| JP is a bad move 07:41 - Jan 15 with 13616 views | WolfieAtTheBack |
Said it in the summer, the whole situation does not sit well with me.
Seems like a lot of disruption which we could well do without in a really important transfer window.
Surprised Ashton has carried on with the agent as well, he was a nightmare in the summer, and that has not changed. Plus Villa replacing him like for like is not making me think he is going to solve all our issues.
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| JP is a bad move on 10:09 - Jan 15 with 1514 views | IPSWICHFANITFC |
| JP is a bad move on 09:28 - Jan 15 by pointofblue |
I'm not a fan of this signing, I have to admit.
Firstly because we're having to pay more than we would have done in the summer. Basically both Villa and the player have stitched us up.
Secondly we're paying the same amount for him as Villa have paid for a player who has experience in the Champions League. Yet again, we're buying English players and having to pay excessively for them.
Thirdly he is unproven. To make it worse he has not made an impact for Villa when given a chance. At least Clarke was a relative unknown at this level and may have clicked (see Delap). Philogene has been given a chance and found wanting.
Fourthly, his agent appears to be a pain in the proverbial to deal with.
Maybe a chance of scenery will work. Maybe we'll look back on this and go we ripped Villa off with a £21m deal. I really hope so. But, right now, he does feel more like a Jack Clarke than an Omari Hutchinson. If it goes through, I hope I'm wrong. If it doesn't, I hope I'm right. |
I agree with all your points made, but especially your third point.
That's what doesn't sit right with me. We are paying £20m+ for a player who has had 6 months at this level for a very good team, and has made no impact whatsoever, hence why they're happy to let him go - and Unai Emery is a VERY good coach.
I hope Philogene does succeed, we need him to, but ultimately, I think there's a lot of risk with this deal without much substance to back it up. Shining in the Championship and not backing it up in the Premier League is an alarm bell we're seeing with Jack Clarke. |  |
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| JP is a bad move on 10:17 - Jan 15 with 1439 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| JP is a bad move on 10:05 - Jan 15 by pointofblue |
Are Villa taking any more of a risk than we are by signing from abroad? You could argue wages but - as a few people pointed out when I made a horrific maths error - they've basically made £13m or so on Philogene to cover it. |
The point I'm making is Villa can afford to take that risk (both financially and in terms of they're not getting relegated anytime soon). We need a player to work out immediately, so we need to mitigate the risk as much as possible. Buying English based players is one part of that, even if we pay a premium for the privilege. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| JP is a bad move on 10:18 - Jan 15 with 1442 views | SuffolkPunchFC |
| JP is a bad move on 09:28 - Jan 15 by pointofblue |
I'm not a fan of this signing, I have to admit.
Firstly because we're having to pay more than we would have done in the summer. Basically both Villa and the player have stitched us up.
Secondly we're paying the same amount for him as Villa have paid for a player who has experience in the Champions League. Yet again, we're buying English players and having to pay excessively for them.
Thirdly he is unproven. To make it worse he has not made an impact for Villa when given a chance. At least Clarke was a relative unknown at this level and may have clicked (see Delap). Philogene has been given a chance and found wanting.
Fourthly, his agent appears to be a pain in the proverbial to deal with.
Maybe a chance of scenery will work. Maybe we'll look back on this and go we ripped Villa off with a £21m deal. I really hope so. But, right now, he does feel more like a Jack Clarke than an Omari Hutchinson. If it goes through, I hope I'm wrong. If it doesn't, I hope I'm right. |
So many things to disagree with here :-)
We don't know what commercial terms have been agreed this time, or when he nearly joined last summer. Rumours suggest we may have agreed to a headline figure that is £2-3M more. Not a massive difference. And we don't know what addons, buybacks, sell-ons may be part of either deal. So NOT enough facts to form any sort of informed conclusion. Just pure speculation and drama from so many posters.
Also, have you watch him playing for England? I've been very impressed with what he offers, and he'll fit our playstyle perfectly. He is a very exciting prospect - when/if it's all confirmed. | | | |
| JP is a bad move on 10:21 - Jan 15 with 1413 views | tractorboy1978 |
| JP is a bad move on 10:09 - Jan 15 by IPSWICHFANITFC |
I agree with all your points made, but especially your third point.
That's what doesn't sit right with me. We are paying £20m+ for a player who has had 6 months at this level for a very good team, and has made no impact whatsoever, hence why they're happy to let him go - and Unai Emery is a VERY good coach.
I hope Philogene does succeed, we need him to, but ultimately, I think there's a lot of risk with this deal without much substance to back it up. Shining in the Championship and not backing it up in the Premier League is an alarm bell we're seeing with Jack Clarke. |
More risky than Delap was after struggling to score many goals in the Championship? Lets trust McKenna's judgement. He has wanted Philogene for 18 months.
He barely played at Villa. They are a Champions League team and a couple of levels above us (sadly). | | | |
| JP is a bad move on 10:33 - Jan 15 with 1382 views | itfcjoe |
I’m starting to fall slightly into this camp, a week has now been wasted and effectively it’s likely 2 league games in the midst of an injury crisis when he could have been in and done.
Just feels a few red flags been a bit too stark, and that’s before Villa mates views re how they’ve been disappointed with some aspects of his game and certainly feel they are on the better side of this deal.
But then, McKenna and his agents were very difficult in the summer - so if he comes in and hits ground running then all will be good - but not one I’d be putting my hat on currently to be a success |  |
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| JP is a bad move on 10:38 - Jan 15 with 1332 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| JP is a bad move on 10:33 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
I’m starting to fall slightly into this camp, a week has now been wasted and effectively it’s likely 2 league games in the midst of an injury crisis when he could have been in and done.
Just feels a few red flags been a bit too stark, and that’s before Villa mates views re how they’ve been disappointed with some aspects of his game and certainly feel they are on the better side of this deal.
But then, McKenna and his agents were very difficult in the summer - so if he comes in and hits ground running then all will be good - but not one I’d be putting my hat on currently to be a success |
When KM chases players this doggedly, he's usually right.
The fact we have gone back in for him suggests KM rates him very highly. Thatll do for me over and above some slight delays (the cause of which we dont know), and the views of some ambivalent Villa fans.
I suspect KM will also have asked Delap and Greaves about his character, work ethic etc. |  |
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| JP is a bad move on 10:39 - Jan 15 with 1312 views | itfcjoe |
| JP is a bad move on 10:18 - Jan 15 by SuffolkPunchFC |
So many things to disagree with here :-)
We don't know what commercial terms have been agreed this time, or when he nearly joined last summer. Rumours suggest we may have agreed to a headline figure that is £2-3M more. Not a massive difference. And we don't know what addons, buybacks, sell-ons may be part of either deal. So NOT enough facts to form any sort of informed conclusion. Just pure speculation and drama from so many posters.
Also, have you watch him playing for England? I've been very impressed with what he offers, and he'll fit our playstyle perfectly. He is a very exciting prospect - when/if it's all confirmed. |
The difficulty is financially presumably that most of our signings were from Champ clubs were they were earning £10-25k a week on various length deals, and are now earning £50k a week with relegation drops in them
Whereas JP is already earning the sort of wages are players are, on a 5 year deal from a PL club with no real chance of relegation. So we’ll want him to sign something similar to what he agreed to in the summer; but the reality is now he is on better terms at Villa than what that deal is as the relegation wage cut is much, much more likely and he won’t want to swallow that | |
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| JP is a bad move on 10:43 - Jan 15 with 1265 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| JP is a bad move on 10:39 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
The difficulty is financially presumably that most of our signings were from Champ clubs were they were earning £10-25k a week on various length deals, and are now earning £50k a week with relegation drops in them
Whereas JP is already earning the sort of wages are players are, on a 5 year deal from a PL club with no real chance of relegation. So we’ll want him to sign something similar to what he agreed to in the summer; but the reality is now he is on better terms at Villa than what that deal is as the relegation wage cut is much, much more likely and he won’t want to swallow that |
He might be being signed on a deal similar to what Villa did with Sheff Utd for Cameron Archer.
If we get relegated, they get him back, and we've effectively paid a loan fee (first instalment of transfer fee). | |
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| JP is a bad move on 10:47 - Jan 15 with 1229 views | SuffolkPunchFC |
| JP is a bad move on 10:39 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
The difficulty is financially presumably that most of our signings were from Champ clubs were they were earning £10-25k a week on various length deals, and are now earning £50k a week with relegation drops in them
Whereas JP is already earning the sort of wages are players are, on a 5 year deal from a PL club with no real chance of relegation. So we’ll want him to sign something similar to what he agreed to in the summer; but the reality is now he is on better terms at Villa than what that deal is as the relegation wage cut is much, much more likely and he won’t want to swallow that |
That's assumptions again though.
We were buying him in the summer as a Premier league club, to play in the EPL and would have offered him what we felt was fair EPL terms (not matched his Championship terms).
We have absolutely zero idea what the player compensation terms offered were either in the summer, or now. Ashton is no fool. Maybe he's got a significantly better compensation on offer, maybe not. Nobody outside the club knows. So many of the forum are just speculating to create drama. | | | |
| JP is a bad move on 10:50 - Jan 15 with 1203 views | pointofblue |
| JP is a bad move on 10:47 - Jan 15 by SuffolkPunchFC |
That's assumptions again though.
We were buying him in the summer as a Premier league club, to play in the EPL and would have offered him what we felt was fair EPL terms (not matched his Championship terms).
We have absolutely zero idea what the player compensation terms offered were either in the summer, or now. Ashton is no fool. Maybe he's got a significantly better compensation on offer, maybe not. Nobody outside the club knows. So many of the forum are just speculating to create drama. |
The issue is it's been so strung out. If he just signed it'd be welcome to the club, let's get behind him. The longer it takes, the more time there is for doubts to grow. | |
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| JP is a bad move on 11:00 - Jan 15 with 1132 views | itfcjoe |
| JP is a bad move on 10:47 - Jan 15 by SuffolkPunchFC |
That's assumptions again though.
We were buying him in the summer as a Premier league club, to play in the EPL and would have offered him what we felt was fair EPL terms (not matched his Championship terms).
We have absolutely zero idea what the player compensation terms offered were either in the summer, or now. Ashton is no fool. Maybe he's got a significantly better compensation on offer, maybe not. Nobody outside the club knows. So many of the forum are just speculating to create drama. |
Yep, our contract terms offered were likely similar to what offered at Villa - but he’s now signed that deal and has the security of it
To sign here he can’t compare it to his Hull deal, he has to compare it to his Villa deal - so if we want to have relegation wage drops then it’s something that makes it worse | |
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| JP is a bad move on 11:03 - Jan 15 with 1102 views | portmanking |
| JP is a bad move on 11:00 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
Yep, our contract terms offered were likely similar to what offered at Villa - but he’s now signed that deal and has the security of it
To sign here he can’t compare it to his Hull deal, he has to compare it to his Villa deal - so if we want to have relegation wage drops then it’s something that makes it worse |
But is that not something he's going to have to swallow if he wants to progress his career? He's stagnating at Villa already. A good agent would say to him this would be a case of one step back to take two forward with one of the best managers in world football. | | | |
| JP is a bad move on 11:04 - Jan 15 with 1082 views | leitrimblue |
| JP is a bad move on 09:18 - Jan 15 by MattinLondon |
Why do people feel that the agent was a nightmare? At the start of the season we put in a bid for him which Villa matched. Player went there - don’t blame him, bigger club, European football and little chance of a relegation battle.
Fast forward to now - we put in a bid for him, agent puts out feelers to see if any other clubs are interested - that’s their job.
A lot of players probably didn’t want to come here. I bet that SM and LD weren’t that enthusiastic about joining a then L1 club.
We don’t seem to sign bell ends or players that don’t work hard - if the coaching staff feels that he’s a good fit then they have more than enough credit in the bank for the club to trust them. |
Real shame Les Dennis wasn't more successful at the club. |  | | |
| JP is a bad move on 11:04 - Jan 15 with 1082 views | BlueBlood90 |
| JP is a bad move on 07:53 - Jan 15 by gardins01 |
Living in Birmingham and know a lot of villa fans. There view is that we are mad and paying way to much for a player that hasn't performed so far. |
Remember Leeds fans saying that about Leif?
Remember Blackburn fans saying that about Hirst?
Remember Man City and Hull fans saying that about Delap?
Remember Burnley fans saying that about O'Shea?
Remember Bristol City fans slaughtering Ashton?
Remember Rotherham fans saying Freddie Ladapo was a bad egg?
Just a few reminders that football fans know absolutely nothing.
If Kieran McKenna can justify the fee and really wants him then that's enough for me. |  |
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| JP is a bad move on 11:06 - Jan 15 with 1061 views | algy |
| JP is a bad move on 11:03 - Jan 15 by portmanking |
But is that not something he's going to have to swallow if he wants to progress his career? He's stagnating at Villa already. A good agent would say to him this would be a case of one step back to take two forward with one of the best managers in world football. |
Has he got a good (for him) agent though? | |
| Veni Vidi Participatur. Now we can get back to competing. |
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| JP is a bad move on 11:08 - Jan 15 with 1049 views | only_one_sir_bobby |
| JP is a bad move on 11:00 - Jan 15 by itfcjoe |
Yep, our contract terms offered were likely similar to what offered at Villa - but he’s now signed that deal and has the security of it
To sign here he can’t compare it to his Hull deal, he has to compare it to his Villa deal - so if we want to have relegation wage drops then it’s something that makes it worse |
Has it not been reported that he's agreed personal terms? 4.5 year deal. In which case, surely he's accepted any relegation wage drops? | | | |
| JP is a bad move on 11:10 - Jan 15 with 1014 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| JP is a bad move on 11:08 - Jan 15 by only_one_sir_bobby |
Has it not been reported that he's agreed personal terms? 4.5 year deal. In which case, surely he's accepted any relegation wage drops? |
Thats a good point.
Phils article says he's "agreed a 4.5 year deal", which suggests personal terms arent the issue. | |
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| JP is a bad move on 11:13 - Jan 15 with 994 views | warky_1970 |
How do you know the agent was/is a nightmare ?
All of this anti agent stuff stems from people’s opinions and frustrations at us being gazumped via a technicality last summer.
The agent is doing his job which is to find his client the best deal possible. It’s not the agents job to make supporters feel all fluffy and comfy inside. He also needs to make a living for himself and to prove himself as a shrewd negotiator and businessman that gets the best for his clients.
What will he will be. If we get him then let’s hope it works out. If we don’t, let’s hope we get someone else/better. |  | | |
| JP is a bad move on 11:13 - Jan 15 with 981 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| JP is a bad move on 10:50 - Jan 15 by pointofblue |
The issue is it's been so strung out. If he just signed it'd be welcome to the club, let's get behind him. The longer it takes, the more time there is for doubts to grow. |
...in the minds of impatient people. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| JP is a bad move on 11:15 - Jan 15 with 959 views | warky_1970 |
| JP is a bad move on 11:13 - Jan 15 by The_Flashing_Smile |
...in the minds of impatient people. |
That’s a very polite way of saying “idiots” | | | |
| JP is a bad move on 11:16 - Jan 15 with 952 views | BlibbiBlob1976 |
| JP is a bad move on 08:07 - Jan 15 by Metal_Hacker |
For me I’d say these Villa “fans” are slightly more expectant nowadays for one and secondly , how much have they really seen of him those season to make a proper judgement
If KMcK and our team have been tracking this bloke for quite a while it’s more than good enough for me and Ipswich Town
We are shopping in a slightly different market compared to Champion’s League teams and the majority of the Premier League. Apart from AAH all the other players we’ve tracked / purchased over the last couple of seasons have exceeded my expectations so please lets not get all entitled |
And Muric and Clark!! | | | |
| JP is a bad move on 11:17 - Jan 15 with 952 views | SuffolkPunchFC |
| JP is a bad move on 11:08 - Jan 15 by only_one_sir_bobby |
Has it not been reported that he's agreed personal terms? 4.5 year deal. In which case, surely he's accepted any relegation wage drops? |
Yup, absolutely 100%.
There's just too much if-then-buts being posted by some imo. Much of this thread is interspersed with people saying we're paying too much for a player that's no good according to fans as other clubs. This is just idiocy, as we don't know the terms in detail, and as to him being good enough (or not) - I trust KmK and what I've seen of him in an England shirt. | | | |
| JP is a bad move on 11:18 - Jan 15 with 937 views | SuffolkPunchFC |
| JP is a bad move on 11:15 - Jan 15 by warky_1970 |
That’s a very polite way of saying “idiots” |
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| JP is a bad move on 11:20 - Jan 15 with 913 views | BseaBlue |
| JP is a bad move on 11:13 - Jan 15 by The_Flashing_Smile |
...in the minds of impatient people. |
I think there are genuine concerns around the fee inflating etc and given that he hasn't done anything at Villa, so understandable people are not sure about it as opposed to a lack of patience.
However, the fact that KM has chased him like we've done with others is enough for me to think we need to see this out and then watch him shine.
One thing to consider is that he was a small fish at Villa whereas if he comes here and gets off to a good start, it won't take long until the fans are behind him. I'm sure he has watched the rise of Delap with envy! |  | | |
| JP is a bad move on 11:20 - Jan 15 with 921 views | Guthrum |
I suspect the "disruption" is more among the fanbase than the club or the team - or even the recruitment department.
Is there any evidence that a lot of time and energy is being expended upon this, as opposed to it just taking a long time? That Ashton or whoever is spending hours in meetings when they could have been doing something else?
That we've abandoned all other avenues and signings until Philogene is over the line?
The way this is regarded as a "situation" has a lot more to do with impatience and information-void anxiety among supporters than any real danger to the club. |  |
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