| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way 10:24 - Jul 9 with 10453 views | itfcsuth |
Games gone mad.
I’m not saying they aren’t bad players by the way, but for £20m a piece, Hull have done us like a kipper financially.
As a newly promoted club, you can’t get £20m signings wrong, and to be paying £20m a pop for Philogene & Greaves looks overpriced to me.
Rodon went for £10m last week. |  | | |  |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 16:31 - Jul 9 with 2273 views | Leaky |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 11:48 - Jul 9 by BseaBlue |
This is a great point and important thing to remember. Worst case scenario is that we have some excellent players that will aid another promotion push should we get relegated.
If we dont hold onto them, it means we should be on the receiving end of some decent fees which will no doubt then fund said promotion charge.
Hopefully that doesnt happen, but it certainly seems like smart business to me. |
As against the mob down the road spending peanuts and going down. At least we are going for it. |  | | |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 16:49 - Jul 9 with 2187 views | rickw |
We don't know the details of what makes that £40m it could be £10m then top ups if we make Champions League and they play for England! |  |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 17:27 - Jul 9 with 2125 views | Leaky |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 16:49 - Jul 9 by rickw |
We don't know the details of what makes that £40m it could be £10m then top ups if we make Champions League and they play for England! |
Then Town do a west ham & win the world cup | | | |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 17:31 - Jul 9 with 2114 views | ElephantintheRoom |
It’s not real money - it’s Prem money. Easy come easy go
The startling difference is average championship striker Hirst last year v average championship striker Delap this year. |  |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 17:34 - Jul 9 with 2103 views | farkenhell |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 17:31 - Jul 9 by ElephantintheRoom |
It’s not real money - it’s Prem money. Easy come easy go
The startling difference is average championship striker Hirst last year v average championship striker Delap this year. |
You're really going after those downvotes today aren't you? | | | |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 17:36 - Jul 9 with 2085 views | FrimleyBlue |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 17:31 - Jul 9 by ElephantintheRoom |
It’s not real money - it’s Prem money. Easy come easy go
The startling difference is average championship striker Hirst last year v average championship striker Delap this year. |
Liam delap has scored more goals at 21 than Ivan Toney had done at the same age.
The same ivan toney who's value in January was seen at £100 million and currently away on international duty.
Delap has also scored more goals than Harry kane had scored at the same age too.
The same Harry Kane that moved to Munich for £82 mill |  |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 17:43 - Jul 9 with 2058 views | Vaughan8 |
I'll admit, I was the same as the OP a few weeks ago. However, this is just the price for young(er) players who are going to have some resale value.
Even if we're not very good this season, we'll have a few players who teams will want and so are likely to be able to sell them on for a similar amount I should imagine.
£20m over 4 years is £5m a year for the accounts. Also, do we know the structure of the transfer fee yet?
I think you've just got to accept these high prices and trust the people in charge. they know the budgets etc (you'd hope!) | | | |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 18:25 - Jul 9 with 1999 views | Vegtablue |
I'd prefer us to be identifying the £5M versions a season before they show themselves to be the cream of the Championship too, but that comes with its own risks.
Philogene was 5th best in the league last season according to FotMob, 4th according to WhoScored. In tables usually biased towards attacking players, Greaves placed 10th on WhoScored (1st for CBs) and 29th on FotMob (3rd for CBs). Greaves outperformed Rodon and is three years younger with a longer contract, so unsurprising that he's costing a lot more. Hull fans are more gutted about him leaving than they are Philogene, for what that's worth.
I didn't want to believe £15M or £20M was the new normal for proven top young Championship talent when these numbers started rolling in, but the great inflation appears to have been established since 23/24 at least. If Omari is considered reasonable value at £18M+, Greaves and Philogene were always going to cost similar. Harwood-Bellis has cost Southampton £20M; I think Greaves is the better player. Southampton have also signed Ronnie Edwards for £3M, which is much more like it, but not with the view that he needs to hit the ground running or even play. Filling our squad up with prospects like that won't help us this season.
In Greaves and Philogene we've hopefully identified players who are operating at PL standard in the division below, alongside Omari. It's worth spending more on players you're convinced are good enough, rather than prospects who may or may not prove a steal, or overseas players who may or may not acclimatise in time. Time isn't on our side and these opportunities are rare.
If they don't go on to be PL starters (or equiv.) for years to come, here or elsewhere, we've got it wrong obviously. | | | |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 18:38 - Jul 9 with 1973 views | ScottCandage |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 11:27 - Jul 9 by textbackup |
We are buying very good young talent. It’s the price you pay.
Also, if we go down, we could likely hold onto them and have a bloody good crack at coming back up again with proven top championship players |
Alternately, if we do go down, these are very sellable assets that would keep us out of financial trouble. |  | | |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 18:40 - Jul 9 with 1968 views | CopfordBlue |
If we hadn’t gone up, what would you have considered to be a reasonable fee for Davis? I’d have expected us to get £20m plus add ons as a minimum. | |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 20:01 - Jul 9 with 1864 views | farkenhell |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 18:38 - Jul 9 by ScottCandage |
Alternately, if we do go down, these are very sellable assets that would keep us out of financial trouble. |
I was initially concerned that we might get our fingers burned like the last time we were relegated from the Premier League, ie IF we are relegated and IF the bottom should fall out of the market because of outside factors, we might be left with expensive players contracts that we can't afford and have to give away those players for a pittance. However, the difference this time would be the parachute payments, which of course were introduced to try to avoid precisely what happened to us and Leicester 20+ years ago. | | | |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 22:43 - Jul 9 with 1740 views | budgiebasher |
I trust McKenna to know the quality and potential of these players and his ability to improve them. I don’t feel like he is gambling, just taking very calculated risks that I expect, barring serious injury, will pay off big time |  |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 22:48 - Jul 9 with 1719 views | greyhound |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 11:45 - Jul 9 by itfcsuth |
That’s because they are.
Bubble of English football is crazy financially.
Archie Gray, Elliot Anderson both going for £40m, Lewis Hall for £30m. |
Can't wait for us to follow logic and sell marcus harness for 10 million quid now we are premier league.
In all seriousness though his time is done here, what's a player like that worth, are we looking to recoup/make profit on his contract expenditure here? | | | |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 22:57 - Jul 9 with 1681 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 22:43 - Jul 9 by budgiebasher |
I trust McKenna to know the quality and potential of these players and his ability to improve them. I don’t feel like he is gambling, just taking very calculated risks that I expect, barring serious injury, will pay off big time |
Not gambling... just taking calculated risks.
Taking calculated risks is gambling. |  |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 23:31 - Jul 9 with 1623 views | budgiebasher |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 22:57 - Jul 9 by Tangledupin_Blue |
Not gambling... just taking calculated risks.
Taking calculated risks is gambling. |
I disagree. If you're not sure what you're doing, it's a gamble. If you know what you're doing, then it isn't a gamble, it's a calculated risk. | |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 00:18 - Jul 10 with 1546 views | Stewart27 |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 17:31 - Jul 9 by ElephantintheRoom |
It’s not real money - it’s Prem money. Easy come easy go
The startling difference is average championship striker Hirst last year v average championship striker Delap this year. |
Average striker Hirst did ok to contribute to get promoted to the premier league. | | | |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 07:45 - Jul 10 with 1395 views | crouchendyachtclub |
Something I haven’t seen anybody mention. If it’s £40m+ add ons and Philogene is £18m then that means that Greaves is £22m.
With the whole matching option from Villa I don’t see us or Hull allowing a skewed valuation for JP only to lose him to Villa for below the going rate and need to renegotiate Greaves as a result. | | | |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 07:53 - Jul 10 with 1347 views | Dubtractor |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 07:45 - Jul 10 by crouchendyachtclub |
Something I haven’t seen anybody mention. If it’s £40m+ add ons and Philogene is £18m then that means that Greaves is £22m.
With the whole matching option from Villa I don’t see us or Hull allowing a skewed valuation for JP only to lose him to Villa for below the going rate and need to renegotiate Greaves as a result. |
Nah. That matching offer still need Philogene ti want to join Villa, which he won't as will know that he'll just be there to make up the numbers. |  |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 09:32 - Jul 10 with 1243 views | nodge_blue |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 11:22 - Jul 9 by itfcjoe |
You seem to think every PL fee is inflated, it's just the price here |
I agree Joe but there's a part of me that thinks there must be some diminishing returns curve going on here. We paid roughly 1.5 mil for Hirst and Broadhead. But have to pay nearly 20 mil for Philogene.
Shouldn't we be looking for this years Hutchinson / Philogene at a cheaper price? Or picking up someone like Sara for 6m as the budgies did?
We are paying top money for players that haven't been in the PL. |  |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 09:37 - Jul 10 with 1201 views | ITFCBlues |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 09:32 - Jul 10 by nodge_blue |
I agree Joe but there's a part of me that thinks there must be some diminishing returns curve going on here. We paid roughly 1.5 mil for Hirst and Broadhead. But have to pay nearly 20 mil for Philogene.
Shouldn't we be looking for this years Hutchinson / Philogene at a cheaper price? Or picking up someone like Sara for 6m as the budgies did?
We are paying top money for players that haven't been in the PL. |
Pickup this year's Hutchinson, which may not work out and have to wait 3 or 4 months for them to develop by which point were already relegated? |  |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 09:41 - Jul 10 with 1184 views | itfcjoe |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 09:32 - Jul 10 by nodge_blue |
I agree Joe but there's a part of me that thinks there must be some diminishing returns curve going on here. We paid roughly 1.5 mil for Hirst and Broadhead. But have to pay nearly 20 mil for Philogene.
Shouldn't we be looking for this years Hutchinson / Philogene at a cheaper price? Or picking up someone like Sara for 6m as the budgies did?
We are paying top money for players that haven't been in the PL. |
I guess we just need to shop in the market above what we have been - i.e. we now need proven top Championship players as a bottom end, whereas before it was proven top L1 players or players without senior football.
We now can't offer them the development pathway to go from a top L1 player to a top Champ player as the stakes are too high to do so. Realisitcally if we were to sign the likes of Hirst/Broadhead now (as they were) it would be with a view to loaning them to a Champ side to be hopefully be ready for us the season after this one.
It's very expensive business, but how football should work, rather than bigger clubs stockpiling players |  |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 09:53 - Jul 10 with 1117 views | nodge_blue |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 09:41 - Jul 10 by itfcjoe |
I guess we just need to shop in the market above what we have been - i.e. we now need proven top Championship players as a bottom end, whereas before it was proven top L1 players or players without senior football.
We now can't offer them the development pathway to go from a top L1 player to a top Champ player as the stakes are too high to do so. Realisitcally if we were to sign the likes of Hirst/Broadhead now (as they were) it would be with a view to loaning them to a Champ side to be hopefully be ready for us the season after this one.
It's very expensive business, but how football should work, rather than bigger clubs stockpiling players |
And that's the argument I have in my head as well.
But equally what about a Sara at 6 million? That's only in 2022 they signed him. The analogous shop that we are in is pretty big and there just has to be some gems there which we could get for a lot less than the circa 20 mil a player we have been looking at.
We seem to be poaching players from clubs that have a very strong negotiating hand which doesn't help.
I was making a case a few weeks back for Davis being worth 20 mil when others were saying we would get maybe 10ish. My valuation on him now looks under cooked in light of the current fees.
Edit - Tzolis to Bruges for 6mil euros as an example. Young, fast, technical and a goalscorer. Really liked him and imo not far off Philogene. [Post edited 10 Jul 2024 9:59]
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 10:00 - Jul 10 with 1064 views | IPSWICHFANITFC |
I think it's the way we are looking at it which makes it worse - straight away you see £40m for 2 players from Hull or £60m for 3 players that were playing at Hull last season and immediately think we're being taken to the cleaners here.
Had 1 been at Hull, another at Coventry and another at Leeds but they were all the top performers at those clubs, would we be turning our noses up at the fees?
FWIW, McKenna and his team develops players very well and whilst there's a risk involved with price, it's clear that those who have identified these players aren't being put off by the price because they believe in who they are signing and the long term return.
I'm sure most people saw £1m for Leif Davis a big investment at the time in L1, but he's worth £20m now. Risk vs reward sometimes. |  |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 10:00 - Jul 10 with 1061 views | itfcjoe |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 09:53 - Jul 10 by nodge_blue |
And that's the argument I have in my head as well.
But equally what about a Sara at 6 million? That's only in 2022 they signed him. The analogous shop that we are in is pretty big and there just has to be some gems there which we could get for a lot less than the circa 20 mil a player we have been looking at.
We seem to be poaching players from clubs that have a very strong negotiating hand which doesn't help.
I was making a case a few weeks back for Davis being worth 20 mil when others were saying we would get maybe 10ish. My valuation on him now looks under cooked in light of the current fees.
Edit - Tzolis to Bruges for 6mil euros as an example. Young, fast, technical and a goalscorer. Really liked him and imo not far off Philogene. [Post edited 10 Jul 2024 9:59]
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With Sara it took him a year to get up to speed with the Championship before looking excellent this year - we just have to hit the ground running and prob why such an English focus on recruitment. We need to be at 100% of tactical understanding from Day 1 as our main hope of getting enough points across the season.
In future years if we can stabilise in PL then we can look to take riskier signings on I'm sure | |
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| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 10:03 - Jul 10 with 1023 views | itfcsuth |
| £40m for Philogene and Greaves is scandalous by the way on 22:48 - Jul 9 by greyhound |
Can't wait for us to follow logic and sell marcus harness for 10 million quid now we are premier league.
In all seriousness though his time is done here, what's a player like that worth, are we looking to recoup/make profit on his contract expenditure here? |
We'd probably look around £600k-£800k on Harness, think he only has a year to run on his deal.
Likely permanent exits will include Harness, Ladapo, Edmundson, Ndaba & Ladapo, with loans of Baggot, Humphreys & Slicker also heading out.
Problem we may have is a promotion bonus highly likely in contracts may mean it is a bit more difficult for players to leave permanently as they probably won't get the same salary elsewhere. | | | |
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