| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? 22:35 - Jun 20 with 7788 views | redrickstuhaart |
Change the shape, change the approach, find a new way mid tournament? |  | | |  |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 09:57 - Jun 21 with 2715 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 08:37 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
He has done in the previous two tournaments - after the Scotland draw we saw Saka come in and change things, and after the USA game in WC it was Henderson coming in to give us the balance back and pushing Bellingham on
For all the talk of Southgate, the players look fooked to me - we need players running off Kane, always have done. I think personnel he is getting it wrong with Foden on the left (Should always be Rashford there for me, but guess Gordon in this tournament)....but Bellingham and Saka just don't seem to have the fitness to make runs in behind. Saka has made a few but him and JB just look like it is about conserving energy and playing in fits and starts.
If those runs were being made constantly then Trent in midfielder would be working better because he could find them, he's broken the lines a few times so far in both games with good passes but there is so little energy and movement up top.
We really need McKenna style in it - front 4 run themselves into the ground for 60 minutes then get replaced for the last 30.
I'm not a fan of Trippier at LB, but for all Southgate's criticisms it's got to be hard when no one seems fit and is making basic errors. Rice was excellent Sunday, but I've never seen him play like he did yesterday. For their goal that pass from Kane is something he does in his sleep and one of his big weapons to switch play and he totally shanks it. From literally the first minute we were misplacing simple passes.
I don't think set up wise there is masses wrong - but we've got to get runners around Kane and to make the pitch bigger |
I don’t buy this ‘England players are tired’ sh1te, gets rolled out every tournament, conveniently ignoring the number of world class players in other teams who’ve played 60 games this season.
Why after 8 years ‘coaching’ England does nobody have a clue what they are supposed to be doing. It’s not really advanced coaching like we’d see from McKenna (and some of the squad have seen from Pep). That GS says his coaching is more about ‘empathy and understanding, than improving players’ certainly shows on the pitch.
If they’ve not played together enough that’s also GS fault, since he spent the games preceding the tournament fannying around with players that had little chance of making the tournament squad. Pick a core group of players and stick with it, then we might play like a team rather than 11 individuals ambling around our own half. | | | |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 10:02 - Jun 21 with 2680 views | itfcjoe |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 09:39 - Jun 21 by CrayonKing |
We were poor with the ball and poor without it. I'd say that counts as masses wrong, although I do agree it's down to more than just the way they're set-up.
The more worrying thing is that from the post-match interviews they don't seem to have any idea how to fix it. Talk of "finding solutions" but surely that's what the last few years should have been about?!
How can you be manager for 8 years and your team still not know the gameplan? do we press, do we sit back and hit on the counter? nobody seems to know. The manager says we wanted to press, but the team certainly didn't. It's a mess.
I do think Southgate gets an element of over-the-top criticism sometimes, but it seems clear to me that his time is coming to an end |
I think a big problem is the squad doesn't look in any way fit, and guess we need to know if they are getting fitter with more minutes in their or just doing their best to get through - sadly it looks like the latter to me and the key men look goosed.
I wouldn't worry too much about post game interviews, they are always like that and we generally have improved throughout tournaments - for me the main worry with them is the players have tended to be able to block out the noise and carry on but for me that is creeping in to the camp
I think it's clear Southgate will end at this tournament - so hopefully he can go back to what he was doing and picking players who fir the system better opposed to being in better form |  |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 10:04 - Jun 21 with 2665 views | itfcjoe |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 09:57 - Jun 21 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I don’t buy this ‘England players are tired’ sh1te, gets rolled out every tournament, conveniently ignoring the number of world class players in other teams who’ve played 60 games this season.
Why after 8 years ‘coaching’ England does nobody have a clue what they are supposed to be doing. It’s not really advanced coaching like we’d see from McKenna (and some of the squad have seen from Pep). That GS says his coaching is more about ‘empathy and understanding, than improving players’ certainly shows on the pitch.
If they’ve not played together enough that’s also GS fault, since he spent the games preceding the tournament fannying around with players that had little chance of making the tournament squad. Pick a core group of players and stick with it, then we might play like a team rather than 11 individuals ambling around our own half. |
You can not buy it but it is obvious that Kane is unfit, he's played 90 minutes once in the last couple of months and looks heavy, Bellingham and Saka are managing injuries, missed the warm ups and are playing in fits and starts. They give it a lot for 2-3 mins in a phase then disappear
I don't think every player is struggling with it, but those 3 clearly are | |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 10:17 - Jun 21 with 2629 views | OldFart71 |
Yes Southgate's results stand up as one of the most successful England managers, but fans much prefer a Terry Venables, Malcolm Allison type of person who has a bit of charisma about them rather than being Mr Bland. It's obvious that putting players in this England team out of position isn't working. Players like Foden and Bellingham obviously can't play in the same team. Remember Gerrard and Lampard. Obviously Southgate doesn't as they couldn't both play in the same team. Have one on the bench and then bring them on. Rice's passing last night was atrocious. For me the best England players have been Saka, Walker and Guehi the rest haven't turned up. Yeah Bellingham was decent the first game, but disappeared last night. Scrap this experiment of Arnold in midfield. I'd play Watkins up front as opposed to Kane. It has to be asked " Why was Luke Shaw taken when he's not fit" This isn't the first time players have been in the England squad and not played a game. | | | |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 10:25 - Jun 21 with 2594 views | davblue |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 09:14 - Jun 21 by BloomBlue |
But Kane has always dropped deep for club and country, that has often allowed him to score a lot of goals. He drops deep gets the ball, plays it wide and then he arrives a few seconds later in the box unmarked.
The problem is the players aren't running beyond Kane. |
i personally don't believe he's played that deep, i have no evidence just the eye test, there was no out ball either, it's not just resolved with runners beyond Kane. He needs to mix it up , no problem with him coming deep at times, but he's doing far too much, we had no one who we could pass the ball into his feet, Kane can hold the ball up as well. |  | | |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 10:30 - Jun 21 with 2573 views | davblue |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 09:05 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
I think a number of those issues can get sorted with a couple of changes though.
If you start getting runners in behind, then Kane dropping deep works, then the natural gaps between D, M and A work, then the midfield 2 are able to play more to their strengths then the energy is back in by the runners.
Obviously that doesn't help with the pressing, and Kane can't do that on his own so either need to not press, or press in a later phase as opposed to the mish mash we showed....or the quality of passing....or the players seeming to naturally drop off post a goal but think a lot is sorted if we had say Watkins, Bellingham and Saka as the 3 behind Kane busting their nuts off all game getting in behind and telling Trent to find them. makes the pitch bigger and pushes them back |
quite possibly, do we look like a well coached team though?
Im not a Southgate hater, think he's done a very good job in terms of results and we shouldn't expect brilliant football every game and there are different ways to win a game, but we won't win anything with our current style, getting ahead then sitting back unless we are lucky, we have to be braver.
Maybe style will come with different personnel, i don't think AA has been bad, but imo he's not a central midfielder. | | | |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 10:32 - Jun 21 with 2558 views | PioneerBlue |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 07:51 - Jun 21 by NedPlimpton |
It's on the players to work it out on the training pitch?
Thank God we have McKenna!! |
We are mid flight tournament. There are limits to what a coaching group will be able to do in the very few days that exist between games; players do have to input significantly to how they operate more so than club level where they typically get days to prepare for each match and weeks of repetition to build team cohesion | |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 10:41 - Jun 21 with 2535 views | mellowblue |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 09:54 - Jun 21 by GlasgowBlue |
It was 1990 and it was more a case of player power forcing the change on Sir Bobby, with us playing a sweeper system with three central defenders and wing backs. |
We pretty much matched what Germany was already doing with their formation. | | | |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 12:12 - Jun 21 with 2492 views | Nutkins_Return |
Southgate has done good things over his tenure with squad and built a strong culture. He did a good job in the previous tournaments largely through this and some ok structure and tactics albeit a bit negative.
This tournament I think it's clear some of what went before has gone (novelty/fresh approach now not there) and the coaching/limited tactics are there for all to see. One tournament too many. Could see it coming. It will be an absolute waste of this squad. Such a shame.
He does have the courage to make changes. I just don't think the camp have to motivational people or the coaching ability. No patterns of play etc. | |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 12:28 - Jun 21 with 2473 views | tractordownsouth |
There are two main problems with the lineup.
The first is a lack of a natural left back. It makes the pitch much more narrow and against teams that sit deep that makes it much harder to play through. In turn it makes Foden, who naturally likes to drift inside, a lot less effective. At the time it seemed odd not to take a second left-footed LB and it looks that way still. Even if it was just to play the first couple of games until Shaw became available, like how Mings deputised for Maguire at the start of the last Euros.
The second is that the wingers either side of Kane like the ball to feet and don't look to make runs beyond the last defender. Saka does at times but particularly in the first half yesterday he struggled and Foden doesn't do it at all. It's why I don't think Cole Palmer is the solution. He's excellent but not the right type of player. Again there's a knock on effect of making Alexander-Arnold less useful because his long passing is better suited to speedy wingers rather than more technical ones.
Bellingham as an 8 isn't the answer either - he is excellent as a 10 and despite his poor performance yesterday, his running power compliments Kane well. We'd get completely steamrollered against the French or Germans with a Rice, Bellingham, Foden midfield in the latter stages.
If Shaw is fit I'd go with this for the Slovenia match. I don't think Walker's done anything to deserve being dropped but Alexander-Arnold would be better utilised from right back and with Gordon on the left. With Guehi in the backline instead of Maguire, having the recovery pace from RB isn't as crucial either.
Pickford
Alexander-Arnold
Stones
Guehi
Shaw
Rice
Wharton
Saka
Bellingham
Gordon
Kane |  |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 12:41 - Jun 21 with 2451 views | mellowblue |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 12:28 - Jun 21 by tractordownsouth |
There are two main problems with the lineup.
The first is a lack of a natural left back. It makes the pitch much more narrow and against teams that sit deep that makes it much harder to play through. In turn it makes Foden, who naturally likes to drift inside, a lot less effective. At the time it seemed odd not to take a second left-footed LB and it looks that way still. Even if it was just to play the first couple of games until Shaw became available, like how Mings deputised for Maguire at the start of the last Euros.
The second is that the wingers either side of Kane like the ball to feet and don't look to make runs beyond the last defender. Saka does at times but particularly in the first half yesterday he struggled and Foden doesn't do it at all. It's why I don't think Cole Palmer is the solution. He's excellent but not the right type of player. Again there's a knock on effect of making Alexander-Arnold less useful because his long passing is better suited to speedy wingers rather than more technical ones.
Bellingham as an 8 isn't the answer either - he is excellent as a 10 and despite his poor performance yesterday, his running power compliments Kane well. We'd get completely steamrollered against the French or Germans with a Rice, Bellingham, Foden midfield in the latter stages.
If Shaw is fit I'd go with this for the Slovenia match. I don't think Walker's done anything to deserve being dropped but Alexander-Arnold would be better utilised from right back and with Gordon on the left. With Guehi in the backline instead of Maguire, having the recovery pace from RB isn't as crucial either.
Pickford
Alexander-Arnold
Stones
Guehi
Shaw
Rice
Wharton
Saka
Bellingham
Gordon
Kane |
Personally I think Saka is looking jaded. 260 + games for Arsenal and England and still only 22. That is a heck of a lot of work for a 22 year old to have done. | | | |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 12:50 - Jun 21 with 2443 views | BloomBlue |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 10:17 - Jun 21 by OldFart71 |
Yes Southgate's results stand up as one of the most successful England managers, but fans much prefer a Terry Venables, Malcolm Allison type of person who has a bit of charisma about them rather than being Mr Bland. It's obvious that putting players in this England team out of position isn't working. Players like Foden and Bellingham obviously can't play in the same team. Remember Gerrard and Lampard. Obviously Southgate doesn't as they couldn't both play in the same team. Have one on the bench and then bring them on. Rice's passing last night was atrocious. For me the best England players have been Saka, Walker and Guehi the rest haven't turned up. Yeah Bellingham was decent the first game, but disappeared last night. Scrap this experiment of Arnold in midfield. I'd play Watkins up front as opposed to Kane. It has to be asked " Why was Luke Shaw taken when he's not fit" This isn't the first time players have been in the England squad and not played a game. |
Do fans really want a Venabales type manager?
I think England fans want to actually win a tournament. We've had the flair, and it failed. I honestly don't think England fans will give a f**k if we did a Greece and bored our way to 1-0 wins if it resulted in England finally winning a tournament. As Matteo the Italian in my local always laughs about, do Italian fans care that they are invariably boring at tournaments? Nope all they care about is 4 World Cup and 2 Euro winners against their name |  | | |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 12:53 - Jun 21 with 2437 views | HighgateBlue |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 10:04 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
You can not buy it but it is obvious that Kane is unfit, he's played 90 minutes once in the last couple of months and looks heavy, Bellingham and Saka are managing injuries, missed the warm ups and are playing in fits and starts. They give it a lot for 2-3 mins in a phase then disappear
I don't think every player is struggling with it, but those 3 clearly are |
If that's right, then Southgate is being truly negligent. Those players would of course be on most people's team sheet if everyone is fit, but they also play in an area of the pitch in which we are not struggling for an alternative option. Especially Bellingham and Saka. Foden goes to the middle, and play two from Eze, Palmer, Gordon (and even include Grealish in the squad if Saka really is unfit).
But I don't think they're as badly unfit as all that. Not one of the pundits mentioned anything, and (a) they are closer to the squad than any of us, (b) they are experts, and (c) they were just as annoyed as average punters and looking for reasons as to why England sucked. Shearer was talking about Kane in terms of an age-related decline in pace, rather than basic unfitness. |  | | |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 16:02 - Jun 21 with 2363 views | Radlett_blue |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 09:14 - Jun 21 by BloomBlue |
But Kane has always dropped deep for club and country, that has often allowed him to score a lot of goals. He drops deep gets the ball, plays it wide and then he arrives a few seconds later in the box unmarked.
The problem is the players aren't running beyond Kane. |
Kane is 31 next month & he seems to have lost a yard of pace. Yes, he was always a good link up player, but against Denmark he seemed more likely to be in possession on the edge of our box rather than theirs. The only player who was running beyond their line was Saka, who was mysteriously subbed by genius Southgate. I would start Watkins ahead of Kane (won't happen, Southgate doesn't want to be pilloried like Graham Taylor when he subbed off Gary Lineker) or the alternative is to find a pacier alternative to Foden on the left. Having Trippier at LB doesn't help, but this was pointed out when Southgate picked his squad. |  |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 16:48 - Jun 21 with 2335 views | ElephantintheRoom |
It was the players who decided on the way to play - although Robson deserves a bit of credit for seeing sense. Soouthgate has no deceisive leadership group | |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 17:05 - Jun 21 with 2327 views | OldFart71 |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 12:12 - Jun 21 by Nutkins_Return |
Southgate has done good things over his tenure with squad and built a strong culture. He did a good job in the previous tournaments largely through this and some ok structure and tactics albeit a bit negative.
This tournament I think it's clear some of what went before has gone (novelty/fresh approach now not there) and the coaching/limited tactics are there for all to see. One tournament too many. Could see it coming. It will be an absolute waste of this squad. Such a shame.
He does have the courage to make changes. I just don't think the camp have to motivational people or the coaching ability. No patterns of play etc. |
The bookies must love England playing in tournaments. Every time a European Championship or a World Cup comes around the England team gets lauded as the best ever only to be nowhere near the likes of Italy, Spain, Germany. No matter how poor the Germans are coming into a tournament they always manage to be up for it. We on the other hand look like a team who would rather be on the beach. Whilst I hate giving any credit to the Scots at least they had fire in their bellies after their first game defeat. | | | |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 17:26 - Jun 21 with 2298 views | Radlett_blue |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 17:05 - Jun 21 by OldFart71 |
The bookies must love England playing in tournaments. Every time a European Championship or a World Cup comes around the England team gets lauded as the best ever only to be nowhere near the likes of Italy, Spain, Germany. No matter how poor the Germans are coming into a tournament they always manage to be up for it. We on the other hand look like a team who would rather be on the beach. Whilst I hate giving any credit to the Scots at least they had fire in their bellies after their first game defeat. |
Hmm.."nowhere near"? England lost the last Euros on penalty kicks & also made the semi final of the World Cup 2 years earlier. Yes, they have been on the downgrade since & as a bookie I would lay them at these short prices all day long. | |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 18:06 - Jun 21 with 2267 views | Churchman |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 10:02 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
I think a big problem is the squad doesn't look in any way fit, and guess we need to know if they are getting fitter with more minutes in their or just doing their best to get through - sadly it looks like the latter to me and the key men look goosed.
I wouldn't worry too much about post game interviews, they are always like that and we generally have improved throughout tournaments - for me the main worry with them is the players have tended to be able to block out the noise and carry on but for me that is creeping in to the camp
I think it's clear Southgate will end at this tournament - so hopefully he can go back to what he was doing and picking players who fir the system better opposed to being in better form |
Every other teams’ players look fit. Scotland’s players weren’t limping around blowing through their rear ends the day before yesterday. If Kane isn’t fit why is he in the team? That’s Southgate’s decision - if he’s making any.
At the end of last season Mick Mills made a really good point about tiredness when asked about ITFCs two week mini break. He said it’s not about physical fitness. All the players bar those recovering from injury were perfectly fit by that stage of the season (43 games!). Where it makes a big difference is the mental side. The players got a chance to rest/reset mentally. I think he had a point.
When I look at the England players, there’s no reason in 2024 why their physical fitness should be better or worse than any other team, bar of course a sick note left back - your only left back (Southgate’s decision). So unless they’ve spent the last month in the tattoo parlour, hair stylists or on the lash I don’t see how physical fitness can be a factor. So why do they look like pallbearers at a funeral?
A few thoughts/possibilities. How the team is set up, whether the players understand what they are being asked to do and are capable of doing it. Lastly, do they really want to be there? Assuming they do are they interested in what Southgate has to say?
When I look at the other teams, their passion, heart, desire, I wonder. [Post edited 21 Jun 2024 18:07]
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 21:35 - Jun 21 with 2202 views | tractordownsouth |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 17:05 - Jun 21 by OldFart71 |
The bookies must love England playing in tournaments. Every time a European Championship or a World Cup comes around the England team gets lauded as the best ever only to be nowhere near the likes of Italy, Spain, Germany. No matter how poor the Germans are coming into a tournament they always manage to be up for it. We on the other hand look like a team who would rather be on the beach. Whilst I hate giving any credit to the Scots at least they had fire in their bellies after their first game defeat. |
Eh? We've progressed further than Italy, Spain and Germany at each of the last three tournaments, with the exception of Italy in the last Euros. | |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 09:44 - Jun 22 with 2090 views | MK1 |
Comparing Southgate to Robson is a criminal offence. |  |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 08:56 - Jun 23 with 1999 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 22:41 - Jun 20 by BloomBlue |
If you're talking about the 1986 World Cup as I said on another post, Sir Bob's critics always said he only changed it because he was forced to change it with Byran Robson's injury and Wilkins sending off in the 2nd game, which meant they both had to miss the 3rd game.
Robson's critics always moaned he would never drop his favourites like Robson & Wilkins even though both had been cr&p in the first 2 games. |
Southgate’s record speaks for itself. It stands alongside Ramsey in terms of results and is certainly well ahead of Robsons. Interestingly if you allocate 3 pts for a win and 1 for a draw his record as England manager is a close match to Towns over the last two seasons.
There’s more to come |  | | |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 09:07 - Jun 23 with 1988 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 08:37 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
He has done in the previous two tournaments - after the Scotland draw we saw Saka come in and change things, and after the USA game in WC it was Henderson coming in to give us the balance back and pushing Bellingham on
For all the talk of Southgate, the players look fooked to me - we need players running off Kane, always have done. I think personnel he is getting it wrong with Foden on the left (Should always be Rashford there for me, but guess Gordon in this tournament)....but Bellingham and Saka just don't seem to have the fitness to make runs in behind. Saka has made a few but him and JB just look like it is about conserving energy and playing in fits and starts.
If those runs were being made constantly then Trent in midfielder would be working better because he could find them, he's broken the lines a few times so far in both games with good passes but there is so little energy and movement up top.
We really need McKenna style in it - front 4 run themselves into the ground for 60 minutes then get replaced for the last 30.
I'm not a fan of Trippier at LB, but for all Southgate's criticisms it's got to be hard when no one seems fit and is making basic errors. Rice was excellent Sunday, but I've never seen him play like he did yesterday. For their goal that pass from Kane is something he does in his sleep and one of his big weapons to switch play and he totally shanks it. From literally the first minute we were misplacing simple passes.
I don't think set up wise there is masses wrong - but we've got to get runners around Kane and to make the pitch bigger |
There is an interesting article in the Guardian today highlighting the fact that a number of players from the Saudi league are having good tournaments. In particular Kante for France. They suggest that these players are well rested after playing a less intense season. One of the players comments 5hat a season in the Premier league is so intense it’s like playing three in Saudi. | | | |
| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 12:45 - Jun 23 with 1919 views | SE1blue |
The one thing that Southgate could always bring England was unity and a level of positivity. Up until now he managed to keep the press and the fans off the team, but something feels very different this time around.
For me, it feels like he knows he’s done and is mentally checking out a little early. Was interested to read him commenting after the first game how he’s ‘ambivalent’ to England fans when they want more from the team. First time, I’ve seen him get drawn into this stuff and in the rest of the article he sounded a bit like Mick McCarthy just before he left (criticising fans expectations and playing the victim of circumstance - injuries and options).
His quality/skill was managing England’s expectation and getting the players to unite and deliver on the pitch. Without that, he’s not a master tactician and finding solutions that are more than just positive group vibes is probably beyond him this time. |  |
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| Does Southgate have the balls to do a Bobby Robson? on 13:47 - Jun 23 with 1864 views | Whos_blue |
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| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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