| Junior Doctors 09:08 - Jul 25 with 9917 views | Chris_ITFC |
Yeah, I want a 30% pay rise too mate. |  |
| |  |
| Junior Doctors on 10:38 - Jul 26 with 1283 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Junior Doctors on 10:32 - Jul 26 by Ryorry |
And in the case of the NHS, not having an inefficient, out of date computer system that can’t even keep people’s names and addresses up to date 5 years after they’ve moved house (correct at GP surgery but not at local hospital they’re referred to) resulting in appointment letters arriving the day after appointments etc. (missed appointments are expensive, we are told).
Not to mention other expensive failures to communicate, such as not informing patients they’ll have to stay overnight in hospital after some day procedures - but could have gone home if they’d been told to organise a friend or relative to stay that night with them. How many beds are quite unnecessarily blocked up that way, I wonder.
Not just my experience but that of others I’ve heard on phone-ins such as R5l. [Post edited 26 Jul 10:35]
|
Unfortunately public sector IT is absolutely laughable. It is dressed up as positive efficienct reform, but in reality is often very poorly conceived and implemented, at huge cost, in house or by bespoke teams, when it really ought to be put out to large providers who have teh resources expertise and existing products to build on.
Basically they say they are investing X in the new IT, which will reduce staff and wastage. And then the IT is poor and the additional work gets pushed onto people already strecthed and fed up to fill the gap between what the IT was claimed to do and what it actually does, because the "efficiencies" are assumed at the top management tier and the staff reductions are in place regardless. |  | | |
| Junior Doctors on 10:40 - Jul 26 with 1266 views | Churchman |
| Junior Doctors on 09:33 - Jul 26 by redrickstuhaart |
There is undoubtedly waste and bureaucracy built into many public sector setups.
But the biggest inefficiences are created by undervaluing the people, and under resourcing things, such that basic tasks take more effort and time than is necessary, have to be corrected, re-done etc etc. |
Yes, there is waste and bureaucracy built into many public sector set ups. There is also poor management, lack of expertise in certain areas and a lack of knowledge of the resources it has at its disposal along with limited or no training.
But this is a huge generalisation. The public sector huge, varied in what it does in a way people who’ve not seen it can ever comprehend. CS has many excellent and dedicated people as qualified and in some cases more expert than those in the private sector. Some of them work vocationally and some in extreme danger and are paid a relative pittance for their troubles.
The repeated line of waste and inefficiency is very much a political line. Francis Maude told the Cabinet Office staff to their faces they were ‘dead wood’ and that was the message pumped out thereafter. The current govt use the line ‘waste and inefficiency’ as an excuse for more cuts.
They couldn’t define what waste or where any more than people on here can, but who cares. Anecdotal will fit the narrative. Of course it exists, just as it does in all organisations.
The biggest waste I saw was, in general, caused by government being ripped off by the private sector. They filled their boots and given the government’s inability to write tighter contracts, private companies rightly took the taxpayer to the cleaners - they’re there to maximise profit for shareholders. I’m generalising so three examples. Fujitsu who supplied HMRCs IT - all of it. They must have made a killing. Yours and my taxes, straight into shareholder pockets.
Secondly, an offshore company that paid no U.K. tax to my knowledge who were gifted government buildings on the basis they’d look after the maintenance and associated services. You can guess the rest and if not it’s on public record.
Lastly, the ‘expertise’ brought in from people like CapGem and PwC to bolster armageddon Brexit work. Two elements - a high percentage of fully qualified CS project people had been disposed of as part of austerity. Useless mouths, waste. Dead wood. Get rid. Shame they had to replace them with private sector people at many times the cost of CS people. £1800 a day was the bare minimum charge for a contractor, even if they were just taking minutes.
This ties in with your second paragraph. People are undervalued and part of the reason for this is a complete lack of understanding and investment in management skills as well as the staff themselves.
Having worked for both, I always felt that the public sector should bring in private sector people and visa versa, whether for experience or knowledge swap. A partnership. |  | | |
| Junior Doctors on 10:47 - Jul 26 with 1242 views | Ryorry |
| Junior Doctors on 10:35 - Jul 26 by StokieBlue |
This isn't true, what you mean is that lots of people have views to the left of you which I suspect, given your views, isn't unusual for a lot of the country.
You'd see more things you agreed with if those people hadn't been banned for posting offensive things.
SB |
In the interests of balance, several “lefties” have been banned too (and I don’t mean Phil’s ‘balance’ before anyone starts!). |  |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 12:06 - Jul 26 with 1155 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Junior Doctors on 10:29 - Jul 26 by Benters |
Oh come of it we all know this is a Labour hardcore site.
I was banned because I had a row with Spruce. |
If you think Labour are hard left that says it all.
Mind you for someone who advocated machine gunning refugees coming through the channel tunnel I guess in relative terms everyone is hard left.
Your lack of self awareness and unbridled ignorance is remarkable |  | | |
| Junior Doctors on 12:08 - Jul 26 with 1150 views | Herbivore |
| Junior Doctors on 10:29 - Jul 26 by Benters |
Oh come of it we all know this is a Labour hardcore site.
I was banned because I had a row with Spruce. |
Labour aren't even left of centre, let alone hard left. And lots of us didn't vote Labour. There's a broad mix of people on here, you just seem to struggle with quite a lot of people not agreeing with your views which, on some issues, could be described as pretty far right. |  |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 12:18 - Jul 26 with 1109 views | BlueBadger |
| Junior Doctors on 07:25 - Jul 26 by DJR |
Here is a recent Full Fact article on the pay of resident doctors for anyone who might be interested.
https://fullfact.org/health/resident-doctors-pay-how-much-do-they-earn-and-what-
It includes the following.
"This shows that in practice, resident doctors typically earn roughly a third more than their basic salary from other sources. Most of the extra pay comes from working extra hours and working unsocial hours, but it also includes geographic differences and other things."
So any doctor you see working at night or at weekends will be earning extra pay, not that there are many doctors in a hospital at weekends. [Post edited 26 Jul 7:27]
|
Although, thanks to the contract imposed by Jeremy Rhyming-Slang, they won't be earning as much in unsocial hours payments as they should be. |  |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 12:32 - Jul 26 with 1068 views | OldFart71 |
If you want fairness we need something totally different from the Tories or Labour.
The Tories oversee huge increases in bosses pay. Privatised Companies like water pay more to bosses and shareholders and disregard the job they should be doing and that's providing clean drinkable water and not polluting rivers and seas.
Alternatively you have Labour paid for by their Union masters and as soon as they get in every man and his dog are on strike for more pay, which as with the doctors was supressed by the Tories.
The trouble is the Country doesn't have the money to continue on this path of funding huge pay increases, funding HS2, Sizewell C, Millibands mad rush to Net Zero, bringing down NHS waiting lists and servicing debt costing 17 billion a month. | | | |
| Junior Doctors on 12:35 - Jul 26 with 1074 views | Tonytown |
| Junior Doctors on 10:29 - Jul 26 by Benters |
Oh come of it we all know this is a Labour hardcore site.
I was banned because I had a row with Spruce. |
You’re a right wing racist which is why people disagree with you.
To describe most people’s views as hard left on here is stupidity of the first order. [Post edited 26 Jul 13:18]
| | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Junior Doctors on 12:45 - Jul 26 with 1043 views | Herbivore |
| Junior Doctors on 12:32 - Jul 26 by OldFart71 |
If you want fairness we need something totally different from the Tories or Labour.
The Tories oversee huge increases in bosses pay. Privatised Companies like water pay more to bosses and shareholders and disregard the job they should be doing and that's providing clean drinkable water and not polluting rivers and seas.
Alternatively you have Labour paid for by their Union masters and as soon as they get in every man and his dog are on strike for more pay, which as with the doctors was supressed by the Tories.
The trouble is the Country doesn't have the money to continue on this path of funding huge pay increases, funding HS2, Sizewell C, Millibands mad rush to Net Zero, bringing down NHS waiting lists and servicing debt costing 17 billion a month. |
Did you miss the constant strike action from a range of sectors under the Tories? I'm guessing so given your characterisation here. | |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 12:52 - Jul 26 with 1018 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Junior Doctors on 09:17 - Jul 26 by LegendofthePhoenix |
There's a lot of talk about the NHS overpaying for various supplies and services. Some truth in it, but mostly as a result of a lack of competition in the market place, so suppliers who have managed to create a monopoly, or duoply in some instances, can rip off. But over the past couple of decades, the NHS has got much better and more rigorous, at procurement.
At a national level, NICE are doing a great job at driving down the cost of phaarmaceuticals.
Probably the worst area for vfm is finding contractors for building works - I'm constantly shocked at how expensive it is to refurbish treatment rooms etc. I suppose with local building contractors, the money remains in the UK, but the costs are so high because of the very high standards that have to be met. For example, if a treatment room is going t have anything more than a lick of paint, the entire room has to be brought up to current HBN (Health Building Note) standards - which means the air handling has to meet strict requirements, often meaning a new AHU has to be installed on the roof, at a cost of £200k - £400k. All NHS equipment has to meet strict CE marks etc. So whilst you can buy a blood pressure monitor off amazon for £40, to buy one that meets all the standards required for professional use in a hospital (including networking etc.) may cost £1200 - £1500. That isn't inefficiency. It's the cost of doing things properly. [Post edited 27 Jul 6:18]
|
I saw similar in the university sector with contractors and it was always around estates. As soon as contractors got on the approved suppliers list it’s almost a licence to print money. All the facilities management contractors would be driving around in new vans. You knew when a new contract had been leased as there were 20 brand spanking new vans around, increasingly electric too so not cheap (even if on leases). Meanwhile the buildings were in a pretty poor state. |  |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 12:54 - Jul 26 with 1016 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Junior Doctors on 10:29 - Jul 26 by Benters |
Oh come of it we all know this is a Labour hardcore site.
I was banned because I had a row with Spruce. |
You’re going to struggle to find many people on here who are hardcore Labour supporters! Most of the posts about them are slagging them off. | |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 14:03 - Jul 26 with 947 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Junior Doctors on 12:32 - Jul 26 by OldFart71 |
If you want fairness we need something totally different from the Tories or Labour.
The Tories oversee huge increases in bosses pay. Privatised Companies like water pay more to bosses and shareholders and disregard the job they should be doing and that's providing clean drinkable water and not polluting rivers and seas.
Alternatively you have Labour paid for by their Union masters and as soon as they get in every man and his dog are on strike for more pay, which as with the doctors was supressed by the Tories.
The trouble is the Country doesn't have the money to continue on this path of funding huge pay increases, funding HS2, Sizewell C, Millibands mad rush to Net Zero, bringing down NHS waiting lists and servicing debt costing 17 billion a month. |
The government can literally ask for money to be created. Indeed, that’s largely what they do for government spending. We’ve also lost out on about £40bn per year in tax revenue because people were daft enough to believe Brexiteer’s lies. So even with Reeves’ unnecessary fiscal rules there is a route back to creating more money by re-joining the EU and getting rid of the trade barriers with our largest nearby trading block. Or they can just create it. | |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 14:03 - Jul 26 with 944 views | positivity |
| Junior Doctors on 12:52 - Jul 26 by Swansea_Blue |
I saw similar in the university sector with contractors and it was always around estates. As soon as contractors got on the approved suppliers list it’s almost a licence to print money. All the facilities management contractors would be driving around in new vans. You knew when a new contract had been leased as there were 20 brand spanking new vans around, increasingly electric too so not cheap (even if on leases). Meanwhile the buildings were in a pretty poor state. |
a more avoidable problem is the underfunding of training doctors and nurses and the subsequent underpayment.
this leads to not enough people available and poor retention of those who have gone through the system, thus having to waste money on agencies where the cost is greater and goes out of the nhs.
ridiculous short-sighted policies which have to be overcome for the common good of the country | |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 15:49 - Jul 26 with 868 views | Ryorry |
| Junior Doctors on 14:03 - Jul 26 by positivity |
a more avoidable problem is the underfunding of training doctors and nurses and the subsequent underpayment.
this leads to not enough people available and poor retention of those who have gone through the system, thus having to waste money on agencies where the cost is greater and goes out of the nhs.
ridiculous short-sighted policies which have to be overcome for the common good of the country |
It's absolutely tragic - I was saying exactly this to an ex-nurse friend - in the 1980s :( | |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 21:07 - Jul 26 with 771 views | DJR |
| Junior Doctors on 08:02 - Jul 26 by LegendofthePhoenix |
You sound like a real expert on the NHS. So would you care to elaborate on where there "there is so much waste you could save billions?
Your post is the sort of uninformed right wing BS trotted out by rags like the Mail and the Express.
I work in the NHS, and have done for over 30 years (as well as working in the private sector). And I'm proud of how efficient we are - way, way more so than the private sector. The actual fact is that the NHS is often forced into spending on things that it shouldn't have to if it was better funded. Buildings are falling apart, but there's no money to replace them, so millions get spent on patching things up. That isn't inefficiency in the NHS, that's the lack of cash in government. Same with old broken equipment.
The whole argument about pay rises and "where is the magic money tree" points to an even bigger question. Where has all the money gone?
The answer is simple. There are a relatively small number of people who are mega rich, incomes of millions each year. Society is so distorted now, and the narrative of the right is to blame it on anyone but the mega rich. Blame it on the boats. Blame it on the inefficient public sector. Blame it on the unemployed.
A society where some can't afford food or heating in the cold, whilst other think its ok to have super yachts and multiple mansions is a messed up society. There's enough money, in the system, its just in the wrong places and the mega rich don't pay their taxes. |
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/reports/nhs-compare-health-car
A comparison with other health care systems by the Kings Fund in 2023 found amongst other things.
The UK has below-average health spending per person compared to other
countries.
The UK health system performs relatively well on some measures of efficiency,
such as the rate at which cheaper generic medicines are prescribed. The UK
also spends a relatively low share of its health budget on administration.
The UK lags behind other countries in its capital investment, and has
substantially fewer key physical resources than many of its peers, including
computerised tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI)
scanners and hospital beds.
The UK has strikingly low levels of key clinical staff, including doctors and
nurses, and is heavily reliant on foreign-trained staff. Remuneration for
some clinical groups appears to be less competitive in the UK than in
peer countries.
At the end of the day you get what you pay for and, as the graph on the following link shows, the real damage to the NHS was in the 14 years of Coalition and Tory governments (especially the Coalition) when real term increases in NHS funding (at the time of an increasing and ageing population) were well below those under previous governments.
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/data-and-charts/nhs-budget-nut
David Cameron and Nick Clegg have a lot to answer for. [Post edited 26 Jul 21:16]
|  | | |
| Junior Doctors on 06:33 - Jul 27 with 635 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
| Junior Doctors on 10:32 - Jul 26 by Ryorry |
And in the case of the NHS, not having an inefficient, out of date computer system that can’t even keep people’s names and addresses up to date 5 years after they’ve moved house (correct at GP surgery but not at local hospital they’re referred to) resulting in appointment letters arriving the day after appointments etc. (missed appointments are expensive, we are told).
Not to mention other expensive failures to communicate, such as not informing patients they’ll have to stay overnight in hospital after some day procedures - but could have gone home if they’d been told to organise a friend or relative to stay that night with them. How many beds are quite unnecessarily blocked up that way, I wonder.
Not just my experience but that of others I’ve heard on phone-ins such as R5l. [Post edited 26 Jul 10:35]
|
Only last week I was involved in a strategy discussion about how to try and improve communication with patients. Its very easy for people to criticise the NHS, and there are most certainly instances where a letter is sent out late. What we'd love is that everyone uses the NHS App. But of course that excludes people who don't have smartphones. Some people don't inform the NHS that they have moved house. Some don't even have a basic mobile to receive text messages. Sometimes the Royal Mail take weeks to deliver a letter. What would be great is if the referrer could say on the referral what the preferred method of communication is. Referred can be GPs, but also can be opticians, community nurses, private practices etc., so a whole cohort of people some of whom are not in the NHS. And that's without taking into account patients who my have Learning Disabilities or not be able to read English.
#Stop the yachts |  |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 09:24 - Jul 27 with 578 views | Benters |
| Junior Doctors on 06:33 - Jul 27 by LegendofthePhoenix |
Only last week I was involved in a strategy discussion about how to try and improve communication with patients. Its very easy for people to criticise the NHS, and there are most certainly instances where a letter is sent out late. What we'd love is that everyone uses the NHS App. But of course that excludes people who don't have smartphones. Some people don't inform the NHS that they have moved house. Some don't even have a basic mobile to receive text messages. Sometimes the Royal Mail take weeks to deliver a letter. What would be great is if the referrer could say on the referral what the preferred method of communication is. Referred can be GPs, but also can be opticians, community nurses, private practices etc., so a whole cohort of people some of whom are not in the NHS. And that's without taking into account patients who my have Learning Disabilities or not be able to read English.
#Stop the yachts |
Speaking from experience I have nothing but praise for people who work for the NHS.
I guess as people get older they need help a bit more,then being old doesn’t help because half the time they either can’t hear or see properly.Speaking from experience again there. |  |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 18:54 - Jul 27 with 447 views | Chris_ITFC |
Not an endorsement. Just want a 10 pager.  | |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 11:34 - Jul 28 with 302 views | Vic |
| Junior Doctors on 01:15 - Jul 26 by vinceg |
Genuine question from someone in the private sector. Do junior doctors get any type of bonus in addition, or is their remuneration entirely salary based?
Only asking as I'm trying to do the comparitive maths on my remuneration before I take sides. My increments over the last 15 years or so have involved 0% payrises for probably half of them, but have had smallish bonuses pretty much every year in lieu (or in addition where I did get a raise). |
Dr's (or nurses) don't get bonuses, neither do they get overtime (they work 12 hr shifts, but often they run longer). In general they will both get considerably more than their basic salary because they get paid more for 'unsociable shifts' (nights and weekends) which they are required to do as part of their contract. Resident Dr's are also paid when they are 'on call' - not necessarily in the hospital, but can be called in at any time.
A 30% increase is ridiculous, but it does need to be born in mind that over the last 15 years their 'payment in kind' benefits have been reduced by £1000's a year, generally equating to an overall reduction of value in what they take home. Add to that that their med school training is a minimum of 5 years, which leaves them with a whopping student loan, which they cannot start to pay back for years because pay as F1 & F2 is so low. My resident Dr son has been in training for 10 years and only now is his base salary ticking over £50k! And for that he sometimes running the A&E department or taking major responsibility in the ITU dept of his hospital. Works a minimum of 55 hours a week, comes home to more study, reports and papers to write! Total weekly work = 70hrs.
Hands up to be a resident Dr anyone!! |  |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 11:53 - Jul 28 with 257 views | Vic |
| Junior Doctors on 10:40 - Jul 26 by Churchman |
Yes, there is waste and bureaucracy built into many public sector set ups. There is also poor management, lack of expertise in certain areas and a lack of knowledge of the resources it has at its disposal along with limited or no training.
But this is a huge generalisation. The public sector huge, varied in what it does in a way people who’ve not seen it can ever comprehend. CS has many excellent and dedicated people as qualified and in some cases more expert than those in the private sector. Some of them work vocationally and some in extreme danger and are paid a relative pittance for their troubles.
The repeated line of waste and inefficiency is very much a political line. Francis Maude told the Cabinet Office staff to their faces they were ‘dead wood’ and that was the message pumped out thereafter. The current govt use the line ‘waste and inefficiency’ as an excuse for more cuts.
They couldn’t define what waste or where any more than people on here can, but who cares. Anecdotal will fit the narrative. Of course it exists, just as it does in all organisations.
The biggest waste I saw was, in general, caused by government being ripped off by the private sector. They filled their boots and given the government’s inability to write tighter contracts, private companies rightly took the taxpayer to the cleaners - they’re there to maximise profit for shareholders. I’m generalising so three examples. Fujitsu who supplied HMRCs IT - all of it. They must have made a killing. Yours and my taxes, straight into shareholder pockets.
Secondly, an offshore company that paid no U.K. tax to my knowledge who were gifted government buildings on the basis they’d look after the maintenance and associated services. You can guess the rest and if not it’s on public record.
Lastly, the ‘expertise’ brought in from people like CapGem and PwC to bolster armageddon Brexit work. Two elements - a high percentage of fully qualified CS project people had been disposed of as part of austerity. Useless mouths, waste. Dead wood. Get rid. Shame they had to replace them with private sector people at many times the cost of CS people. £1800 a day was the bare minimum charge for a contractor, even if they were just taking minutes.
This ties in with your second paragraph. People are undervalued and part of the reason for this is a complete lack of understanding and investment in management skills as well as the staff themselves.
Having worked for both, I always felt that the public sector should bring in private sector people and visa versa, whether for experience or knowledge swap. A partnership. |
Got to disagree with you on this one Churchy!
Mrs Vic worked in the private sector in legal work for many years. She moved to work in the NHS and could not believe the difference in attitude to efficiency. She was appalled by the wastage she saw and when she tried to suggest cost saving initiatives she was faced with real hostility by her manager, who was an under qualified wannabe who many considered a bully. End result - she left after 2 years.
MissVic (a sister on a ward) recently took a 6 month secondment in a newly created dept to increase efficiency and patient through put in her hospital. It was a nightmare for her - she described her frustration to me (often in tears) that there seemed so little accountability for those who clearly deliberately blocked progress.
VicJr is a resident dr (7 yrs experience) and he is resigned to working in a system that he described as totally and unfixably broken. He and Miss Vic agree that it really isn't a matter of throwing more money at the system. | |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 15:16 - Jul 28 with 177 views | Ryorry |
| Junior Doctors on 12:18 - Jul 26 by BlueBadger |
Although, thanks to the contract imposed by Jeremy Rhyming-Slang, they won't be earning as much in unsocial hours payments as they should be. |
Don’t know if they have this kind of shift at your place, but my NHS A&E nurse neighbour has just been assigned one starting at 2pm and finishing at 2am 
Seems beyond ridiculous. | |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 17:22 - Jul 28 with 74 views | Vic |
| Junior Doctors on 16:42 - Jul 28 by Benters |
I’m pretty sure a nurse on the ward I was on did three 12 hour shifts a week and had four days off.
Like 7 to 7.
I might have it wrong though. [Post edited 28 Jul 16:43]
|
You’re not wrong. MissVic is a sister and always has to work 12hr shifts, starting at 7 in the morning. She’s usually in early and frequently works an extra hour at the end. She tells me that it’s not unusual for hr not to have had time to even go to the loo by 4 in the afternoon! I’m in awe of what she puts up with - verbal and physical ab from dement patients, getting showered in excrement. Concerned patients, breaking news of death of bad test results, etc, etc. I couldn’t do it! | |
| |
| Junior Doctors on 18:05 - Jul 28 with 45 views | DropCliffsNotBombs |
| Junior Doctors on 16:42 - Jul 28 by Benters |
I’m pretty sure a nurse on the ward I was on did three 12 hour shifts a week and had four days off.
Like 7 to 7.
I might have it wrong though. [Post edited 28 Jul 16:43]
|
Not going to be an exact science, but believe they rotate 3 and 4 shifts weekly, either 12 hours (night) or 13 hours (day). My wife at Addenbrookes did that rotation when she was a band 5-6. |  | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
