| Junior Doctors 09:08 - Jul 25 with 7976 views | Chris_ITFC |
Yeah, I want a 30% pay rise too mate. |  |
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| Junior Doctors on 12:44 - Jul 25 with 871 views | flykickingbybgunn |
| Junior Doctors on 09:19 - Jul 25 by Herbivore |
Have you suffered a real terms pay cut of close to that over the last 15 years? If you have then do what the junior doctors are doing and join a union, vote in favour of strike action over pay, and put pressure on your employer to redress the real terms pay cuts you've had to tolerate alongside a sustained period of challenging working conditions too. |
I was with Nalgo and then Unison for 35 years. Then my employer metaphorically sh@t all over me. I went to my union rep and he shrugged his shoulders and said he would do nothing. So it cost me over £1000.
The only way to recoop the loss was to leave the union and make savings that way. |  | | |
| Junior Doctors on 12:44 - Jul 25 with 870 views | CoachRob |
| Junior Doctors on 12:01 - Jul 25 by giant_stow |
"This is austerity logic, and based on a profound misunderstanding of how government finances work."
Any chance of fleshing that out please? |
I thought you were semi-literate in economics, no?
You can read the academic work if you're genuinely interested in the argument, but as far I can tell you just subscribe to the bonkers nonsense that I have to deal with on climate change.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/sites/bartlett/files/the_self-financing_state_an_ |  | | |
| Junior Doctors on 12:48 - Jul 25 with 857 views | giant_stow |
You may be doing me too much justice with "semi-literate" - I'd say "vaguely interested now, after completely failing to understand economics at Uni 30 years ago".
Thanks for the link - I will go and have a read in a moment, but could you put this argument (which I've seen you make too) into lay terms if poss please? It seems like you and thebooks think that there's no real limit to govt spending? Is that unfair?
I'm glad your here on this thread, but please be gentle!
Edit: i've started reading the link, but its a challenging read, which willt ake me time!) [Post edited 25 Jul 13:14]
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| Junior Doctors on 13:26 - Jul 25 with 795 views | Vic |
Do you know what resident (Junior) Dr's actually do & what their actual pay is?
My son is a resident Dr, has been training for 12 yrs and still has another 2 to go before he qualifies as a consultant. He left Med school with a student debt of over £90k and despite paying £300 a month the total has actually grown.
He works in Emergency Medicine and every day people's life hands on his decisions. He is contracted to work 45 hours a week but never actually does less than 55.
There is absolutely nothing junior about him and yet his base pay, at this point is less than my daughter who is a band 7 nurse.
Add to this, in training he has to move hospital every 6 months and has to find and pay his own accommodation. 10 years ago hospitals provided accommodation for Dr's in training - that has stopped, effectively costing them over £10k a year because there was no pay change to make up for what they were no longer getting in accommodation. Oh, and he has to pay for his medical and professional registration and all his exams - totalling several thousands every year.
But for that he has not ever, and will never strike.
Edit: I will add that he thinks the BMA have completely misread the room and doesn't support the strike. And both he and my daughter think the NHS is completely broken. There's a lot more I can say, but it's not good for my blood pressure! [Post edited 25 Jul 13:39]
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| Junior Doctors on 13:31 - Jul 25 with 763 views | jaykay |
| Junior Doctors on 10:24 - Jul 25 by Chris_ITFC |
Like 99.9% of the population, if I asked for a 30% pay rise, I’d be politely told to jog on and get back to work.
If I thought someone else would be mad enough to give me higher pay and conditions elsewhere, I’d get my P45.
Which magic money tree is funding a 30% increase in NHS salaries, by the way? |
the same one what a few tory mates made covid |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Junior Doctors on 13:31 - Jul 25 with 765 views | jayessess |
| Junior Doctors on 11:52 - Jul 25 by pointofblue |
Though isn't the argument that everyone in the pay sector has suffered in this way? Nurses, firefighters, police officers, social workers... Actually everyone in the private sector as well but they don't "serve" the country in the same manner.
The general argument is a robust one. The amount requested and timing of this, so soon after an inflation busting rise, isn't. What it should do, as some have said, is instigate a further discussion on taxation, but time is needed to implement it. [Post edited 25 Jul 12:04]
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The BMA's longstanding position is just recovering for their members the same real terms income they had in 2010.
It's not an unreasonable position, is it? Across the rest of the economy real wages have stagnated since then but they haven't actually declined. The average UK employee is not actually 30% poorer than their equivalent 15 years ago. And no one in 2010 was going around making the political argument that hospital doctors were massively overpaid and needed a drastic and permanent decline in their standard of living.
If the timing is off, well, that's not actually the BMA's concern (which is mobilising their members around a a campaign with a consistent message and aim). [Post edited 25 Jul 13:34]
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| Junior Doctors on 13:32 - Jul 25 with 765 views | Herbivore |
| Junior Doctors on 10:41 - Jul 25 by Chris_ITFC |
The whole country got screwed over by the Tories. Inflation, mortgages, taxes…
We’re all worse off. We aren’t getting 30% pay rises (and nor are they), because the country can’t afford it (unless you wish to explain otherwise).
It wouldn’t matter if my employer recognised unions or not (they don’t). But the whole country striking from a completely ludicrous negotiating position sounds a great idea. |
We're not all worse off. Since 2010 real wages in the private sector have gone up, whereas wages in the public sector have gone down: https://www.ft.com/content/ca81509b-e929-487f-8975-49d75dc4f78d
If you're going to express strong views on the rights and wrongs of industrial action, you could at least educate yourself on what those who are striking have experienced over the last 15 years. |  |
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| Junior Doctors on 13:37 - Jul 25 with 735 views | Herbivore |
| Junior Doctors on 11:35 - Jul 25 by tetchris |
Everyone is entitled to strike for better pay. One thing I’m against is them claiming overtime for the time they have to spend catching up because they have been on strike. Bit of a p*ss take. If you strike you shouldn’t get paid or be able to claim overtime in those circumstances. |
You don't get paid when you're on strike. You can't then expect people to make up for the work missed due to strike action for free. | |
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| Junior Doctors on 13:58 - Jul 25 with 683 views | Herbivore |
| Junior Doctors on 12:44 - Jul 25 by flykickingbybgunn |
I was with Nalgo and then Unison for 35 years. Then my employer metaphorically sh@t all over me. I went to my union rep and he shrugged his shoulders and said he would do nothing. So it cost me over £1000.
The only way to recoop the loss was to leave the union and make savings that way. |
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience, sounds like your rep was useless. I've only ever had good experiences with my union. | |
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| Junior Doctors on 14:14 - Jul 25 with 649 views | thebooks |
| Junior Doctors on 12:48 - Jul 25 by giant_stow |
You may be doing me too much justice with "semi-literate" - I'd say "vaguely interested now, after completely failing to understand economics at Uni 30 years ago".
Thanks for the link - I will go and have a read in a moment, but could you put this argument (which I've seen you make too) into lay terms if poss please? It seems like you and thebooks think that there's no real limit to govt spending? Is that unfair?
I'm glad your here on this thread, but please be gentle!
Edit: i've started reading the link, but its a challenging read, which willt ake me time!) [Post edited 25 Jul 13:14]
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Not to speak for Coach Rob, but MMT sort of argues that. Governments create money — it doesn’t represent an amount of gold in the bank of England or anything like that.
I don’t really have a fully formed opinion on it as my economics knowledge is limited, but I do think that the household/don’t get into debt analogy and a simple tax in/spending out model is self-evidently not true, and only serves as an argument for never spending anything. Lab is following idiotic Tory debt ratio targets purely because it wants to seem “sensible”.
Sometimes a lot of debt might be appropriate, if you’re needing to rebuild, for example.
“Anything we can actually do we can afford” is a far better way to look at things. Of course, our capacity to do things has been limited by austerity. |  | | |
| Junior Doctors on 14:29 - Jul 25 with 621 views | Churchman |
| Junior Doctors on 13:58 - Jul 25 by Herbivore |
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience, sounds like your rep was useless. I've only ever had good experiences with my union. |
Same here. Yes, there was stuff that my Union supported that I didn’t always agree with and a chum of mine was not represented as he should have been in a bullying claim by ironically another friend.
But underpinning the detail is that Unions are a force for good. Collective action (no, I never broke a strike and never would) is sometimes the only way to lever employers into doing what is right. The media for decades has been hostile to them and people like a certain friends of mine still believe the cobblers spouted by Thatcher and the hag’s predecessors. This includes blaming Britain’s post war failure on the TUs. Utter nonsense.
It does not take much to learn how and why Unions came about and from that to understand what happens without them. I get that they don’t apply to self employed or small businesses, but that is no reason for them not to exist at all. [Post edited 25 Jul 14:30]
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| Junior Doctors on 14:40 - Jul 25 with 593 views | itfcjoe |
| Junior Doctors on 09:39 - Jul 25 by Cheltenham_Blue |
Yep, husband of an NHS Clinical Nurse Specialist here. The whole NHS have seen pay degradation over the last 20 years. Not just resident doctors, therefore should they get the figure they are asking for its a matter of time until we see like for like strikes from nurses, radiographers, porters etc etc etc.
I'm a huge supporter of resident doctors, but I can't help but feel the BMA has misjudged the mood here, they should be asking for a year on year increase of 6.5% until the degradation is addressed rather than a figure of 30% which the public will find ridiculous after receiving widespread support for a 22% increase not that long ago. |
Anecdotal evidence but just drove past the hospital and few were out there with signs and no one was honking, whereas last time they were. Admittedly may be due to the fact that 2/3s of the people out there were with Palestinian flags which was strange. |  |
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| Junior Doctors on 14:46 - Jul 25 with 573 views | itfcjoe |
| Junior Doctors on 11:16 - Jul 25 by Freddies_Ears |
There are smarter ways to give them the rise without actually increasing their pay (such that your average football messageboard contributor would find it hard to argue against).
Given that doctors come out of training with a debt, interest-bearing, of over 100k [like, paying for their own apprenticeship], an interest moratorium would make some difference.
But that doesn't quite solve it of course. We need to lock them in as qualified docs can and do earn much, much more in other countries.
So, in addition to the interest moratorium (5% value?) reduce that 100k debt by 10k each year that the doc continues to work for the NHS. Paying 10k out of salary would be net of 40% tax, so would take around 16k a year out of 100k of salary.
This gives no pay rise, locks then in up to a decade, and is worth over 20% to them. |
And give them parking on site, plus hospital accomodation for them so they have places to sleep there if they wish to after long gruelling shifts.
Lots of little benefits that could make their job much better - but after a massive pay increase last time out theya ren't going to egt one again - the public rightly won't stand for it.
I haven't fact checked this but read that the figure they have got to is using RPI rather than CPI [like the state pension] and if you compared it to 14 years ago or 16 years ago it would be a lot lower, if you were to do it compared to one point their wages have outstripped inflation so 29% is a total false figure | |
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| Junior Doctors on 14:53 - Jul 25 with 538 views | positivity |
| Junior Doctors on 11:16 - Jul 25 by Freddies_Ears |
There are smarter ways to give them the rise without actually increasing their pay (such that your average football messageboard contributor would find it hard to argue against).
Given that doctors come out of training with a debt, interest-bearing, of over 100k [like, paying for their own apprenticeship], an interest moratorium would make some difference.
But that doesn't quite solve it of course. We need to lock them in as qualified docs can and do earn much, much more in other countries.
So, in addition to the interest moratorium (5% value?) reduce that 100k debt by 10k each year that the doc continues to work for the NHS. Paying 10k out of salary would be net of 40% tax, so would take around 16k a year out of 100k of salary.
This gives no pay rise, locks then in up to a decade, and is worth over 20% to them. |
and cut their hours, they have to work far too many. obviously this is more of a long term solution as we'll need to train/import a lot more doctors (and nurses) in the interim.
i don't want an exhausted doctor on £15 an hour making life-saving decisions for me or my loved ones! |  |
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| Junior Doctors on 14:54 - Jul 25 with 534 views | StokieBlue |
| Junior Doctors on 14:40 - Jul 25 by itfcjoe |
Anecdotal evidence but just drove past the hospital and few were out there with signs and no one was honking, whereas last time they were. Admittedly may be due to the fact that 2/3s of the people out there were with Palestinian flags which was strange. |
Why would having Palestinian flag stop people giving support?
SB |  |
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| Junior Doctors on 14:54 - Jul 25 with 532 views | oldbeardy |
It doesn't help their case that they base it on RPI rather than CPI which gives a much smaller figure for their pay degradation and is apparently generally accepted as a better measure of inflation (RPI is due to be phased out). Plus quite a few doctors presumably entered the profession after the starting point they use for their calculations. Better pay and conditions yes, over time, but not to the extent they claim they are due. | | | |
| Junior Doctors on 15:20 - Jul 25 with 497 views | itfcjoe |
| Junior Doctors on 14:54 - Jul 25 by StokieBlue |
Why would having Palestinian flag stop people giving support?
SB |
People may have thought it was for that rather than a Doctors strike as there were more signs and flags for it than there was the Unite banners etc | |
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| Junior Doctors on 15:27 - Jul 25 with 481 views | Churchman |
| Junior Doctors on 10:24 - Jul 25 by Chris_ITFC |
Like 99.9% of the population, if I asked for a 30% pay rise, I’d be politely told to jog on and get back to work.
If I thought someone else would be mad enough to give me higher pay and conditions elsewhere, I’d get my P45.
Which magic money tree is funding a 30% increase in NHS salaries, by the way? |
Doctors do an unimaginably difficult job. They are literally the difference between life and death for many people during their lives. It requires dedication, training, skill etc etc well beyond the majority, including me.
Mrs C went to see her Specialist for her three monthly post-cancer check yesterday in Maidstone Hosp and ok, he’s a senior dude, but whatever he is paid I’d pay him double if he wanted it for what he’s done for her and I suspect she’d agree if I was to ask her.
Pay these people. Can’t find the money? In a £3.5tn economy of course we can. The tories found billions to line their friends’ pockets during Covid. Magic money tree in full bloom when it suited them. The current lot are paying out for asylum seekers six times what it’d cost to pay Junior Doctors properly and the money is no problem at all. Not a peep about it from the government because the money is there and it’s a priority.
If I’m wrong and the £ isn’t there, 1p on income tax will bring in £1.6bn. Make it 2p in the £1 and we can pay a bit more to the rest of the health service staff too. I’d be more than happy to pay it. It’s not about the money, it’s about the choices we make. | | | |
| Junior Doctors on 15:30 - Jul 25 with 472 views | brazil1982 |
When I accepted my job, I knew the salary. |  | | |
| Junior Doctors on 15:32 - Jul 25 with 460 views | Herbivore |
| Junior Doctors on 15:30 - Jul 25 by brazil1982 |
When I accepted my job, I knew the salary. |
Cool. Did you also know that your employer would only give you below inflation pay increases for the next 15 years too? | |
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| Junior Doctors on 15:38 - Jul 25 with 458 views | blueasfook |
| Junior Doctors on 14:40 - Jul 25 by itfcjoe |
Anecdotal evidence but just drove past the hospital and few were out there with signs and no one was honking, whereas last time they were. Admittedly may be due to the fact that 2/3s of the people out there were with Palestinian flags which was strange. |
Interesting. Tells us the type of people we are dealing with here. |  |
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| Junior Doctors on 15:41 - Jul 25 with 433 views | Churchman |
| Junior Doctors on 15:30 - Jul 25 by brazil1982 |
When I accepted my job, I knew the salary. |
I take it you are happy with your salary the way it was when you joined on the basis you didn’t mind real year in year out pay cuts, thanks to inflation. Unless you were banking on getting promoted.
That’s what public sector workers have faced for decades. ‘So leave then’. Yes, fine - as long as you are happy to accept no public services as a direct consequence. | | | |
| Junior Doctors on 15:52 - Jul 25 with 414 views | positivity |
| Junior Doctors on 15:38 - Jul 25 by blueasfook |
Interesting. Tells us the type of people we are dealing with here. |
people who are happy to clap when nothing is on the line, but not to honk to pay doctors better? | |
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| Junior Doctors on 15:58 - Jul 25 with 386 views | jontysnut |
| Junior Doctors on 10:41 - Jul 25 by BloomBlue |
Don't see the problem. The books have to balance, give them the pay they want, but pay for it by reducing the spending from another area within the NHS. Or better still reduce the waste in the NHS. Like too many public sectors, ie the military, there is so much waste you could save billions if you reduced the waste. There needs to be a bottom to top reform and reduce the waste. |
Resident doctors have a case in that their pay hasn't kept pace with inflation. However you can say that for nearly everyone in the public sector and probably a big chunk of workers in the private sector. The BMA is always in a strong negotiating position given the implications of doctors taking industrial action. They don't have to concede anything. On the other no-one, other than those involved, seems to be too bothered about bin workers in Birmingham facing an £8,000 pay cut or nurses resorting to food banks. |  | | |
| Junior Doctors on 16:11 - Jul 25 with 346 views | LeoMuff |
| Junior Doctors on 15:58 - Jul 25 by jontysnut |
Resident doctors have a case in that their pay hasn't kept pace with inflation. However you can say that for nearly everyone in the public sector and probably a big chunk of workers in the private sector. The BMA is always in a strong negotiating position given the implications of doctors taking industrial action. They don't have to concede anything. On the other no-one, other than those involved, seems to be too bothered about bin workers in Birmingham facing an £8,000 pay cut or nurses resorting to food banks. |
Think the nursing union is voting for strike action as we speak, and rightly so they got even less than the doctors in real terms not an increase at all and certainly didn’t get 22% last year with the same wages freezes under the previous mob for 17 years but on far less wages. |  |
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