| The sad decline of Owen Jones 09:09 - Nov 20 with 26916 views | NeedhamChris |
I used to agree with a lot of what Owen was about even if his delivery was a bit much.
However, he's effectively now just an arm of the Hamas propaganda unit. A sad, sad decline. |  |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 09:52 - Nov 29 with 4534 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 09:44 - Nov 29 by Darth_Koont |
Nobody serious is saying that Hamas didn't commit atrocities and the massacre can absolutely be condemned.
Given the breaking of international law, war crimes being carried out and genocidal rhetoric of the Israeli leadership, I think having the worst atrocities mischaracterised as "40 babies were beheaded" or the allegations of mass rape are exceptionally dangerous.
There is a propaganda war to dehumanise and justify violent actions too. I don't trust Twitter users or forum posters to have the same need to verify facts — that's an inherent weakness of social media and why it isn't a source in itself — but journalists need to record the facts where they can.
It's bad enough when we dealt with something like Brexit where verified facts weren't as important as they needed to be. But utterly frightening in a live war with one side hell-bent on destroying the other pretty much regardless of the millions of civilian lives that are really at stake. |
Unless he’s secretly in Five Eyes, or Mossad, he’s not in a position to verify or deny the events. He knows know more than you or I. | | | |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 10:03 - Nov 29 with 4474 views | Darth_Koont |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 09:52 - Nov 29 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Unless he’s secretly in Five Eyes, or Mossad, he’s not in a position to verify or deny the events. He knows know more than you or I. |
I don't think he's ever said that he is. But other journalists and independent bodies should be able to verify facts, surely?
Leaving it as a free-for-all for people to say whatever they want is a short step from justifying doing whatever they want. Which is what we're seeing.
That's not alarmism, given the millions of lives that are in the balance. And I'll return to the quote that underpins Jones's video:
"When you learn of the horrors which humans are capable of inflicting against each other, you either allow these horrors to deepen your humanity or you use those horrors to numb your humanity so that you can be complicit in even more, and indeed often, greater horrors." |  |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 10:03 - Nov 29 with 4478 views | blueasfook |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 09:46 - Nov 29 by Zapers |
Why should it be removed.
Its just one more persons opinion, and no more offensive than some of the other posts that you read on this particular subject.
Trust me, I find some of the stuff you write offensive, but it doesn't necessitate removing. |
Indeed. It's pathetic. I was just ignoring him crying. |  |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 10:10 - Nov 29 with 4427 views | giant_stow |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 08:53 - Nov 29 by Swansea_Blue |
He seemed quite shaken by it. All political tribalism aside and ignoring him for a minute, I imagine everyone who watched that briefing has struggled to process/deal with what they saw.
As for your question, he's saying that some of the claims are not supported by what they saw, nothing more than that I don't think. He assumes that they would have been shown the worst of what was available on film, which is a fair assumption - Israel wouldn't have held anything back given they were already showing beheadings. But he's also very open in acknowledging not everything would/could have been filmed. He specifically says that just because things like the rape and baby beheading claims weren't filmed doesn't mean they didn't happen. He's not a denier, which is how people seem to be trying to frame him. He's focusing on the film and ignoring witness testimonies though, which is a shortcoming imo.
He's also questioned some of the reports from other journalists who watched the broadcast, claiming that some were reporting the film showed certain actions when it didn't (and reckons he checked some of these claims with other journalists who saw it). I've no idea if any of that is true, but he's presenting his method and evidence. Only those who saw the films can verify that claim though. And that point about verification has been made by plenty of others - there is no independent expert verification of a lot of the incidents taking place in this conflict on both sides. Jones is open about that, and I'd be wary of anyone who's less open and claims absolute truth.
Sorry, that's a long/waffly answer. He's not explicitly saying anything wrong. I think we can all agree Hamas are evil, have committed awful crimes and deserve to be held to account and the Israeli people suffered the most vile attack. By questioning the official narrative, there's a good case for arguing he's being insensitive to the victims and maybe now isn't the time to raise these sorts of questions/doubts (but when is a good time?). Nit picking? yes, probably. But that's him - he's annoyingly persistent little so and so, so can see why he gets under the skin of people. A Hamas-supporting denier? Absolutely not imo.
Edit - Noggers above just summarised all of my waffle in two sentences lol. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 8:54]
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Thanks for your thoughts mr., appreciated |  |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 10:18 - Nov 29 with 4409 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
The thing about Owen Jones is that, if you listen attentively
and analyse carefully what he says, ultimately, it's all about Owen Jones. | | | |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 10:22 - Nov 29 with 4374 views | MattinLondon |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 08:37 - Nov 29 by noggin |
He basically says, journalists cannot scrutinise what they can't see. He also says that what he did see was horrific and will stay with him for the rest of his life. |
Despite the emotion attached to both the subject matter as well as to the footage he watched, Owen Jones approaches this in quite a neutral manner. Matter-of-fact in style, and whilst acknowledging the sheer horror of the attack, he doesn’t allow emotions to cloud his commentary.
His ‘want’ to scrutinise what he has or hadn’t seen might well seem cold-hearted to some but he is correct in this. Throughout the video he does not shy away from describing the brutality he’s seen and is explicit in his condemnation of the murder of civilians.
Maybe the fact that he isn’t overly emotional and responded to criticism to his politics within his commentary might well [to some] appear that he is being somewhat indulgent. But I think he does deserve the right to reply. |  | | |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 10:37 - Nov 29 with 4314 views | Darth_Koont |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 10:18 - Nov 29 by ArnoldMoorhen |
The thing about Owen Jones is that, if you listen attentively
and analyse carefully what he says, ultimately, it's all about Owen Jones. |
The irony being that's the problem with the vast majority of his detractors — they rarely if ever engage with what he says but instead wrestle with his "Owen Jonesness". | |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 10:59 - Nov 29 with 4219 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 10:37 - Nov 29 by Darth_Koont |
The irony being that's the problem with the vast majority of his detractors — they rarely if ever engage with what he says but instead wrestle with his "Owen Jonesness". |
But that is true of many commentators, in many countries, from all over the political spectrum.
There's a load of people who have been able to buy nice houses in London because they do what many of us have done on here for years: spouted guff without being fully informed and then cherry picked evidence to support it when challenged.
And in the social media world they all know that curating their brand carefully is their actual "job".
The problem is that first 24 hour rolling news, then clickbait eternal scrolling, has created an insatiable demand for content, and because factual news updates frustratingly slowly for the Editors, they have had to transition to opinion over reportage to fill the gaps. And that has then led to the decay of journalistic standards and got us to where we are today: personality based, self-curated, public opinion shapers.
Dominic Cummings summed up his Brexit campaign as:
"If you are explaining, you are losing."
Owen Jones can't help but explain his opinions, which means he comes across as patronising to those who disagree with him, but as many of those who agree, broadly, with his side of the debate are University educated, we like to fool ourselves that we are listening to the arguments and thinking clearly
In fact we are just listening to personality based, cherry picking, opinion formers, most of the time, but we tell ourselves that that is better than agreeing with Lawrence Fox et al, and pat ourselves on the back.
The first casualty of war is truth. Maybe one day we will know more, but jumping to conclusions based on carefully selected video clips is dangerous, and summoning up the ghosts of wailing Palestinian children, as Jones does in one of these tweets to try and win an argument, is desecration and does them no good service.
Hamas murder civilians. The IDF have been told by Netanyahu to murder ten times as many civilians. Both of these things are evil and nit-picking about whether a particular hospital had a Hamas compound in it is just bullsheet. The IDF shouldn't be there. Full stop. | | | |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 11:06 - Nov 29 with 4178 views | noggin |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 09:46 - Nov 29 by Zapers |
Why should it be removed.
Its just one more persons opinion, and no more offensive than some of the other posts that you read on this particular subject.
Trust me, I find some of the stuff you write offensive, but it doesn't necessitate removing. |
It's obviously not his opinion though. |  |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 11:14 - Nov 29 with 4114 views | noggin |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 10:03 - Nov 29 by blueasfook |
Indeed. It's pathetic. I was just ignoring him crying. |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 11:22 - Nov 29 with 4068 views | Darth_Koont |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 10:59 - Nov 29 by ArnoldMoorhen |
But that is true of many commentators, in many countries, from all over the political spectrum.
There's a load of people who have been able to buy nice houses in London because they do what many of us have done on here for years: spouted guff without being fully informed and then cherry picked evidence to support it when challenged.
And in the social media world they all know that curating their brand carefully is their actual "job".
The problem is that first 24 hour rolling news, then clickbait eternal scrolling, has created an insatiable demand for content, and because factual news updates frustratingly slowly for the Editors, they have had to transition to opinion over reportage to fill the gaps. And that has then led to the decay of journalistic standards and got us to where we are today: personality based, self-curated, public opinion shapers.
Dominic Cummings summed up his Brexit campaign as:
"If you are explaining, you are losing."
Owen Jones can't help but explain his opinions, which means he comes across as patronising to those who disagree with him, but as many of those who agree, broadly, with his side of the debate are University educated, we like to fool ourselves that we are listening to the arguments and thinking clearly
In fact we are just listening to personality based, cherry picking, opinion formers, most of the time, but we tell ourselves that that is better than agreeing with Lawrence Fox et al, and pat ourselves on the back.
The first casualty of war is truth. Maybe one day we will know more, but jumping to conclusions based on carefully selected video clips is dangerous, and summoning up the ghosts of wailing Palestinian children, as Jones does in one of these tweets to try and win an argument, is desecration and does them no good service.
Hamas murder civilians. The IDF have been told by Netanyahu to murder ten times as many civilians. Both of these things are evil and nit-picking about whether a particular hospital had a Hamas compound in it is just bullsheet. The IDF shouldn't be there. Full stop. |
I won't disagree that the reality of media reporting is particularly worrying in terms of quality. It's 24 hour news with wall to wall coverage but more often than not insufficient depth and now with online editions looking for clickbait headlines and the need to get things moving on twitter with silly hot takes. Jones is better than most but by no means innocent in that arena even if he doesn't make the rules.
But it's important to state that most journalism is flagging news and potential stories rather than dutifully chronicling them. You still have to make sure that what's being said is trustworthy by being factual and verifiable.
Unfortunately, this is where we too often just let the stories and narratives fill the space where objective evidence and accurate reporting should be. Then we get the stories about the stories based on the aggro caused through letting the unsubstantiated narratives and their effects spread into real life.
So by all means doubt Owen Jones and his message unless/until you can find backing for them. But dismissing both out of hand seems odd when Jones really doesn't have any record of making stuff up.
And if you prefer someone else's take then point to that instead. | |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 14:37 - Nov 29 with 3936 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 09:36 - Nov 29 by unbelievablue |
Objectively, or because your politics don't align with his? Sincere question. I don't really see anything fundamentally nasty in him. |
I like plenty of people I don’t agree with and dislike many people on may have similar political opinions to me as you know.
When it comes to Owen Jones, I find his entire persona annoying, even if he was arguing what I believed in, I’m pretty sure I’d feel the same.
I said he’s a wrong un specifically on this has he has a history of questionable language but his latest YT video was in very bad taste (at best). After watching footage of vile war crimes he started questioning basically the official account of what happened in the next sentence. As in this was bad but not as bad as the IDF were saying type thing. A good example would be, noting that when he saw video of someone at the music festival who had limited (or one) bullets left, the terrorist asked someone in their car was a civilian or soldier. Almost to suggest actually it wasn’t all civilians, they were mainly going after Israeli soldiers. When we know for a fact hundreds of innocent festival goers were slain and massacred.
This is the mentality of the man, nit pick with his notebook through something that was undoubtedly for Israel, 9/11 x10 or worse when you look at the populous.
It’s this kind of stuff that when I speak to KW almost daily throughout this that brings her to tears, I’m just relieved her parents made it out. I’s why I’ve avoided it far more on here recently because of some of the nasty crap I read form a variety of posters. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 14:52]
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 15:22 - Nov 29 with 3873 views | noggin |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 14:37 - Nov 29 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
I like plenty of people I don’t agree with and dislike many people on may have similar political opinions to me as you know.
When it comes to Owen Jones, I find his entire persona annoying, even if he was arguing what I believed in, I’m pretty sure I’d feel the same.
I said he’s a wrong un specifically on this has he has a history of questionable language but his latest YT video was in very bad taste (at best). After watching footage of vile war crimes he started questioning basically the official account of what happened in the next sentence. As in this was bad but not as bad as the IDF were saying type thing. A good example would be, noting that when he saw video of someone at the music festival who had limited (or one) bullets left, the terrorist asked someone in their car was a civilian or soldier. Almost to suggest actually it wasn’t all civilians, they were mainly going after Israeli soldiers. When we know for a fact hundreds of innocent festival goers were slain and massacred.
This is the mentality of the man, nit pick with his notebook through something that was undoubtedly for Israel, 9/11 x10 or worse when you look at the populous.
It’s this kind of stuff that when I speak to KW almost daily throughout this that brings her to tears, I’m just relieved her parents made it out. I’s why I’ve avoided it far more on here recently because of some of the nasty crap I read form a variety of posters. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 14:52]
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He was invited to view the footage by the IDF so that, as a journalist, he could report on it. Presumably this was to, in some way, justify their attack on Gaza. He can't comment on what they didn't show him. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 15:29]
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 15:36 - Nov 29 with 3832 views | noggin |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 14:37 - Nov 29 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
I like plenty of people I don’t agree with and dislike many people on may have similar political opinions to me as you know.
When it comes to Owen Jones, I find his entire persona annoying, even if he was arguing what I believed in, I’m pretty sure I’d feel the same.
I said he’s a wrong un specifically on this has he has a history of questionable language but his latest YT video was in very bad taste (at best). After watching footage of vile war crimes he started questioning basically the official account of what happened in the next sentence. As in this was bad but not as bad as the IDF were saying type thing. A good example would be, noting that when he saw video of someone at the music festival who had limited (or one) bullets left, the terrorist asked someone in their car was a civilian or soldier. Almost to suggest actually it wasn’t all civilians, they were mainly going after Israeli soldiers. When we know for a fact hundreds of innocent festival goers were slain and massacred.
This is the mentality of the man, nit pick with his notebook through something that was undoubtedly for Israel, 9/11 x10 or worse when you look at the populous.
It’s this kind of stuff that when I speak to KW almost daily throughout this that brings her to tears, I’m just relieved her parents made it out. I’s why I’ve avoided it far more on here recently because of some of the nasty crap I read form a variety of posters. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 14:52]
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2 million Palestinians have no chance of "getting out" and thousands of children are dead as a consequence. You don't seem to have mentioned that. If 7th October was Israel's 9/11, what is the current situation for Palestinians?
An eye for an eye is as evil as the original attack by Hamas. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 15:43]
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 16:23 - Nov 29 with 3768 views | MattinLondon |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 14:37 - Nov 29 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
I like plenty of people I don’t agree with and dislike many people on may have similar political opinions to me as you know.
When it comes to Owen Jones, I find his entire persona annoying, even if he was arguing what I believed in, I’m pretty sure I’d feel the same.
I said he’s a wrong un specifically on this has he has a history of questionable language but his latest YT video was in very bad taste (at best). After watching footage of vile war crimes he started questioning basically the official account of what happened in the next sentence. As in this was bad but not as bad as the IDF were saying type thing. A good example would be, noting that when he saw video of someone at the music festival who had limited (or one) bullets left, the terrorist asked someone in their car was a civilian or soldier. Almost to suggest actually it wasn’t all civilians, they were mainly going after Israeli soldiers. When we know for a fact hundreds of innocent festival goers were slain and massacred.
This is the mentality of the man, nit pick with his notebook through something that was undoubtedly for Israel, 9/11 x10 or worse when you look at the populous.
It’s this kind of stuff that when I speak to KW almost daily throughout this that brings her to tears, I’m just relieved her parents made it out. I’s why I’ve avoided it far more on here recently because of some of the nasty crap I read form a variety of posters. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 14:52]
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He made it clear that civilians were murdered by Hamas and explicitly expressed condemnation for their murder. To emphasis this he used various examples - the festival goers, the Thai worker, two young boys who witnessed the murder of their father. He even condemned the murder of unarmed soldiers. At no point did he suggest that Hamas were mainly going after soliders.
By all means criticise him if you think that he’s wrong but don’t beat him with a stick which is plainly wrong. | | | |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:23 - Nov 29 with 3716 views | reusersfreekicks |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 07:03 - Nov 29 by Swansea_Blue |
‘Who gives a feck?’ Seemingly half of the Twittersphere. It’s very odd.
He’s saying:
- the attacks on 7th October were horrific beyond imagination and seeing the footage will haunt him forever
- Hamas undoubtedly murdered innocent civilians
- Hamas broke the Geneva Convention through their murdering of civilians and military personnel and the subsequent treatment of captives
- There are some possible inconsistencies in the official narrative, that may nonetheless have reasonable explanations and don’t necessarily prove other atrocities not seen in the clips didn’t take place
Things most people agree with. Yet here we are - it’s being spun that he’s a Hamas sympathiser. It’s purely tribal and rather pathetic from what I can see.
I only watched the video to see if the criticisms were justified. I’m not sure they are, but you’re right that he’s not important in the grand scheme of things. Or maybe he is, as he’s prepared to challenge authority in an increasingly authoritarian world? Maybe that’s a leap too far though and he’s just an annoying twerp. Who knows. |
When I have seen him on screen his condemnation of the Hamas attacks has been unequivoval.
Then he seems to get challenged as if he hasn't said it.
I don't know what he thinks etc but think his views and statements seem to get mis represented |  | | |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:30 - Nov 29 with 3687 views | Herbivore |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:23 - Nov 29 by reusersfreekicks |
When I have seen him on screen his condemnation of the Hamas attacks has been unequivoval.
Then he seems to get challenged as if he hasn't said it.
I don't know what he thinks etc but think his views and statements seem to get mis represented |
I've noticed this has happened a lot on this topic, unfortunately. People keep to jump on what they think/expect someone to have said rather than on what they've actually said. |  |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:32 - Nov 29 with 3664 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:30 - Nov 29 by Herbivore |
I've noticed this has happened a lot on this topic, unfortunately. People keep to jump on what they think/expect someone to have said rather than on what they've actually said. |
The industrial language in this video may offend, and I don't agree with some of the takers, but I think this is a perfect example of rebutting Jones sh1tty tak on the footage he saw.
edit. Having watched the whole thing it goes quite a way off what I would call acceptable criticism. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 17:42]
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:39 - Nov 29 with 3628 views | Herbivore |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:32 - Nov 29 by GlasgowBlue |
The industrial language in this video may offend, and I don't agree with some of the takers, but I think this is a perfect example of rebutting Jones sh1tty tak on the footage he saw.
edit. Having watched the whole thing it goes quite a way off what I would call acceptable criticism. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 17:42]
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I'm not going to spend 18 minutes of my life watching that to be honest, but I don't know that posting another social media link to another account that is very heavily invested in delineating and choosing a 'side' is exactly countering the kind of stuff I'm talking about. | |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:43 - Nov 29 with 3601 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:39 - Nov 29 by Herbivore |
I'm not going to spend 18 minutes of my life watching that to be honest, but I don't know that posting another social media link to another account that is very heavily invested in delineating and choosing a 'side' is exactly countering the kind of stuff I'm talking about. |
Yeah. see my edit. It does vear away from the original point being made. I should have watched the whole 18 minutes rather than the first six minutes which I was pretty much in agreement with. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 17:44]
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:44 - Nov 29 with 3601 views | Herbivore |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:43 - Nov 29 by GlasgowBlue |
Yeah. see my edit. It does vear away from the original point being made. I should have watched the whole 18 minutes rather than the first six minutes which I was pretty much in agreement with. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 17:44]
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Fair play. | |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:46 - Nov 29 with 3577 views | Darth_Koont |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:43 - Nov 29 by GlasgowBlue |
Yeah. see my edit. It does vear away from the original point being made. I should have watched the whole 18 minutes rather than the first six minutes which I was pretty much in agreement with. [Post edited 29 Nov 2023 17:44]
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The guy is a world-class numpty. I expected nothing less. | |
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| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:48 - Nov 29 with 3565 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 16:23 - Nov 29 by MattinLondon |
He made it clear that civilians were murdered by Hamas and explicitly expressed condemnation for their murder. To emphasis this he used various examples - the festival goers, the Thai worker, two young boys who witnessed the murder of their father. He even condemned the murder of unarmed soldiers. At no point did he suggest that Hamas were mainly going after soliders.
By all means criticise him if you think that he’s wrong but don’t beat him with a stick which is plainly wrong. |
Did I make the bit up about what he said regarding the music festival and the civilian in his car then?Why would you mention it, if it’s not some kind of sick weird play to put Hamas in a better light about their intentions that day.
He’s a horrible nasty piece of work. | | | |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:49 - Nov 29 with 3552 views | noggin |
| The sad decline of Owen Jones on 17:48 - Nov 29 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Did I make the bit up about what he said regarding the music festival and the civilian in his car then?Why would you mention it, if it’s not some kind of sick weird play to put Hamas in a better light about their intentions that day.
He’s a horrible nasty piece of work. |
Have you considered that it might have happened? The IDF had full control over what he saw. | |
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