By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:14 - Nov 20 by GlasgowBlue
So you now accept that is what he is trying to say, and I'm no longer thick enough to believe that it is?
Not really no, from what I've seen and what you've then told me he said afterwards it seems to me that his point remains that the video doesn't prove a great deal. He's certainly not saying that Hamas are lovely fellows. And I didn't call you thick.
1
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 21:23 - Nov 20 with 4971 views
I've met Owen, and at one point we were both involved with something charitable that was important to a friend of mine. I thought him a really good bloke, and at that time he espoused my political, social and economic standpoint remarkably well. Which is to say we aligned perfectly, *at that time*. I suspect we've both changed. I no longer associate with any political or social movement (let alone party) in this country, nor promote, campaign for, or write about anything anymore. More fool me, probably, but I don't have the inclination or the energy for what Owen is doing.
I was discussing this earlier with a friend. Somewhat like Godwin's Law...I think we could coin another term...I’m convinced that anyone, however progressive and objective they start off, will always descend into the parody of themselves which loses objectivity and doubles down on things if in the public eye for long enough. I fear he has, even if I would side with his interpretation of a lot of things in this world.
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 21:23 - Nov 20 by unbelievablue
I've met Owen, and at one point we were both involved with something charitable that was important to a friend of mine. I thought him a really good bloke, and at that time he espoused my political, social and economic standpoint remarkably well. Which is to say we aligned perfectly, *at that time*. I suspect we've both changed. I no longer associate with any political or social movement (let alone party) in this country, nor promote, campaign for, or write about anything anymore. More fool me, probably, but I don't have the inclination or the energy for what Owen is doing.
I was discussing this earlier with a friend. Somewhat like Godwin's Law...I think we could coin another term...I’m convinced that anyone, however progressive and objective they start off, will always descend into the parody of themselves which loses objectivity and doubles down on things if in the public eye for long enough. I fear he has, even if I would side with his interpretation of a lot of things in this world.
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 18:38 - Nov 28 by GlasgowBlue
Why not just share the video and your own take on it?
Do we need the outrage of Zac Goldsmith or the loons of Sussex Friends of Israel? These aren't reputable sources for anything, let alone moral decency.
But I suspect, as ever, this is more about the framing than the actual content.
Pronouns: He/Him
4
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 19:30 - Nov 28 with 4505 views
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 19:23 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont
Why not just share the video and your own take on it?
Do we need the outrage of Zac Goldsmith or the loons of Sussex Friends of Israel? These aren't reputable sources for anything, let alone moral decency.
But I suspect, as ever, this is more about the framing than the actual content.
Anyone remember Zac Goldsmith’s London Mayoral campaign against Sadiq Khan? Now that was vile.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 19:31]
4
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 20:22 - Nov 28 with 4443 views
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 19:23 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont
Why not just share the video and your own take on it?
Do we need the outrage of Zac Goldsmith or the loons of Sussex Friends of Israel? These aren't reputable sources for anything, let alone moral decency.
But I suspect, as ever, this is more about the framing than the actual content.
Just watched Owen Jones's video. And surprise, surprise it isn't anything like how these clowns present it. For starters, he's absolutely condemned and expressed his horror at the footage the Israelis have assembled.
It's more an important warning we should all understand from history, especially how ordinary good people can end up doing incredibly horrible things: "When you learn of the horrors which humans are capable of inflicting against each other, you either allow these horrors to deepen your humanity or you use those horrors to numb your humanity so that you can be complicit in even more, and indeed often, greater horrors."
As we're seeing almost 20,000 killed in Gaza in response, and millions under continued threat, I think that's a warning we should heed rather than dismiss.
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 20:22 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont
Just watched Owen Jones's video. And surprise, surprise it isn't anything like how these clowns present it. For starters, he's absolutely condemned and expressed his horror at the footage the Israelis have assembled.
It's more an important warning we should all understand from history, especially how ordinary good people can end up doing incredibly horrible things: "When you learn of the horrors which humans are capable of inflicting against each other, you either allow these horrors to deepen your humanity or you use those horrors to numb your humanity so that you can be complicit in even more, and indeed often, greater horrors."
As we're seeing almost 20,000 killed in Gaza in response, and millions under continued threat, I think that's a warning we should heed rather than dismiss.
1500 israelies murdered in horrific circumstances by terroists Around 10 x as many Palestinians slaughtered by a democratic state while the world watches Who gives a feck about Owen Jones
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 23:24]
0
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 02:50 - Nov 29 with 4248 views
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 23:23 - Nov 28 by reusersfreekicks
1500 israelies murdered in horrific circumstances by terroists Around 10 x as many Palestinians slaughtered by a democratic state while the world watches Who gives a feck about Owen Jones
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 23:24]
‘Who gives a feck?’ Seemingly half of the Twittersphere. It’s very odd.
He’s saying: - the attacks on 7th October were horrific beyond imagination and seeing the footage will haunt him forever - Hamas undoubtedly murdered innocent civilians - Hamas broke the Geneva Convention through their murdering of civilians and military personnel and the subsequent treatment of captives - There are some possible inconsistencies in the official narrative, that may nonetheless have reasonable explanations and don’t necessarily prove other atrocities not seen in the clips didn’t take place
Things most people agree with. Yet here we are - it’s being spun that he’s a Hamas sympathiser. It’s purely tribal and rather pathetic from what I can see.
I only watched the video to see if the criticisms were justified. I’m not sure they are, but you’re right that he’s not important in the grand scheme of things. Or maybe he is, as he’s prepared to challenge authority in an increasingly authoritarian world? Maybe that’s a leap too far though and he’s just an annoying twerp. Who knows.
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 07:03 - Nov 29 by Swansea_Blue
‘Who gives a feck?’ Seemingly half of the Twittersphere. It’s very odd.
He’s saying: - the attacks on 7th October were horrific beyond imagination and seeing the footage will haunt him forever - Hamas undoubtedly murdered innocent civilians - Hamas broke the Geneva Convention through their murdering of civilians and military personnel and the subsequent treatment of captives - There are some possible inconsistencies in the official narrative, that may nonetheless have reasonable explanations and don’t necessarily prove other atrocities not seen in the clips didn’t take place
Things most people agree with. Yet here we are - it’s being spun that he’s a Hamas sympathiser. It’s purely tribal and rather pathetic from what I can see.
I only watched the video to see if the criticisms were justified. I’m not sure they are, but you’re right that he’s not important in the grand scheme of things. Or maybe he is, as he’s prepared to challenge authority in an increasingly authoritarian world? Maybe that’s a leap too far though and he’s just an annoying twerp. Who knows.
I started to watch the video but bailed quite soon when he started to describe what he'd seen - afraid it was too much for me. Can I ask you as someone I respect, how much truth is there, in what seems to be the main criticism, that he nit picks / asks for unreasonable evidence of rape / other crimes?
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 07:39 - Nov 29 by Darth_Koont
The bad faith is off the scale.
Can we assume that she’s on your list of British Jews who are “ Islamophobic, apologists for apartheid, fundamentalist nutjobs and antisemitism weaponisers"?
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 07:47 - Nov 29 by GlasgowBlue
Can we assume that she’s on your list of British Jews who are “ Islamophobic, apologists for apartheid, fundamentalist nutjobs and antisemitism weaponisers"?
Pronouns: He/Him
0
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 08:21 - Nov 29 with 4082 views
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 07:16 - Nov 29 by giant_stow
I started to watch the video but bailed quite soon when he started to describe what he'd seen - afraid it was too much for me. Can I ask you as someone I respect, how much truth is there, in what seems to be the main criticism, that he nit picks / asks for unreasonable evidence of rape / other crimes?
He basically says, journalists cannot scrutinise what they can't see. He also says that what he did see was horrific and will stay with him for the rest of his life.
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 07:16 - Nov 29 by giant_stow
I started to watch the video but bailed quite soon when he started to describe what he'd seen - afraid it was too much for me. Can I ask you as someone I respect, how much truth is there, in what seems to be the main criticism, that he nit picks / asks for unreasonable evidence of rape / other crimes?
He seemed quite shaken by it. All political tribalism aside and ignoring him for a minute, I imagine everyone who watched that briefing has struggled to process/deal with what they saw.
As for your question, he's saying that some of the claims are not supported by what they saw, nothing more than that I don't think. He assumes that they would have been shown the worst of what was available on film, which is a fair assumption - Israel wouldn't have held anything back given they were already showing beheadings. But he's also very open in acknowledging not everything would/could have been filmed. He specifically says that just because things like the rape and baby beheading claims weren't filmed doesn't mean they didn't happen. He's not a denier, which is how people seem to be trying to frame him. He's focusing on the film and ignoring witness testimonies though, which is a shortcoming imo.
He's also questioned some of the reports from other journalists who watched the broadcast, claiming that some were reporting the film showed certain actions when it didn't (and reckons he checked some of these claims with other journalists who saw it). I've no idea if any of that is true, but he's presenting his method and evidence. Only those who saw the films can verify that claim though. And that point about verification has been made by plenty of others - there is no independent expert verification of a lot of the incidents taking place in this conflict on both sides. Jones is open about that, and I'd be wary of anyone who's less open and claims absolute truth.
Sorry, that's a long/waffly answer. He's not explicitly saying anything wrong. I think we can all agree Hamas are evil, have committed awful crimes and deserve to be held to account and the Israeli people suffered the most vile attack. By questioning the official narrative, there's a good case for arguing he's being insensitive to the victims and maybe now isn't the time to raise these sorts of questions/doubts (but when is a good time?). Nit picking? yes, probably. But that's him - he's annoyingly persistent little so and so, so can see why he gets under the skin of people. A Hamas-supporting denier? Absolutely not imo.
Edit - Noggers above just summarised all of my waffle in two sentences lol.
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 08:53 - Nov 29 by Swansea_Blue
He seemed quite shaken by it. All political tribalism aside and ignoring him for a minute, I imagine everyone who watched that briefing has struggled to process/deal with what they saw.
As for your question, he's saying that some of the claims are not supported by what they saw, nothing more than that I don't think. He assumes that they would have been shown the worst of what was available on film, which is a fair assumption - Israel wouldn't have held anything back given they were already showing beheadings. But he's also very open in acknowledging not everything would/could have been filmed. He specifically says that just because things like the rape and baby beheading claims weren't filmed doesn't mean they didn't happen. He's not a denier, which is how people seem to be trying to frame him. He's focusing on the film and ignoring witness testimonies though, which is a shortcoming imo.
He's also questioned some of the reports from other journalists who watched the broadcast, claiming that some were reporting the film showed certain actions when it didn't (and reckons he checked some of these claims with other journalists who saw it). I've no idea if any of that is true, but he's presenting his method and evidence. Only those who saw the films can verify that claim though. And that point about verification has been made by plenty of others - there is no independent expert verification of a lot of the incidents taking place in this conflict on both sides. Jones is open about that, and I'd be wary of anyone who's less open and claims absolute truth.
Sorry, that's a long/waffly answer. He's not explicitly saying anything wrong. I think we can all agree Hamas are evil, have committed awful crimes and deserve to be held to account and the Israeli people suffered the most vile attack. By questioning the official narrative, there's a good case for arguing he's being insensitive to the victims and maybe now isn't the time to raise these sorts of questions/doubts (but when is a good time?). Nit picking? yes, probably. But that's him - he's annoyingly persistent little so and so, so can see why he gets under the skin of people. A Hamas-supporting denier? Absolutely not imo.
Edit - Noggers above just summarised all of my waffle in two sentences lol.
[Post edited 29 Nov 2023 8:54]
The world is not a better place for these YouTube rabbit hole dwellers. I’d even question his motives for even watching the Israeli footage - nobody needs to see that. The tragedy is Israel had to even release footage because inevitably both the far left and far right would be straight on the genocide denial/downplaying, as they’ve done since the holocaust.
We can all criticise the Israeli response (as we have), but nitpicking the chaotic events of the worst massacre of Jews since WW2 is a strange and unnecessary part of the whole tragedy to ‘just ask questions’ on.
-1
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 09:28 - Nov 29 with 3901 views
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 08:53 - Nov 29 by Swansea_Blue
He seemed quite shaken by it. All political tribalism aside and ignoring him for a minute, I imagine everyone who watched that briefing has struggled to process/deal with what they saw.
As for your question, he's saying that some of the claims are not supported by what they saw, nothing more than that I don't think. He assumes that they would have been shown the worst of what was available on film, which is a fair assumption - Israel wouldn't have held anything back given they were already showing beheadings. But he's also very open in acknowledging not everything would/could have been filmed. He specifically says that just because things like the rape and baby beheading claims weren't filmed doesn't mean they didn't happen. He's not a denier, which is how people seem to be trying to frame him. He's focusing on the film and ignoring witness testimonies though, which is a shortcoming imo.
He's also questioned some of the reports from other journalists who watched the broadcast, claiming that some were reporting the film showed certain actions when it didn't (and reckons he checked some of these claims with other journalists who saw it). I've no idea if any of that is true, but he's presenting his method and evidence. Only those who saw the films can verify that claim though. And that point about verification has been made by plenty of others - there is no independent expert verification of a lot of the incidents taking place in this conflict on both sides. Jones is open about that, and I'd be wary of anyone who's less open and claims absolute truth.
Sorry, that's a long/waffly answer. He's not explicitly saying anything wrong. I think we can all agree Hamas are evil, have committed awful crimes and deserve to be held to account and the Israeli people suffered the most vile attack. By questioning the official narrative, there's a good case for arguing he's being insensitive to the victims and maybe now isn't the time to raise these sorts of questions/doubts (but when is a good time?). Nit picking? yes, probably. But that's him - he's annoyingly persistent little so and so, so can see why he gets under the skin of people. A Hamas-supporting denier? Absolutely not imo.
Edit - Noggers above just summarised all of my waffle in two sentences lol.
[Post edited 29 Nov 2023 8:54]
This is perhaps why trotting out the commentary of the likes of Zac Goldsmith, who ran a patently Islamophobic campaign to (fail to) become Mayor of London, isn't really helpful. Countering people you consider to be bad actors using the views of other bad actors doesn't lead anywhere especially positive and there's been more than one wilful misrepresentation of things Jones has said shared on this thread.
The world is not a better place for these YouTube rabbit hole dwellers. I’d even question his motives for even watching the Israeli footage - nobody needs to see that. The tragedy is Israel had to even release footage because inevitably both the far left and far right would be straight on the genocide denial/downplaying, as they’ve done since the holocaust.
We can all criticise the Israeli response (as we have), but nitpicking the chaotic events of the worst massacre of Jews since WW2 is a strange and unnecessary part of the whole tragedy to ‘just ask questions’ on.
Nobody serious is saying that Hamas didn't commit atrocities and the massacre can absolutely be condemned.
Given the breaking of international law, war crimes being carried out and genocidal rhetoric of the Israeli leadership, I think having the worst atrocities mischaracterised as "40 babies were beheaded" or the allegations of mass rape are exceptionally dangerous.
There is a propaganda war to dehumanise and justify violent actions too. I don't trust Twitter users or forum posters to have the same need to verify facts — that's an inherent weakness of social media and why it isn't a source in itself — but journalists need to record the facts where they can.
It's bad enough when we dealt with something like Brexit where verified facts weren't as important as they needed to be. But utterly frightening in a live war with one side hell-bent on destroying the other pretty much regardless of the millions of civilian lives that are really at stake.
Pronouns: He/Him
1
The sad decline of Owen Jones on 09:46 - Nov 29 with 3834 views
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
