54 - Mar 27 with 1134 views | Blueschev |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:25 - Mar 27 by positivity |
maybe, i think the rightward drift is a bit exaggerated. the balance between electability & poistion is always a tricky one.
i think the left of the party need to work with the leadership better and shift the agenda rather than get caught up in old battles about yesterday's men. |
The leadership have completely shut the left out. How do you propose they shift the agenda? |  | | |
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| Oh Jeremy on 18:00 - Mar 27 with 1130 views | BlueBadger |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:25 - Mar 27 by positivity |
maybe, i think the rightward drift is a bit exaggerated. the balance between electability & poistion is always a tricky one.
i think the left of the party need to work with the leadership better and shift the agenda rather than get caught up in old battles about yesterday's men. |
Quite. The anti-semitism stuff, for example, could have been killed in a week if he'd actually bothered to come down hard on the small minority guilty of it. Unfortunately, quite a lot of them were his mates, so he decides to flannel and fudge it.
There could have been a better case made against austerity, and the spread of student loans vs proper funding for education - but there was a load of posturing with a copy of the Little Red Book from John 'not very competent' McDonnell instead.
And a lot of the vulnerable and young people the Dear Leader purported to care about could have been cushioned from, say, the cost of living crisis and rampant deregulation had he bothered his arse to actually campaign properly for Remain rather than choosing to hide and preach to his cultists.
I can't say that Starmer enthuses me over much but I'm struggling to see what the alternative is right now given that the Lib Des are basically useless, the Greens have some nice ideas but are a) essentially an irrelevance and b) have a loon problem on the quiet themselves if one wants rid of far right Tory government. [Post edited 27 Mar 2023 18:18]
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| Oh Jeremy on 18:14 - Mar 27 with 1077 views | BlueBadger |
| Oh Jeremy on 15:15 - Mar 27 by lowhouseblue |
there are parties that offer what you want. but since your views are in a small minority they will never form a government and never change anything. it's how democracy works. |
As others will point out, a lot of Corbyn's principles are popular with people. The trouble is Corbyn was pretty charisma free, incoherent, incompetent and racist. As we've seen with Boris Johnson, you can get away with the latter two if you can do the first two. [Post edited 27 Mar 2023 19:18]
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| Oh Jeremy on 18:18 - Mar 27 with 1061 views | Herbivore |
| Oh Jeremy on 18:14 - Mar 27 by BlueBadger |
As others will point out, a lot of Corbyn's principles are popular with people. The trouble is Corbyn was pretty charisma free, incoherent, incompetent and racist. As we've seen with Boris Johnson, you can get away with the latter two if you can do the first two. [Post edited 27 Mar 2023 19:18]
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Yes the policies may have been popular but people didn't REALLY want them, or something like that. | |
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| Oh Jeremy on 18:19 - Mar 27 with 1056 views | positivity |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:54 - Mar 27 by Blueschev |
The leadership have completely shut the left out. How do you propose they shift the agenda? |
they haven't completely shut the left out, they've deselected jeremy corbyn, who has proved to be problematic to voters.
other left-wing people remain within the party and within the cabinet, they will (or should, at least) be bending the ear of starmer/rayner et al and showing them how popular their favourite policies can be when presented in a better way. | |
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| Oh Jeremy on 18:20 - Mar 27 with 1054 views | BlueBadger |
| Oh Jeremy on 18:18 - Mar 27 by Herbivore |
Yes the policies may have been popular but people didn't REALLY want them, or something like that. |
Because, the bloke trying to sell them had all the charisma of a wet fish, couldn't explain them clearly and was an incompetent racist. | |
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| Oh Jeremy on 18:20 - Mar 27 with 1054 views | Trequartista |
| Oh Jeremy on 15:22 - Mar 27 by Blueschev |
And therein lies the problem. In 2019 Labour won 921778 more votes than in 2015, and 701462 more votes than is 2005. Yet people such as yourself shout from the rafters that 2019 was the worst labour election result since 1935. That's a sham of a democracy. |
That's like scoring 4 goals in a 5-4 defeat. Would rather score 2 goals in a 2-2 draw. |  |
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| Oh Jeremy on 18:23 - Mar 27 with 1047 views | giant_stow |
| Oh Jeremy on 18:18 - Mar 27 by Herbivore |
Yes the policies may have been popular but people didn't REALLY want them, or something like that. |
Well there was clearly some problem lurking between the opinion polls on his policies and that ectual election results. Personally I think it was the number of policies. I also seem to remember the broadband one being bungled a bit - hadn't they not thought about what to do with non-BT providers and had to make things up on the hoof? Might have misremembered. |  |
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| Oh Jeremy on 18:25 - Mar 27 with 1042 views | Herbivore |
| Oh Jeremy on 18:23 - Mar 27 by giant_stow |
Well there was clearly some problem lurking between the opinion polls on his policies and that ectual election results. Personally I think it was the number of policies. I also seem to remember the broadband one being bungled a bit - hadn't they not thought about what to do with non-BT providers and had to make things up on the hoof? Might have misremembered. |
The big problem, as Badger notes in language I don't fully agree with, was Corbyn primarily rather than the policies. That said, throwing in more nationalised stuff last minute to try and win some more votes smacked of incompetence. Granted they'd done more to cost their manifesto than the Tories but the Tories have the weight of the media behind them and it's hard to quantify how much a manifesto that was three words long and likely to tank the economy might fully cost. | |
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| Oh Jeremy on 18:26 - Mar 27 with 1042 views | Meadowlark |
When GB quotes The Sun, you know he's found his spiritual home! |  | | |
| Oh Jeremy on 18:36 - Mar 27 with 1016 views | JakeITFC |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:16 - Mar 27 by giant_stow |
I definitely have sympathy for the 2nd part of your post and just hope that if Starmer gets into power, he'd shift again back left. But sorry - not disagreeing for the sake of it, but I just don';t see the value in the trend you identify when Labour ended up as far from actual power as its ever been.
One party is bound to have an influence on the other in a two party state - they play off each other and each's popularity is a direct function of the other's. |
Of course, but it's important to look at the who and not just the how many. |  | | |
| Oh Jeremy on 19:15 - Mar 27 with 981 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Oh Jeremy on 17:09 - Mar 27 by Herbivore |
What do you mean by wealth creation and how exactly does someone create wealth? Most wealth is extracted from the masses by the already wealthy, they aren't creating wealth, they are just using the levers of capitalism and cronyism to redistribute more and more of it to themselves. |
You see where all these would be African migrants went wrong was in not realising that the wealth created by the colonialists would eventually make their lives better. |  |
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| Oh Jeremy on 19:19 - Mar 27 with 974 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Oh Jeremy on 18:00 - Mar 27 by BlueBadger |
Quite. The anti-semitism stuff, for example, could have been killed in a week if he'd actually bothered to come down hard on the small minority guilty of it. Unfortunately, quite a lot of them were his mates, so he decides to flannel and fudge it.
There could have been a better case made against austerity, and the spread of student loans vs proper funding for education - but there was a load of posturing with a copy of the Little Red Book from John 'not very competent' McDonnell instead.
And a lot of the vulnerable and young people the Dear Leader purported to care about could have been cushioned from, say, the cost of living crisis and rampant deregulation had he bothered his arse to actually campaign properly for Remain rather than choosing to hide and preach to his cultists.
I can't say that Starmer enthuses me over much but I'm struggling to see what the alternative is right now given that the Lib Des are basically useless, the Greens have some nice ideas but are a) essentially an irrelevance and b) have a loon problem on the quiet themselves if one wants rid of far right Tory government. [Post edited 27 Mar 2023 18:18]
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Yeah a choice between sh1t and sh1tter again....normal business has been resumed. Best get used to eating it. | |
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| Oh Jeremy on 07:28 - Mar 28 with 806 views | DJR |
| Oh Jeremy on 13:45 - Mar 27 by Blueschev |
I've yet to cancel the direct debit, but I'm struggling to justify remaining as a member to be honest. The current situation is ludicrous. |
That's how I feel too, and I've certainly cut down my subscription to the bare minimum.
Whatever his failings (and there were a few), Corbyn is a member of the Labour Party, so to prevent him standing (and fixing selection panels elsewhere) flies in the face of Starmer's tweet a couple of years ago.
"The selections for Labour candidates need to be more democratic and we should end NEC impositions of candidates. Local Party members should select their candidates for every election."
Of course, if you are not a member of the Labour Party, perhaps Starmer going back on what he said doesn't really matter, but it, along with various pledges he has abandoned, entitles members to feel they have been duped. And it does raise the question of just how trustworthy Starmer really is, something which ought to be of concern, but is conveniently swept under the carpet. Although, as Steve Bell's cartoon said of Boris Johnson, perhaps he lied in good faith. |  | | |
| Oh Jeremy on 08:12 - Mar 28 with 766 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Oh Jeremy on 14:11 - Mar 27 by Blueschev |
The purging of the left is frankly disgusting, and terrible for democracy in this country, which is already a bit of a sham. [Post edited 27 Mar 2023 14:12]
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Is the “left” being purged or just the anti semites, Putin and Iranian state apologists?
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| Oh Jeremy on 08:39 - Mar 28 with 723 views | tractordownsouth |
| Oh Jeremy on 15:22 - Mar 27 by Blueschev |
And therein lies the problem. In 2019 Labour won 921778 more votes than in 2015, and 701462 more votes than is 2005. Yet people such as yourself shout from the rafters that 2019 was the worst labour election result since 1935. That's a sham of a democracy. |
Sure, but you've got to win under the current system in order to change it.
It also meant it was a huge mistake for Corbyn not to back Theresa May's deal. It was better than what Johnson came up with and by backing it, Labour would have avoided accusations of disrespecting the result and sent the ERG into meltdown.
The electoral geography means that middle-aged and retired Brexiters in former Labour areas are the most valuable swing voters, so having an election with Brexit as the main policy issue was an absolute gift to the Tories. Backing May's deal could've avoided that.
I still think (and the polls show) that Corbyn's personal unpopularity was the biggest reason for the defeat but poor decision making like this was a huge factor too. |  |
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| Oh Jeremy on 08:52 - Mar 28 with 705 views | leitrimblue |
| Oh Jeremy on 08:12 - Mar 28 by GlasgowBlue |
Is the “left” being purged or just the anti semites, Putin and Iranian state apologists?
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The left |  | | |
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