| This is absolutely horrible from Reform 20:53 - Jun 26 with 8002 views | StokieBlue |
They have expanded their plans against EU nationals if they get into power:
"Announcing what he called the “migrants labour levy”, Robert Jenrick, Reform’s Treasury spokesperson, said employers would have to pay higher national insurance for non-UK nationals, as well as an annual fee that would be more for lower earners, citing the possibility of £3,750 for someone on the “national living wage”, a surcharge of about 15%."
"There would be no additional consideration given for EU nationals, even if they had been in the UK for decades, or had a UK national partner and children, Jenrick said, and his message for such people was that if they lost their job because of the levy they should leave."
"Both the new policies would require a renegotiation of the Brexit deal, with the possibility that the EU would penalise UK nationals living in the bloc as a reciprocal policy, or impose trade barriers."
"If you are in this country and you are not a British citizen, and you are somebody who will not be able to stay in the UK under a Reform government, then you should think of leaving the country."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk
SB
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| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:09 - Jun 27 with 1474 views | lowhouseblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:44 - Jun 27 by Dubtractor |
I mean, if you completely ignore my third paragraph you could conclude that, yes.
And you wonder why people accuse you of dishonest debate on here. |
and if you completely ignore the question marks in my post you won't realise that i'm asking you to explain how you would respond to the fundamental conflicts inherent in all this.
the extent to which i don't care about what people accuse me of on here would astound you. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:15 - Jun 27 with 1443 views | Horsham |
My Dad is an EU national. He’s been in this country since the age of 7 and worked solidly and paid into the system for an entire working life. He’s contributed to this country to à significant level in his own way and became a respected expert in his field. He’s retired now and has been for about 15 years.
His brother has a similar story but took British citizenship. The only difference is my Dad didn’t - considered it unnecessary and he’s proud of the country he came from.
He’ll be àbout 80 by the time Reform are likely to have a chance to get in.
Under this system will they throw an old man with an English wife and British kids out of the country?
It’s not really clear what they’ll actually do but there’s a real effect on those likely to be affected.
Honestly I know that my family example is just one and the hatred directed to other members of society is worse - but this is a further demonstration of the below being played out
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. |  | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:32 - Jun 27 with 1383 views | Dubtractor |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:09 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
and if you completely ignore the question marks in my post you won't realise that i'm asking you to explain how you would respond to the fundamental conflicts inherent in all this.
the extent to which i don't care about what people accuse me of on here would astound you. |
"but I can't be bothered to get into that detail right now"
That bit of my comment above also seemed to pass you by.
Not interested in spending my morning debating this, just thought I'd share my thoughts with Chantryblueboy. |  |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:34 - Jun 27 with 1367 views | lowhouseblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:32 - Jun 27 by Dubtractor |
"but I can't be bothered to get into that detail right now"
That bit of my comment above also seemed to pass you by.
Not interested in spending my morning debating this, just thought I'd share my thoughts with Chantryblueboy. |
so you can't be bothered to engage with the important bit? then, why bother posting? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:36 - Jun 27 with 1356 views | NewcyBlue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:09 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
and if you completely ignore the question marks in my post you won't realise that i'm asking you to explain how you would respond to the fundamental conflicts inherent in all this.
the extent to which i don't care about what people accuse me of on here would astound you. |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:37 - Jun 27 with 1341 views | lowhouseblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:36 - Jun 27 by NewcyBlue |
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:50 - Jun 27 with 1289 views | nrb1985 |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 22:05 - Jun 26 by Guthrum |
Good. Hopefully they will pull each other down the drain and into unelectability. |
Well, quite. See Makerfield for that.
Let’s hope you’re right.
I also think Farage has no interest in being PM ultimately so he may allow himself to move further right - given he has nothing to lose. |  | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:53 - Jun 27 with 1280 views | eireblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:20 - Jun 27 by chantryblueboy |
I literally said about 3 posts ago that it was the fault of the companies, but that they are enabled by mass migration
I don’t see how you think bringing over 2.5 million people in since 2020 won’t have a knock on effect on the labour market. It’s nonsense |
First you have to consider demographic data, not immigration data.
And that is two fold, demographics of the U.K. and of the immigration data.
Not all immigrants are coming to the U.K. to work, not all are of working age.
The current work force is smaller compared to the retired workforce, than it was 20/30 years ago.
Youth unemployment, and getting a job when I entered the market was also very tough, I applied for loads of jobs, I had the same problems of the youth today had. Took me about a year to get a permanent job.
But that was down to economic factors. Not high immigration.
One things a lot of friends used to do during that time was go to Europe and work. That option has been removed by Brexit.
The U.K. has been in an economic slump since the banking crisis, made worse by Brexit, and opportunities for the youth have been reduced by Brexit.
Removing free movement of labour meant there would be an increase in immigration.
All of that was predicted. |  | | |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:54 - Jun 27 with 1271 views | Dubtractor |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:34 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
so you can't be bothered to engage with the important bit? then, why bother posting? |
Why?
Because I really have better things to do with my time than wasting it debating with someone as tedious as you.
The fact I implied it was ethically complicated should make clear that I dont think there is a simple answer, and that to do it justice would take more effort than I'm inclined to give on a Saturday morning.
But as usual, you do you. | |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:57 - Jun 27 with 1251 views | NewcyBlue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 09:54 - Jun 27 by Dubtractor |
Why?
Because I really have better things to do with my time than wasting it debating with someone as tedious as you.
The fact I implied it was ethically complicated should make clear that I dont think there is a simple answer, and that to do it justice would take more effort than I'm inclined to give on a Saturday morning.
But as usual, you do you. |
I need a good heavy gym playlist for my next voyage Dubbers. Got any links? I'd be most grateful! | |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 10:04 - Jun 27 with 1210 views | StokieBlue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:20 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
you won't get far with this. there is a strange but fundamental axion held by some that any number of migrants is good and any type of migrant is good. challenging that is unacceptable. you can point to the impact of low skill arrivals in the labour market and you'll be told that they're all exclusively doctors or care workers. you can ask how net migration of nearly 3 million in a short period of years have been housed without affecting the housing crisis and you'll be told that we don't build enough homes. you'll be told that withholding leave to remain for people on care visas will damage the care sector, even though once someone has leave to remain there is no longer the condition that they must work in the care sector. you'll be told that migrants are all highly productive, but they won't explain the 1.4 million foreign nationals between 18 and 65 who are neets.
immigration being an unconditional good is just an article of faith. for what it's worth, the current government has done extremely well is moving to a good and sustainable level (long term at net migration at 100,000 plus a year and focused on skilled workers) and the newly announced sponsored refugee scheme appears, on the face of it, to be extremely positive. |
Where is anyone saying anything like that?
The points are mainly around the fact they are describing policies which have the very real chance of meaning someone who has been here for a long time, with a settled life, family etc could be forced to leave as they become unemployable.
You've just used it to have a go at immigration like you always do.
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| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 10:22 - Jun 27 with 1176 views | bluelagos |
Demonising foreigners to play to those who think we should prioritise UK workers - as if UK workers don't have every opportunity at the moment - but rather than address improving opportunities - just point the finger at those born overseas.
Of course it will play well with some people but what they miss, is those who actually value migrants will be appalled. They won't lose any votes but what they will do is focus those keen to keep Reform out.
Liberals, Greens, Labour and Nationalist voters will be more likely to vote tactically on the back of such divisive policies.
And, I don't for a minute think it will happen. Why would the EU ever agree to it?
What it will do is make millions of EU nationals living and working in the UK feel even less welcome - which I guess is irrelevant to those defending such policies. Telling people who have (like my partner) lived in the UK over 30 years that they will be treated differently because of where they were born is disgusting but not remotely surprising from a party that is populated by racist scum like Farage.
Labour need to stand up for what is right - and stop playing to the gallery of Reform/Restore. Make the case for the positive contributions of migration over decades past and the need in the future.
And to think our CEO hosted these k*nts and so many people shrug their shoulders as if it doesn't matter. |  |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 10:34 - Jun 27 with 1131 views | lowhouseblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 10:04 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
Where is anyone saying anything like that?
The points are mainly around the fact they are describing policies which have the very real chance of meaning someone who has been here for a long time, with a settled life, family etc could be forced to leave as they become unemployable.
You've just used it to have a go at immigration like you always do.
SB |
"Where is anyone saying anything like that?"
if you've read what a group of people have posted on here over a very long period it is the only plausible conclusion.
i haven't 'had a go at immigration'. that is just a dog whistle to the usual posters to unthinkingly dismiss what i've said. the reality is i have discussed what is a desirable and sustainable level of immigration. do you see the difference? and, indeed, that version is 'like i always do'. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 10:45 - Jun 27 with 1095 views | StokieBlue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 10:34 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
"Where is anyone saying anything like that?"
if you've read what a group of people have posted on here over a very long period it is the only plausible conclusion.
i haven't 'had a go at immigration'. that is just a dog whistle to the usual posters to unthinkingly dismiss what i've said. the reality is i have discussed what is a desirable and sustainable level of immigration. do you see the difference? and, indeed, that version is 'like i always do'. |
So you're referring to historic points rather than actually addressing the points made in the thread and the points made in the article.
Sigh.
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| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 11:54 - Jun 27 with 992 views | lowhouseblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 10:45 - Jun 27 by StokieBlue |
So you're referring to historic points rather than actually addressing the points made in the thread and the points made in the article.
Sigh.
SB |
perhaps you have the memory of a goldfish and approach each thread as a wide eyed new born, but lots of posters have been here long enough to have spotted patterns. yes, we do all read what people post in the context of what they've posted before.
when, misleadingly, you said 'like you always do" were you "referring to historic points"? that seems a little inconsistent, no? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 12:01 - Jun 27 with 976 views | Guthrum |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 00:23 - Jun 27 by chantryblueboy |
You said unemployment was not related to immigration. How can the labour market increase by 2.5 million, and that have no effect on unemployment? Seems like very simple supply and demand to me |
Except that young people - who have all been shunted through university (to keep them off the jobs market and instead of perhaps more useful voctional training) and are now loaded with tens of thousands in debt - are not taking £12.71 per hour jobs in the care industry, nor are they trained in nursing (which, at the basic HCA level, is not paid much better). To get somewhere to live and pay thir bills, it is simply not affordable.
That's without considering that a large portion of the officially-recorded immigration figures in recent years has been international students (upon which our universities rely for funding), who are not simply entering the employment market. |  |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 12:02 - Jun 27 with 976 views | BlueBadger |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 21:47 - Jun 26 by reusersfreekicks |
Like Trump voters they fall into 3 camps
The nasty bastards
The very thick and gullible ones
The ones who should know better but think they might be a few quid better off |
There's a lot of overlap between all.those categories, too. |  |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 12:09 - Jun 27 with 953 views | StokieBlue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 11:54 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
perhaps you have the memory of a goldfish and approach each thread as a wide eyed new born, but lots of posters have been here long enough to have spotted patterns. yes, we do all read what people post in the context of what they've posted before.
when, misleadingly, you said 'like you always do" were you "referring to historic points"? that seems a little inconsistent, no? |
Disingenuous to the last.
Literally ignored the subject that was being discussed to pivot to your pet subject. You've not even commented on that actual things that were being discussed.
It's a total waste of time engaging with you.
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| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 12:32 - Jun 27 with 896 views | leitrimblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 08:20 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
you won't get far with this. there is a strange but fundamental axion held by some that any number of migrants is good and any type of migrant is good. challenging that is unacceptable. you can point to the impact of low skill arrivals in the labour market and you'll be told that they're all exclusively doctors or care workers. you can ask how net migration of nearly 3 million in a short period of years have been housed without affecting the housing crisis and you'll be told that we don't build enough homes. you'll be told that withholding leave to remain for people on care visas will damage the care sector, even though once someone has leave to remain there is no longer the condition that they must work in the care sector. you'll be told that migrants are all highly productive, but they won't explain the 1.4 million foreign nationals between 18 and 65 who are neets.
immigration being an unconditional good is just an article of faith. for what it's worth, the current government has done extremely well is moving to a good and sustainable level (long term at net migration at 100,000 plus a year and focused on skilled workers) and the newly announced sponsored refugee scheme appears, on the face of it, to be extremely positive. |
Just wondering, do you agree that EU nationals, even if they have been in the UK for decades or have a UK national partner or children, if they lose their job should just leave the country? |  | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 12:49 - Jun 27 with 860 views | TheMoralMajority |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 10:34 - Jun 27 by lowhouseblue |
"Where is anyone saying anything like that?"
if you've read what a group of people have posted on here over a very long period it is the only plausible conclusion.
i haven't 'had a go at immigration'. that is just a dog whistle to the usual posters to unthinkingly dismiss what i've said. the reality is i have discussed what is a desirable and sustainable level of immigration. do you see the difference? and, indeed, that version is 'like i always do'. |
if you've read what a group of people have posted on here over a very long period it is the only plausible conclusion.
So, what you are basically saying, is that no one has said it, and this is the view that you have decided to attribute to a group of people to fit your strawman argument?
Righto. |  |
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 13:41 - Jun 27 with 787 views | marcus1642 |
Fabulous idea. Then maybe employers/government will finally invest real money into training the native population. |  | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 13:51 - Jun 27 with 749 views | benrhyddingblue |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 23:07 - Jun 26 by chantryblueboy |
The fact that there were hundreds of applicants doesn’t sound like a problem to you? |
Just because I had 100s of applications doesn’t mean 100s were capable of doing the job. Have you ever hired someone to a skilled role before, if so then you will know how difficult and time consuming it is. And based on what you are saying I don’t end up hiring the people best suited to the role? That would mean 1/ I’m not doing my job correctly; 2/ I’m not acting in the best interests of the company. [Post edited 27 Jun 14:08]
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 13:53 - Jun 27 with 749 views | DJR |
This strikes me as performative nonsense designed especially to appeal to people tempted to vote for Restore.
I can't see it ever seeing the light of day, especially for EU nationals given the withdrawal agreement.
And it appears to be putting an extra burden on companies which, when it comes to social care, is not going to solve the crisis in social care. [Post edited 27 Jun 13:56]
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| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 13:59 - Jun 27 with 723 views | marcus1642 |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 22:00 - Jun 26 by Guthrum |
It'll open up loads of jobs for UK workers - who weren't filling those roles, on the wages those employers pay, in the first place. But it will destroy the care industry, so Reformers won't have anyone to wipe their arses in old age. |
There are multiple reasons why British workers won't work in the care professions.
But the main ones are:
Poor pay
Scumbag managers (That's most of them) who treat you like dirt. | | | |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 14:25 - Jun 27 with 655 views | Guthrum |
| This is absolutely horrible from Reform on 13:59 - Jun 27 by marcus1642 |
There are multiple reasons why British workers won't work in the care professions.
But the main ones are:
Poor pay
Scumbag managers (That's most of them) who treat you like dirt. |
Indeed. But that's not going to change just because they have no migrant workers to employ. It'll just mean more UK workers claiming top-up benefits, which will add to the welfare cost and thus maybe force an increase in taxation.
The investment companies which own these (very high-charging, even if the workers don't see much of that) care firms only care about profitability. | |
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