| And there was I thinking 22:23 - Jul 15 with 5099 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
Absolutely no one could mismanage a big game like Gareth Southgate. |  |
| |  |
| And there was I thinking on 00:15 - Jul 16 with 740 views | lordsambuca |
Watching some of the press conference he came across as arrogant. Effectively blaming the players. He was recruited for these occasions and has failed. As the Independent are reporting he bottled it. |  | | |
| And there was I thinking on 00:50 - Jul 16 with 678 views | Butterbing |
| And there was I thinking on 22:30 - Jul 15 by homer_123 |
I'm gonna get pelters for this.
I saw a team that scored the first goal and shrank. Literally stopped playing and dropped deeper and deeper. We never troubled Argentina again.
I don't think that is on Tuchel. I think the players need to look at themselves.
Clearly the plan was to manage Messi and then try and play on the break and quickly. It was perfect and then all that discipline stopped.
The players looked scared.
I think Tuchel reacted and tried to shore us up as by that point getting us back on any kind of front foot was impossible. It didn't work.
Why the players stopped I can't say but I don't think it was on Tuchels instruction. [Post edited 16 Jul 8:51]
|
No pelters from me. I can see your point except that Tuchel substituted midfielders and attackers for defenders so is entirely at fault for the tactical errors. The players did their best but were screwed by poor tactics. |  | | |
| And there was I thinking on 07:34 - Jul 16 with 608 views | Blue_In_Boston |
Maybe it isn't a manager issue, more a mindset or psyche within our players? Teams subconsciously drop deeper to protect a lead and if the manager can't coax them out of that mentality what does he do.
The midfield looked shattered and Argentina just swamped us, sadly the inevitable happened. | | | |
| And there was I thinking on 07:49 - Jul 16 with 603 views | cressi |
| And there was I thinking on 23:52 - Jul 15 by MVBlue |
Tuchel is not gone. People too quick to replace. Bobby Robson lasted 8 years despite the press and gave his best in the final tournament 1990. Think how well we have done. And Bellingham is far better than Gascoigne. that was our best World Cup since 1966 when the dust settles, i'm calling it. |
I wouldn't go that far a similar world cup to others.
Let's be honest we are not that good. All the top sides in the Premiership are made up of foreign players. If honest we should have lost to Norway every world cup England are over hyped and will be again in four years time. | | | |
| And there was I thinking on 07:52 - Jul 16 with 600 views | thorpedo |
| And there was I thinking on 00:50 - Jul 16 by Butterbing |
No pelters from me. I can see your point except that Tuchel substituted midfielders and attackers for defenders so is entirely at fault for the tactical errors. The players did their best but were screwed by poor tactics. |
I agree that the tactics were poor , but Tuchel didn't instruct his 7 defenders to allow 5,9" Alexis MacAllister to win every header in the box. Players need t be held accountable as well as Tuchel, who made admittedly terrible adjustments. |  |
| |
| And there was I thinking on 07:58 - Jul 16 with 591 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
I just dont know why he didn't bring on fresh legs ip front, Rashford or someone just to give us an outlet. Those last 10 mins felt made for Ivan Toney, we could all see it comming |  |
| |
| And there was I thinking on 08:02 - Jul 16 with 587 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
Potentially the worst subs I have ever seen.
We had 5 at the back, it clearly wasn't working, Argentina were creating chances when we had 5 at the back and didn't score and he didn't change it and then they scored. Crazy. |  |
| |
| And there was I thinking on 08:02 - Jul 16 with 585 views | naa |
| And there was I thinking on 22:37 - Jul 15 by TractorWood |
I hear you. However, we scored and briefly Argentina looked rattled by it.
However, we tactically crumbled from 3 substitutions that were totally negative. |
Those subs were 17 mins after the goal. Kane himself said the plan was to go for a second but the players just got deeper and deeper. Tuchel I guess decided that he couldn't get them to push up, as they'd been told to and weren't, so shored up the defence instead.
I think it's on Tuchel and the players personally. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| And there was I thinking on 08:05 - Jul 16 with 579 views | m14_blue |
| And there was I thinking on 22:37 - Jul 15 by TractorWood |
I hear you. However, we scored and briefly Argentina looked rattled by it.
However, we tactically crumbled from 3 substitutions that were totally negative. |
Yep.
I just assumed if we could get through to the hydration break then he would make some changes and get us up the pitch and to start playing again.
He did the opposite.
Absolutely suicidal. | | | |
| And there was I thinking on 08:09 - Jul 16 with 576 views | naa |
| And there was I thinking on 07:49 - Jul 16 by cressi |
I wouldn't go that far a similar world cup to others.
Let's be honest we are not that good. All the top sides in the Premiership are made up of foreign players. If honest we should have lost to Norway every world cup England are over hyped and will be again in four years time. |
Agree. Yet again fans think we should be getting to the final and winning. Not really sure why. We have Kane and Bellingham, in theory Rice but he wasn't fit last night and then 2 or 3 very good players, the rest are nothing special.
Kane is 32 and limited these days. We have no strikers coming through at all (other than Delap who currently feels a long way away), Anderson looked worth £130 not £130m frankly.
We are over rated. But people will never see that and blame the manager like they did Southgate, despite his amazing record. [Post edited 16 Jul 8:11]
| | | |
| And there was I thinking on 08:13 - Jul 16 with 569 views | BlueRaider |
| And there was I thinking on 22:56 - Jul 15 by darkhorse28 |
Have to agree / the most Southgate thing ever.
Kane on with 209 defenders and zero pace to counter - while Saka and Watkins get the water bottles filled up.
Watkins/Rashford/Rogers/Saka/Gordon - any combination on the break would have caused them huge issues.
We’ve basically went attack V Defense with a third of a game to go, against a side with twice the quality of a Mexico or Norway .., not great decision making for sure.
Argentina are v good - when they play, which only seems to be when they’re behind and rolling about for fouls doesn’t cut it. But with their defender booked and clumsy at times, we’d have killed them with pace on the counter.
But a wild ride.., everything right up until when it matters in the heat of battle.
You’re 100% right. Southgate esk. Uncanny. |
You're right, they are an odd side, they were fantastic for that 35 minutes when they played, until we scored all they wanted to do was niggle, but it was like they flicked a switch. | |
| |
| And there was I thinking on 09:32 - Jul 16 with 537 views | Ryorry |
| And there was I thinking on 23:40 - Jul 15 by pointofblue |
Are they really going to sack Tuchel after making the World Cup semi finals? Even with the tactical disaster class tonight. |
Quite, he'd got it right up to the point of his second-half substitutions - surely he'll learn from that? Starting again with a new boss would immediately set us back for 2028. |  |
| |
| And there was I thinking on 09:38 - Jul 16 with 524 views | Ryorry |
| And there was I thinking on 08:02 - Jul 16 by naa |
Those subs were 17 mins after the goal. Kane himself said the plan was to go for a second but the players just got deeper and deeper. Tuchel I guess decided that he couldn't get them to push up, as they'd been told to and weren't, so shored up the defence instead.
I think it's on Tuchel and the players personally. |
"Tuchel I guess decided that he couldn't get them to push up, as they'd been told to and weren't, so shored up the defence instead."
So why didn't he bring Saka on at that point, or Rashford earlier than he did? As I said on another thread, it was as though he'd forgotten about "attack is the best form of defence". | |
| |
| And there was I thinking on 10:23 - Jul 16 with 501 views | MVBlue |
| And there was I thinking on 07:49 - Jul 16 by cressi |
I wouldn't go that far a similar world cup to others.
Let's be honest we are not that good. All the top sides in the Premiership are made up of foreign players. If honest we should have lost to Norway every world cup England are over hyped and will be again in four years time. |
We are good enough. If we do the right approach and smother Messi all match we make the final. We are a damn good side. |  |
| |
| And there was I thinking on 10:27 - Jul 16 with 494 views | BloomBlue |
| And there was I thinking on 22:30 - Jul 15 by homer_123 |
I'm gonna get pelters for this.
I saw a team that scored the first goal and shrank. Literally stopped playing and dropped deeper and deeper. We never troubled Argentina again.
I don't think that is on Tuchel. I think the players need to look at themselves.
Clearly the plan was to manage Messi and then try and play on the break and quickly. It was perfect and then all that discipline stopped.
The players looked scared.
I think Tuchel reacted and tried to shore us up as by that point getting us back on any kind of front foot was impossible. It didn't work.
Why the players stopped I can't say but I don't think it was on Tuchels instruction. [Post edited 16 Jul 8:51]
|
I think that's a fair point. I said on another post as soon as we scored we went backwards and within mins only a brilliant Spence tackle in the box, probably, stopped it being 1-1.
But when you're team is back tracking like that you need to make the changes which reverses that. Bringing on more defenders didn't help, we gave too much space in the middle. When you have a world class player like Messi, give him space, and he will drop an inch perfect ball on someone's head.
It also makes it very difficult to pick up players running from deep. The Argies crosses were perfect they kept dropping them towards the penalty spot, not down Pickford's throat, that meant a player running from deep was always likely to find space. |  | | |
| And there was I thinking on 10:36 - Jul 16 with 486 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| And there was I thinking on 22:30 - Jul 15 by homer_123 |
I'm gonna get pelters for this.
I saw a team that scored the first goal and shrank. Literally stopped playing and dropped deeper and deeper. We never troubled Argentina again.
I don't think that is on Tuchel. I think the players need to look at themselves.
Clearly the plan was to manage Messi and then try and play on the break and quickly. It was perfect and then all that discipline stopped.
The players looked scared.
I think Tuchel reacted and tried to shore us up as by that point getting us back on any kind of front foot was impossible. It didn't work.
Why the players stopped I can't say but I don't think it was on Tuchels instruction. [Post edited 16 Jul 8:51]
|
When you take off midfielders and replace them with Defenders, you are conceding possession, inviting the opposition onto you and saying "We can handle you".
So it's not necessarily a "shrinking" thing.
The problem England had was that there then needed to be an out-ball. One, quick, attacker needed to stay as close to the half way line as possible, to pick up at least some of the punts out of defence.
Gordon went off. In my opinion Rice was absolutely blowing at that point, and had he come off and Gordon stayed on then he could have been the out-ball.
Or Rashford could have come on for Gordon, like-for-like, if Gordon was spent or had picked up a knock.
If Gordon/Rashford had stayed up top then Argentina would probably have kept two men back. He would only need to get on the end of one in four clearances and Argentina would have had a problem.
I thought the same about KM and how we defended corners etc when we held a lead but were under pressure. We would often have everybody in the box and no outlet. If you have an outlet it gives the opposition a problem to worry about, and relieves some of the pressure.
There must be some statistical analysis done which says that you are less likely to concede with everybody back, or KM and TT would not do it, but it seems utterly counter-intuitive to me. | | | |
| And there was I thinking on 12:56 - Jul 16 with 410 views | naa |
| And there was I thinking on 09:38 - Jul 16 by Ryorry |
"Tuchel I guess decided that he couldn't get them to push up, as they'd been told to and weren't, so shored up the defence instead."
So why didn't he bring Saka on at that point, or Rashford earlier than he did? As I said on another thread, it was as though he'd forgotten about "attack is the best form of defence". |
That's why I said it was on him and the players.
He had other options but chose to reinforce what the players were naturally doing rather than try and force them up the pitch. | | | |
| And there was I thinking on 13:12 - Jul 16 with 393 views | vapour_trail |
| And there was I thinking on 10:27 - Jul 16 by BloomBlue |
I think that's a fair point. I said on another post as soon as we scored we went backwards and within mins only a brilliant Spence tackle in the box, probably, stopped it being 1-1.
But when you're team is back tracking like that you need to make the changes which reverses that. Bringing on more defenders didn't help, we gave too much space in the middle. When you have a world class player like Messi, give him space, and he will drop an inch perfect ball on someone's head.
It also makes it very difficult to pick up players running from deep. The Argies crosses were perfect they kept dropping them towards the penalty spot, not down Pickford's throat, that meant a player running from deep was always likely to find space. |
That Spence tackle was insane. He’s had some tournament. |  |
| |
| And there was I thinking on 13:39 - Jul 16 with 378 views | Rsj13 |
| And there was I thinking on 22:30 - Jul 15 by homer_123 |
I'm gonna get pelters for this.
I saw a team that scored the first goal and shrank. Literally stopped playing and dropped deeper and deeper. We never troubled Argentina again.
I don't think that is on Tuchel. I think the players need to look at themselves.
Clearly the plan was to manage Messi and then try and play on the break and quickly. It was perfect and then all that discipline stopped.
The players looked scared.
I think Tuchel reacted and tried to shore us up as by that point getting us back on any kind of front foot was impossible. It didn't work.
Why the players stopped I can't say but I don't think it was on Tuchels instruction. [Post edited 16 Jul 8:51]
|
I would definitely have agreed with this, if it weren't for the second half hydration break. There was a very strong sense of "hanging on until the break" immediately after the goal, which we did.
Then Tuchel had his chance to reset the team, tell them what to do, and how to manage the game. And they went deeper. Therefore, I can only assume that those were his instructions, especially when you consider his subs.
I thought the group of players were admirable - but there was no way they were going to manage 45 minutes of 11 players in the box, and it does look like that's what they were told. Otherwise Madueke and Rashford would have come off earlier. If Tuchel wanted to shift the dynamic he could have. At the hydration break or through more positive subs, and he did neither. | | | |
| And there was I thinking on 19:44 - Jul 16 with 306 views | Ryorry |
| And there was I thinking on 13:39 - Jul 16 by Rsj13 |
I would definitely have agreed with this, if it weren't for the second half hydration break. There was a very strong sense of "hanging on until the break" immediately after the goal, which we did.
Then Tuchel had his chance to reset the team, tell them what to do, and how to manage the game. And they went deeper. Therefore, I can only assume that those were his instructions, especially when you consider his subs.
I thought the group of players were admirable - but there was no way they were going to manage 45 minutes of 11 players in the box, and it does look like that's what they were told. Otherwise Madueke and Rashford would have come off earlier. If Tuchel wanted to shift the dynamic he could have. At the hydration break or through more positive subs, and he did neither. |
Assuming you meant Madueke and Rashford would have come *on* earlier, totally agree. | |
| |
| And there was I thinking on 00:12 - Jul 17 with 258 views | Rsj13 |
| And there was I thinking on 19:44 - Jul 16 by Ryorry |
Assuming you meant Madueke and Rashford would have come *on* earlier, totally agree. |
Yes, yes it was! | | | |
| And there was I thinking on 10:36 - Jul 17 with 168 views | darkhorse28 |
| And there was I thinking on 23:11 - Jul 15 by MVBlue |
Southgate never got a hydration break to give new orders did he? Did Tuchel tell Pickford to kick long constantly and continue the 12% possession? Tuchel only slightly better than Southgate, and I think that will show out over time. But we've had good fun at this tournament and after a potential incoming 24 hours of negative press he still has my respect. |
All true and he had a brain fart one tactical decision, 3 defenders for attackers and Harry with no legs left as your out ball, it was poor, but you are right, there were many many things right to get to that point. Which gets forgotten too easily, it’s like our fans with Mick.
Didn’t end well but we forget we were in the relegation zone when he arrived, and he took us to the play offs with zero money.
The thing with TT is though, that’s why we changed manager, for that exact moment and the risk taking that gets the tactics just right in the most crucial of moments, and it didn’t happen.
But hold on for 10 more mins and he’s a genius. That’s football. | | | |
| And there was I thinking on 10:48 - Jul 17 with 161 views | RadioOrwell |
| And there was I thinking on 23:41 - Jul 15 by ElderGrizzly |
Taking Gordon off for Konsa sent a very clear message to the players |
Was there anyone anywhere who didn't think that was a terrible decision - and not in hindsight either.
Seemingly that was TTs response to the team dropping deep. Laughable. |  | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
