| Oh Jeremy on 19:08 - Mar 28 with 1521 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Oh Jeremy on 18:59 - Mar 28 by lowhouseblue |
labour's worst defeat since 1935 is what scared me most. boris with a huge majority.
so what did you think was corbyn's greatest success? the ehrc findings or the electoral wipe out? |
As you know his defeat had nothing to do with the policies he represents but more to do with our obsession with leaders, the cult of personality and 'getting Brexit done.
But you just carry on being comfortable with vacuous mediocrity....just don't cry too much when the inevitable implosion of society comes.
I am pleased for you that you and GB have your party back. |  |
|  |
| Oh Jeremy on 19:24 - Mar 28 with 1466 views | lowhouseblue |
| Oh Jeremy on 19:08 - Mar 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
As you know his defeat had nothing to do with the policies he represents but more to do with our obsession with leaders, the cult of personality and 'getting Brexit done.
But you just carry on being comfortable with vacuous mediocrity....just don't cry too much when the inevitable implosion of society comes.
I am pleased for you that you and GB have your party back. |
his defeat was to do with people, when offered the choice between him and boris, choosing boris. that's pretty much the definition of mediocrity. i'll be very happy to have a labour government back - but you're actually anti-tory to the point of complete indifference. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 19:30 - Mar 28 with 1434 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Oh Jeremy on 19:24 - Mar 28 by lowhouseblue |
his defeat was to do with people, when offered the choice between him and boris, choosing boris. that's pretty much the definition of mediocrity. i'll be very happy to have a labour government back - but you're actually anti-tory to the point of complete indifference. |
So as you seem to agree now, not a choice between policies. | |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 20:41 - Mar 28 with 1366 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oh Jeremy on 18:56 - Mar 28 by GlasgowBlue |
The antisemitism tbh. |
The smearing.
And you’re never honest with politics. |  |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 21:27 - Mar 28 with 1305 views | Lord_Lucan |
Gotta say - as someone not in the same political sphere as Corbyn I don’t really see either “confrontation” as anything but mild annoyance.
Corbyn’s current demise reminds me a bit of Joe Bugner after Frank Bruno beat him at WHL. Bugner was never accepted by the British public because he controversially beat Henry Cooper, in fact rather than not being accepted he was hated a bit. After a young Frank beat an old Joe (who just wanted one more pay day) Bugner sat on his stall whilst being interviewed and simply said “That’s my last fight, I’m sick of being the bad guy, let someone else be the bad guy now”
Now I know it’s not the greatest analogy but when Corbyn finally disappears, people will look back at interesting times and his detractors might have a bit more warmth.
It’s life. |  |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 22:25 - Mar 28 with 1260 views | positivity |
| Oh Jeremy on 19:30 - Mar 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
So as you seem to agree now, not a choice between policies. |
corbyn's actions have set the left back in the labour party for a few years. if he'd have continued, he'd have set us back with the country for a generation.
better that the left work together in the labour party then unite behind someone with leadership qualities rather than obsessing over yesterday's loser.
he's labour's paul lambert, briefly bought joy to the club with a return to traditional values, before poor leadership, poor man-management, poor tactics, poor results and general haplessness saw the back of him [Post edited 28 Mar 2023 22:25]
|  |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 08:32 - Mar 29 with 1122 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Oh Jeremy on 19:08 - Mar 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
As you know his defeat had nothing to do with the policies he represents but more to do with our obsession with leaders, the cult of personality and 'getting Brexit done.
But you just carry on being comfortable with vacuous mediocrity....just don't cry too much when the inevitable implosion of society comes.
I am pleased for you that you and GB have your party back. |
This is an excellent articulation of the problem of the decreasing gap between our two main parties, free from the type of playground arguments around personality that plague any ‘discussion’ on here. You’ve only got to look around to see that even New Labour would be preferable to what we have now of course, but they’d only be papering over the cracks.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001k856 |  |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:04 - Mar 29 with 1097 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oh Jeremy on 22:25 - Mar 28 by positivity |
corbyn's actions have set the left back in the labour party for a few years. if he'd have continued, he'd have set us back with the country for a generation.
better that the left work together in the labour party then unite behind someone with leadership qualities rather than obsessing over yesterday's loser.
he's labour's paul lambert, briefly bought joy to the club with a return to traditional values, before poor leadership, poor man-management, poor tactics, poor results and general haplessness saw the back of him [Post edited 28 Mar 2023 22:25]
|
That’s not really true.
The left has been nowhere in any real sense over the past 40 years in the UK. Corbyn emerged and gave a lot of people hope, finally, that the UK could get off its right-ward path and stop getting pulled even further right by the press and xenophobic populism. It felt like the UK had a sudden, unexpected chance of becoming a modern democracy, society and economy like our more successful European neighbours. It felt like the enormous inequalities and imbalances in the UK (regional and structural, rich vs. poor, old vs. young, private vs. public, establishment vs. citizens etc.) could finally be addressed.
But that’s also why right-wingers in the Labour Party and beyond absolutely sh@t the bed when faced with European-style social democracy and the prospect of power shifting to people and away from their bankrupt ideology and cosy interests. And they have lied, cheated and stolen to put an end to “Corbynism” ever since.
However, I don’t see the left going away now because the ideas and policies are still there. They probably need to leave Labour for a generation or more as it’s a pretty toxic environment and set up to stifle progressive change. But distance from the cult of decline, non-representative politics and flexing right is no bad thing when we see where that’s taken the UK over the past decades and where we’re heading.
And yes, you think Starmer et al are really centre-left. But that’s just a sign of how narrow and ignorant our politics and political debate has become. And how the actual left (socialists and social democrats) haven’t had a voice for too long until Corbyn. | |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Oh Jeremy on 09:20 - Mar 29 with 1085 views | Ryorry |
| Oh Jeremy on 08:32 - Mar 29 by Swansea_Blue |
This is an excellent articulation of the problem of the decreasing gap between our two main parties, free from the type of playground arguments around personality that plague any ‘discussion’ on here. You’ve only got to look around to see that even New Labour would be preferable to what we have now of course, but they’d only be papering over the cracks.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001k856 |
Will give it a listen later, thanks - you're spot on re discussion of the two main parties on here - always ends up in groundhog day #19,100+ with the same two people slagging off anyone who sees it even slightly differently than they do 
And those of us who see it slightly differently saying the same old same old things ourselves - I've reached the point of boring myself with my own stuff! |  |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:28 - Mar 29 with 1056 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oh Jeremy on 08:32 - Mar 29 by Swansea_Blue |
This is an excellent articulation of the problem of the decreasing gap between our two main parties, free from the type of playground arguments around personality that plague any ‘discussion’ on here. You’ve only got to look around to see that even New Labour would be preferable to what we have now of course, but they’d only be papering over the cracks.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001k856 |
Very good.
The irony in all this is that PR would actually create a free market of ideas. But it’s exactly this that establishment politics with its neoliberal consensus wants to avoid. Instead, there are much stronger incentives for working in the interests of the powerful than the interests of the people. And there are massive disincentives for anyone threatening the established order with alternatives as we’ve seen over the past half-dozen years. Politically, we’ve been stitched up good and proper.
Unfortunately, I think the tipping point in a change of system and outlook for government is going to take further decline and unrest that will hurt millions of the most vulnerable. And no doubt a Labour government showing its inability to move the needle in any meaningful way by using the same tired, self-serving orthodoxy. | |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:34 - Mar 29 with 1024 views | positivity |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:04 - Mar 29 by Darth_Koont |
That’s not really true.
The left has been nowhere in any real sense over the past 40 years in the UK. Corbyn emerged and gave a lot of people hope, finally, that the UK could get off its right-ward path and stop getting pulled even further right by the press and xenophobic populism. It felt like the UK had a sudden, unexpected chance of becoming a modern democracy, society and economy like our more successful European neighbours. It felt like the enormous inequalities and imbalances in the UK (regional and structural, rich vs. poor, old vs. young, private vs. public, establishment vs. citizens etc.) could finally be addressed.
But that’s also why right-wingers in the Labour Party and beyond absolutely sh@t the bed when faced with European-style social democracy and the prospect of power shifting to people and away from their bankrupt ideology and cosy interests. And they have lied, cheated and stolen to put an end to “Corbynism” ever since.
However, I don’t see the left going away now because the ideas and policies are still there. They probably need to leave Labour for a generation or more as it’s a pretty toxic environment and set up to stifle progressive change. But distance from the cult of decline, non-representative politics and flexing right is no bad thing when we see where that’s taken the UK over the past decades and where we’re heading.
And yes, you think Starmer et al are really centre-left. But that’s just a sign of how narrow and ignorant our politics and political debate has become. And how the actual left (socialists and social democrats) haven’t had a voice for too long until Corbyn. |
the left need to focus on bringing those *policies* further to the fore in the labour party, not focussing on yesterday's *personalities*.
leave the corbyn cult in the past where it belongs and focus on the current and next generatuion, so much energy is being wasted on this yesterday's man | |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:37 - Mar 29 with 1018 views | Blueschev |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:28 - Mar 29 by Darth_Koont |
Very good.
The irony in all this is that PR would actually create a free market of ideas. But it’s exactly this that establishment politics with its neoliberal consensus wants to avoid. Instead, there are much stronger incentives for working in the interests of the powerful than the interests of the people. And there are massive disincentives for anyone threatening the established order with alternatives as we’ve seen over the past half-dozen years. Politically, we’ve been stitched up good and proper.
Unfortunately, I think the tipping point in a change of system and outlook for government is going to take further decline and unrest that will hurt millions of the most vulnerable. And no doubt a Labour government showing its inability to move the needle in any meaningful way by using the same tired, self-serving orthodoxy. |
I just don't see how we will ever have systemic change. The key beneficiaries of our undemocratic system are the only people with the power to change it. Having had their fingers burnt by Corbyn, you'll not see another Social Democrat as Labour leader. Just look at how the selection process of candidates is being dictated by the leadership. I've not felt this disenchanted by it all since the invasion of Iraq. [Post edited 29 Mar 2023 9:44]
|  | | |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:41 - Mar 29 with 986 views | Ryorry |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:37 - Mar 29 by Blueschev |
I just don't see how we will ever have systemic change. The key beneficiaries of our undemocratic system are the only people with the power to change it. Having had their fingers burnt by Corbyn, you'll not see another Social Democrat as Labour leader. Just look at how the selection process of candidates is being dictated by the leadership. I've not felt this disenchanted by it all since the invasion of Iraq. [Post edited 29 Mar 2023 9:44]
|
Sadly, change will come only when the planet has gone past the tipping point re climate change & humans all over the world are forced to act due to mass migration, water & food shortages.
Hope I'm wrong, but it's a bit of a forlorn hope. | |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:43 - Mar 29 with 961 views | Blueschev |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:34 - Mar 29 by positivity |
the left need to focus on bringing those *policies* further to the fore in the labour party, not focussing on yesterday's *personalities*.
leave the corbyn cult in the past where it belongs and focus on the current and next generatuion, so much energy is being wasted on this yesterday's man |
I would tend to agree with you, but how do you propose we on the left do this? The power grab from the top has diminished the power of the constituency parties as well as conference.
Corbyn was a poor leader, wholly unsuited to party leadership. However the attacks on him are also an attack on the broader left. "If you don't like it, you can leave." | | | |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:48 - Mar 29 with 931 views | giant_stow |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:43 - Mar 29 by Blueschev |
I would tend to agree with you, but how do you propose we on the left do this? The power grab from the top has diminished the power of the constituency parties as well as conference.
Corbyn was a poor leader, wholly unsuited to party leadership. However the attacks on him are also an attack on the broader left. "If you don't like it, you can leave." |
I realise I'm seen as a dirty centrist, but I think the best thing the left could do is forget about internal battles and concentrate on winning over the electorate - not party members, but the electorate. Turn outwards and make the case to the people who really matter - it's all about what a shyster Starmer is at the moment. Only this way will it become electorally rational for the party leaders to head in the direction the left wants.
Edit: I'm not sure I've put that very well - another try: the left just speaks to itself right now - it should speak to the whole country. [Post edited 29 Mar 2023 9:51]
|  |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:49 - Mar 29 with 929 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:37 - Mar 29 by Blueschev |
I just don't see how we will ever have systemic change. The key beneficiaries of our undemocratic system are the only people with the power to change it. Having had their fingers burnt by Corbyn, you'll not see another Social Democrat as Labour leader. Just look at how the selection process of candidates is being dictated by the leadership. I've not felt this disenchanted by it all since the invasion of Iraq. [Post edited 29 Mar 2023 9:44]
|
A genuine question. Why can’t the left find a credible candidate who is free from the baggage of Corbyn?
There must be somebody out there who isn’t tainted by antisemitism, open support for terrorist groups in this country and abroad, and a habit of seeing the very worst in his own country whilst giving the benefit of doubt to the likes of Assad (chemical attacks on his own people) and Putin (Salisbury poisoning)
Even now he is saying that he wouldn’t give weapons to Ukraine because Zelenskyy may use them to invade Russia. |  |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:52 - Mar 29 with 920 views | positivity |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:43 - Mar 29 by Blueschev |
I would tend to agree with you, but how do you propose we on the left do this? The power grab from the top has diminished the power of the constituency parties as well as conference.
Corbyn was a poor leader, wholly unsuited to party leadership. However the attacks on him are also an attack on the broader left. "If you don't like it, you can leave." |
it's more of an attack on corbyn and his problematic relationship with the voters, otherwise a hell of a lot more mps would be barred.
i'd suggest that the left focus on promoting policies locally & nationally, showing that they work, not wasting political capital on corbyn/the antisemitism row, where the public have already made up their mind (fairly or not)
he may not be as left as you'd like, but be more andy burnham and less chris williamson | |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:57 - Mar 29 with 893 views | chicoazul |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:49 - Mar 29 by GlasgowBlue |
A genuine question. Why can’t the left find a credible candidate who is free from the baggage of Corbyn?
There must be somebody out there who isn’t tainted by antisemitism, open support for terrorist groups in this country and abroad, and a habit of seeing the very worst in his own country whilst giving the benefit of doubt to the likes of Assad (chemical attacks on his own people) and Putin (Salisbury poisoning)
Even now he is saying that he wouldn’t give weapons to Ukraine because Zelenskyy may use them to invade Russia. |
I don’t think he’s wrong on that last point. Unlike many on here I’m not an expert in warfare and international relations but surely you don’t need tanks and jets for defence. |  |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:58 - Mar 29 with 892 views | Darth_Koont |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:34 - Mar 29 by positivity |
the left need to focus on bringing those *policies* further to the fore in the labour party, not focussing on yesterday's *personalities*.
leave the corbyn cult in the past where it belongs and focus on the current and next generatuion, so much energy is being wasted on this yesterday's man |
You’re the ones calling Corbynism a cult of personality. Actually it’s a “cult” typified by people who were glad that the real underlying issues and possible solutions were finally on someone’s agenda.
Meanwhile, it seems your version of politics is emptier, more superficial and more driven by “personality” than its ever been. | |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 10:00 - Mar 29 with 873 views | giant_stow |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:57 - Mar 29 by chicoazul |
I don’t think he’s wrong on that last point. Unlike many on here I’m not an expert in warfare and international relations but surely you don’t need tanks and jets for defence. |
nice little jab in there - you've not lost it - but you're surely wrong: Russia would nuke Ukraine if it ever tried to take Russian territory and I'm not sure worl would have too much to say about the consequences of such a stupid illegal action. [Post edited 29 Mar 2023 10:01]
| |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 10:05 - Mar 29 with 863 views | DanTheMan |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:57 - Mar 29 by chicoazul |
I don’t think he’s wrong on that last point. Unlike many on here I’m not an expert in warfare and international relations but surely you don’t need tanks and jets for defence. |
Not strictly true, even if tanks and jets could only be used in an offensive capacity, they do need to retake a lot of lost ground which would be offensive in nature. |  |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 10:19 - Mar 29 with 826 views | lowhouseblue |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:49 - Mar 29 by GlasgowBlue |
A genuine question. Why can’t the left find a credible candidate who is free from the baggage of Corbyn?
There must be somebody out there who isn’t tainted by antisemitism, open support for terrorist groups in this country and abroad, and a habit of seeing the very worst in his own country whilst giving the benefit of doubt to the likes of Assad (chemical attacks on his own people) and Putin (Salisbury poisoning)
Even now he is saying that he wouldn’t give weapons to Ukraine because Zelenskyy may use them to invade Russia. |
"There must be somebody out there who isn’t tainted by antisemitism, open support for terrorist groups in this country and abroad, and a habit of seeing the very worst in his own country whilst giving the benefit of doubt to the likes of Assad (chemical attacks on his own people) and Putin (Salisbury poisoning)"
but those are the very things that define and unite the british left that came of age in the 1970s. sadly corbyn may have passed that on to the following generations. if you take away that nasty anti-west stuff which is so critical to the identify of corbyn and his hangers on, the labour party would have little problem in being pretty united over domestic policy. the domestic policy differences are such that just about everyone could live with them. the anti-west etc stuff is also the bit the electorate run away from. the old joke about corbyn caring far more about the east bank than the north east is absolutely critical to his political dna. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Oh Jeremy on 10:22 - Mar 29 with 797 views | Zapers |
| Oh Jeremy on 10:00 - Mar 29 by giant_stow |
nice little jab in there - you've not lost it - but you're surely wrong: Russia would nuke Ukraine if it ever tried to take Russian territory and I'm not sure worl would have too much to say about the consequences of such a stupid illegal action. [Post edited 29 Mar 2023 10:01]
|
This does of course depend on what you define as Russian territory. My guess is that your definition would differ to that of Russia. | | | |
| Oh Jeremy on 10:24 - Mar 29 with 791 views | Blueschev |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:49 - Mar 29 by GlasgowBlue |
A genuine question. Why can’t the left find a credible candidate who is free from the baggage of Corbyn?
There must be somebody out there who isn’t tainted by antisemitism, open support for terrorist groups in this country and abroad, and a habit of seeing the very worst in his own country whilst giving the benefit of doubt to the likes of Assad (chemical attacks on his own people) and Putin (Salisbury poisoning)
Even now he is saying that he wouldn’t give weapons to Ukraine because Zelenskyy may use them to invade Russia. |
I don't believe it would be possible to get a left wing candidate on the ballot again, and in the unlikely event that a genuine left wing candidate were to emerge as leader, all and every bit of mud would be slung at them until something stuck. Lies would be repeated across the media until it was accepted truth to most people. | | | |
| Oh Jeremy on 10:26 - Mar 29 with 773 views | positivity |
| Oh Jeremy on 09:58 - Mar 29 by Darth_Koont |
You’re the ones calling Corbynism a cult of personality. Actually it’s a “cult” typified by people who were glad that the real underlying issues and possible solutions were finally on someone’s agenda.
Meanwhile, it seems your version of politics is emptier, more superficial and more driven by “personality” than its ever been. |
nonsense, as blueschev stated "Corbyn was a poor leader, wholly unsuited to party leadership". the problem is him with the public, not so much the policies, particularly if you can eliminate corbyn from the policies.
instead of spending so much time calling for corbyn's reinstatement and criticising starmer (*personality/personality*), promote alternative *policies* | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
