| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes 18:49 - Jul 27 with 1514 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
and that it can't be fair to make hard working people pay more in tax , blah, blah blah. Is this just a massive societal deflection tactic from the real issue?
The overwhelming issue around raising tax revenues isn't individuals is it? It's the multinational corporations who sell £billions in products and services in the UK, but don't pay their tax here.
Visit the Republic of Ireland and see how fabulous their infrastructure is. Because the big multinationals base themselves in the RoI and pay a lower rate than anywhere else in Europe, and no tax in any other European countries including the UK, even though we are not part of the EU.
Surely we just need a government that will call it out, call the bluff of the multinationals, and say that either they pay tax in the UK at the proper rates, or we just stop them trading. Google, Meta, Amazon, Starbucks the list is long, but these companies are doing untold damage to the UK and it must be time we stood up to it.
What am I missing here? It just seems so obvious. |  |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 18:55 - Jul 27 with 1320 views | Leaky |
Just spend the money we raise more efficiently. £30K to fly him up to the no10 inthe north plus how many others going First class so the don't have to mix with the Plebs |  | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 18:57 - Jul 27 with 1299 views | Mookamoo |
You do have to factor in the huge bail-outs and cheap loans that Ireland received after the 2008 crash. A lot of their nice new infrastructure was built (pun intended) on the back of that cash. |  | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:07 - Jul 27 with 1261 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Because you can only tax profit made in the UK, that can obviously be lowered by writing off things like R+D. The EU successfully took Ireland to court and clawed back a significant amount of tax revenue in 2024, one of the benefits of being in a larger market is having the clout to do such things. If you start blocking certain firms from trading here, even though what they are doing is legal, then you end up in trade wards and retaliation. Obviously the Brexit vision was the opposite, and to turn the UK into its own tax haven.
Ultimately, it can be done via international cooperation, but there will always be a territory willing to undermine such agreements for their own gain (see Biden’s Global Minimum tax scheme). It was a good starting point but still too low, and still too easy to circumvent. |  | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:08 - Jul 27 with 1254 views | Coastalblue |
Reality is, we don't pay enough tax and it's seen as some demon here. Yes too much of it is wasted, yes there are too many not paying their share, but the truth is that we all want nice things but few are willing to pay for them.
There needs to be grown up conversations about tax, how it's raised, how it's spent and what is realistic, the trouble is that politicians on the whole have lost the public's trust entirely and it won't happen.
I don't earn a fortune, but I'd pay more tax in return for better spending on education, welfare, healthcare and defence. Instead all we ever get are promises to cut tax or not raise them. |  |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:14 - Jul 27 with 1220 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:08 - Jul 27 by Coastalblue |
Reality is, we don't pay enough tax and it's seen as some demon here. Yes too much of it is wasted, yes there are too many not paying their share, but the truth is that we all want nice things but few are willing to pay for them.
There needs to be grown up conversations about tax, how it's raised, how it's spent and what is realistic, the trouble is that politicians on the whole have lost the public's trust entirely and it won't happen.
I don't earn a fortune, but I'd pay more tax in return for better spending on education, welfare, healthcare and defence. Instead all we ever get are promises to cut tax or not raise them. |
There are no real tax cuts though, they are given with one hand and taken away with another (eg the unfunded cut to NI wasn’t really a cut as you’d pay more income tax with the bands being frozen).
We have the highest tax burden since the post war period, but also the highest debt. quite simply not enough people working and paying tax, rather than not paying enough individually. Between you and I, we have to fund one pensioner, post war 5 people were working for every pensioner. Not a pop at those who retired, just the reality of our aging population. | | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:21 - Jul 27 with 1186 views | BlueBadger |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 18:55 - Jul 27 by Leaky |
Just spend the money we raise more efficiently. £30K to fly him up to the no10 inthe north plus how many others going First class so the don't have to mix with the Plebs |
If only some friendly crypto billionaire could bung him a few mill. |  |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:25 - Jul 27 with 1164 views | Swansea_Blue |
Companies trading here but avoiding tax can’t be a good thing. It’s similar to foreign-owned utility companies extracting profit from the UK. We’ve been so desperate to chase private finance/investment that we’ve let them take the silver. And we literally sold the gold. And we’ve given companies an excuse to print money over decades with various PFI cockups. The list goes on. |  |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:33 - Jul 27 with 1134 views | nrb1985 |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:08 - Jul 27 by Coastalblue |
Reality is, we don't pay enough tax and it's seen as some demon here. Yes too much of it is wasted, yes there are too many not paying their share, but the truth is that we all want nice things but few are willing to pay for them.
There needs to be grown up conversations about tax, how it's raised, how it's spent and what is realistic, the trouble is that politicians on the whole have lost the public's trust entirely and it won't happen.
I don't earn a fortune, but I'd pay more tax in return for better spending on education, welfare, healthcare and defence. Instead all we ever get are promises to cut tax or not raise them. |
The issue is, everything else like rent, utilities etc are spiraling out of control, particularly in london - how much more money do you want to take off people when 40% of it goes on rent for many?
All very well and good saying let’s have a grown up chat but that needs to be a much broader chat.
It also looks unpalatable to lots of young people they’re being asked to stump up more tax to pay for healthcare and pensions of boomers who, in aggregate, likely had it far better.
It really isn’t that simple sadly as having a grown up chat. | | | |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:40 - Jul 27 with 1106 views | Coastalblue |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:33 - Jul 27 by nrb1985 |
The issue is, everything else like rent, utilities etc are spiraling out of control, particularly in london - how much more money do you want to take off people when 40% of it goes on rent for many?
All very well and good saying let’s have a grown up chat but that needs to be a much broader chat.
It also looks unpalatable to lots of young people they’re being asked to stump up more tax to pay for healthcare and pensions of boomers who, in aggregate, likely had it far better.
It really isn’t that simple sadly as having a grown up chat. |
You don't have to tell me, I live in zone 2.
I guess the point I was trying to make is that the perception is that tax=bad in the minds of almost everybody, the reality is that the tax we do pay is squandered, wasted and trousered so it probably is bad at the moment.
I worry we're so far gone that there's little we can really do, and now we have people literally only there to line their own pockets within touching distance of Number 10.
I don't know what I mean, except the country is f**ked, looking likely to get more f**ked and I actually feel a little apathetic about it. | |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 20:45 - Jul 27 with 1000 views | bsw72 |
Not sure your Ireland example makes sense. Multinationals base in Ireland as a result of lower corporation tax and guaranteed access to the EU. Personal tax is a different story though, Ireland’s top rate is 40%, lower than the UK’s 45%. But the 40% band starts at a fairly low income, and USC and PRSI stack on top, so middle to upper earners in Ireland end up hitting higher effective marginal rates, and hitting them earlier, than their UK equivalents. That’s where the individual picks up the slack. What the Irish government has worked out well is the balance, multinational investment has pushed up salaries in Dublin’s tech and pharma sectors enough to offset a good chunk of that squeeze, though rising housing costs eat into some of the gain.
The UK can’t compete with Ireland. Not because of corporation tax but because there’s no EU benefit to basing here. Ireland is now the only English-speaking EU member state, which is the real pull for US and UK firms. Companies avoiding corporation tax isn’t unique to the UK either, it happens everywhere. |  | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 21:03 - Jul 27 with 939 views | DarkBrandon |
The guideline we all need to understand is that we can’t raise significant amounts of tax just by taxing other people. Or other things (like companies). There just aren’t enough of them.
To come to your multinational point directly, consider Apple. They develop their phones in America, but also in many other countries. They are manufactured in China, and they source components that are themselves often made in Korea or Taiwan.
They sell their phones across the world, and (let’s assume, I don’t actually know) declare their accounts in the states.
Where should they pay their corporation tax? How much of it should be in the uk?
There are plenty of rules to govern this sort of thing, so that British companies that sell all across Europe pay their taxes here and not in the ten or twenty countries that they might sell into.
Raising taxes on multinationals is difficult politically, economically and legally. And it could well be counterproductive |  | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 21:38 - Jul 27 with 864 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 21:03 - Jul 27 by DarkBrandon |
The guideline we all need to understand is that we can’t raise significant amounts of tax just by taxing other people. Or other things (like companies). There just aren’t enough of them.
To come to your multinational point directly, consider Apple. They develop their phones in America, but also in many other countries. They are manufactured in China, and they source components that are themselves often made in Korea or Taiwan.
They sell their phones across the world, and (let’s assume, I don’t actually know) declare their accounts in the states.
Where should they pay their corporation tax? How much of it should be in the uk?
There are plenty of rules to govern this sort of thing, so that British companies that sell all across Europe pay their taxes here and not in the ten or twenty countries that they might sell into.
Raising taxes on multinationals is difficult politically, economically and legally. And it could well be counterproductive |
If products and services are sold and/or operated in the UK, then corporation tax should be paid in the UK. I know the companies will have brilliant legal teams, but our government sets the rules and should be able to collect vast amounts more than they do.
The UK doesn't feel like a wealthy, 1st world country any more. We so badly need investment in infrastructure - some canals and reservoirs for one thing, but so may hospitals, schools, roads are just falling apart. Yet we consume so much - be it technology, cars, data, food etc. our GDP is over £3Trillion.
The multinationals must love the fact that all anyone ever talks about is individual taxation, while they continue making their tens and hundreds of billions, and pay diddly squat in tax. | |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 22:17 - Jul 27 with 802 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 20:45 - Jul 27 by bsw72 |
Not sure your Ireland example makes sense. Multinationals base in Ireland as a result of lower corporation tax and guaranteed access to the EU. Personal tax is a different story though, Ireland’s top rate is 40%, lower than the UK’s 45%. But the 40% band starts at a fairly low income, and USC and PRSI stack on top, so middle to upper earners in Ireland end up hitting higher effective marginal rates, and hitting them earlier, than their UK equivalents. That’s where the individual picks up the slack. What the Irish government has worked out well is the balance, multinational investment has pushed up salaries in Dublin’s tech and pharma sectors enough to offset a good chunk of that squeeze, though rising housing costs eat into some of the gain.
The UK can’t compete with Ireland. Not because of corporation tax but because there’s no EU benefit to basing here. Ireland is now the only English-speaking EU member state, which is the real pull for US and UK firms. Companies avoiding corporation tax isn’t unique to the UK either, it happens everywhere. |
Good job we Took Back Control innit 👍 | |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 08:00 - Jul 28 with 627 views | StokieBlue |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 18:55 - Jul 27 by Leaky |
Just spend the money we raise more efficiently. £30K to fly him up to the no10 inthe north plus how many others going First class so the don't have to mix with the Plebs |
Yep, that's the real issue there, well done.
SB |  |
| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 08:08 - Jul 28 with 609 views | StokieBlue |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:33 - Jul 27 by nrb1985 |
The issue is, everything else like rent, utilities etc are spiraling out of control, particularly in london - how much more money do you want to take off people when 40% of it goes on rent for many?
All very well and good saying let’s have a grown up chat but that needs to be a much broader chat.
It also looks unpalatable to lots of young people they’re being asked to stump up more tax to pay for healthcare and pensions of boomers who, in aggregate, likely had it far better.
It really isn’t that simple sadly as having a grown up chat. |
He's right though, as a country we spend far beyond our means. If we want to keep doing that then realistically someone will have to pay more or there needs to be cuts. Perpetually increasing borrowing isn't a realistic answer as debt servicing becomes an issue and borrow costs increase.
I suspect we will see some form of overhaul to property/land taxes and that will cause a total meltdown from many quarters.
SB | |
| Avatar - M101 - Pinwheel Galaxy |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 08:21 - Jul 28 with 556 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:14 - Jul 27 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
There are no real tax cuts though, they are given with one hand and taken away with another (eg the unfunded cut to NI wasn’t really a cut as you’d pay more income tax with the bands being frozen).
We have the highest tax burden since the post war period, but also the highest debt. quite simply not enough people working and paying tax, rather than not paying enough individually. Between you and I, we have to fund one pensioner, post war 5 people were working for every pensioner. Not a pop at those who retired, just the reality of our aging population. |
Agreed though you have left out the impact of an increasing life expectancy. Basically the increase means around two years of drawing a pension has turned into fifteen years of pension. So that is say a seven fold increase in cost being paid for by fewer contributing funders. |  | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 08:23 - Jul 28 with 553 views | BlueRaider |
We need international co-operation on tax, most countries have similar issues to us with fiscal deficits, so why not just tax MNCs globally, and then apportion their taxable profit to each country based on turnover. No more transfer pricing issues, no more worrying about what constitutes a permanent establishment, and each country can still set their own tax rate.
You could probably do something similar for high net worth individuals too. | |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 08:27 - Jul 28 with 544 views | nrb1985 |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 08:08 - Jul 28 by StokieBlue |
He's right though, as a country we spend far beyond our means. If we want to keep doing that then realistically someone will have to pay more or there needs to be cuts. Perpetually increasing borrowing isn't a realistic answer as debt servicing becomes an issue and borrow costs increase.
I suspect we will see some form of overhaul to property/land taxes and that will cause a total meltdown from many quarters.
SB |
Yeah fine but let's also have a chat about rent controls, utility bills, transport costs and all the other stuff.
You can't just keep asking people to pay more tax.
High taxes work in places like the Nordics where you have SIGNIFICANTLY lower cost of housing and travel and utility bills which are broadly the in line with ours.
If you have high taxes, high cost of housing, high travel costs and high utility bills then what kind of economy are you expecting? | | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 08:47 - Jul 28 with 469 views | hype313 |
Brexit and Covid, on top of 10 years of austerity have exacerbated the issue, we are in huge debt, and the exchequer receives less than it pays out.
Keep taxing by all means, but it's political suicide, which is why every party has avoided the issue or has skirted around it.
I honestly don't know what the answer is, but if we continue in the status quo, then the NHS will collapse, the road infrastructure will buckle, social services will crumble and the country will be in ruin.
None of the parties seem to have any idea on how to fix it.
Someone made a good point yesterday about Tax evasion, slam the door shut on that, so the rich can't use expensive accountants to circumnavigate the loopholes. Thats a start. |  |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 09:08 - Jul 28 with 429 views | nrb1985 |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 08:47 - Jul 28 by hype313 |
Brexit and Covid, on top of 10 years of austerity have exacerbated the issue, we are in huge debt, and the exchequer receives less than it pays out.
Keep taxing by all means, but it's political suicide, which is why every party has avoided the issue or has skirted around it.
I honestly don't know what the answer is, but if we continue in the status quo, then the NHS will collapse, the road infrastructure will buckle, social services will crumble and the country will be in ruin.
None of the parties seem to have any idea on how to fix it.
Someone made a good point yesterday about Tax evasion, slam the door shut on that, so the rich can't use expensive accountants to circumnavigate the loopholes. Thats a start. |
Tax that can be legally avoided by "clever" accounting accounts of 0.8bn a year in the UK.
Not even going to touch the sides.
Tax evasion is obviously illegal and there is a huge concerted international effort to clamp down on that.
The obvious answer is to have a growing and thriving economy but that will involve some very difficult decisions about whether we want to be a bit more like our cousins in the US or our neighbours in Europe.
Each system has it's merit but also comes with significant trade offs.
Eg Sunak's post brexit vision of "singapore on thames" would have probably done quite well but would also have involved a bit of a bonfire of regulation - of which I don't think we have any appetite for in the UK. | | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 09:15 - Jul 28 with 398 views | DarkBrandon |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 21:38 - Jul 27 by LegendofthePhoenix |
If products and services are sold and/or operated in the UK, then corporation tax should be paid in the UK. I know the companies will have brilliant legal teams, but our government sets the rules and should be able to collect vast amounts more than they do.
The UK doesn't feel like a wealthy, 1st world country any more. We so badly need investment in infrastructure - some canals and reservoirs for one thing, but so may hospitals, schools, roads are just falling apart. Yet we consume so much - be it technology, cars, data, food etc. our GDP is over £3Trillion.
The multinationals must love the fact that all anyone ever talks about is individual taxation, while they continue making their tens and hundreds of billions, and pay diddly squat in tax. |
So any UK company selling widgets to the EU should pay corporation tax in each of those countries? | | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 09:21 - Jul 28 with 371 views | chicoazul |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 19:25 - Jul 27 by Swansea_Blue |
Companies trading here but avoiding tax can’t be a good thing. It’s similar to foreign-owned utility companies extracting profit from the UK. We’ve been so desperate to chase private finance/investment that we’ve let them take the silver. And we literally sold the gold. And we’ve given companies an excuse to print money over decades with various PFI cockups. The list goes on. |
Indeed the list does go on and yet all many TWTDers want is to give the useless political class even more money to waste. |  |
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| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 09:24 - Jul 28 with 356 views | OldFart71 |
I fear that the main reason for us not getting the tax we should be getting from these big conglomerates is that the government (whichever one that's in power) is scared of upsetting America and we all know how childish Trump and co are if you ever question what they do.
Two things need to happen. Firstly stop selling our assets to them and secondly build our own industries.
I worked for the then third largest company in the UK in the form of I.C.I. after Tiny Rowland tried to buy the company and in order to stop him I.C.I. made terms and conditions to all staff equal to white collar workers the part of the company that was responsible for the largest profits was I.C.I. pharmaceuticals. This was then detached from the main company and became Zeneca. Now AstraZeneca and each division was responsible for making it's own profits. I believe that due to overstretching itself gradually all divisions were sold off. The part I worked for was I.C.I. Autocolor which was sold to PPG Industries (Formerly Pittsburgh Plate Glass) in 1999. The factory had two parts which were split and I.C.I. Paints (Dulux) remained part of I.C.I. into the early 2000's when it too was sold to Akzo Nobel.
It was a great company to work for. Maybe T's & C's were too good ? and something I always said when asked was"About half", the question being how many worked at i.C.I.
Things were very laz in those days, jobs were plentiful, unions had too much of a grip on things and whilst I think there is a place for Unions there needs to be a balance which never seems to happen. Under the Tories bosses gorge themselves on bonuses, shares etc and when Labour is in Unions think there's a never ending stream of higher wages without doing anything for it.
I hope Mr Burnham does get Britain moving. But his backbenchers need a reality check. | | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 10:46 - Jul 28 with 281 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 09:24 - Jul 28 by OldFart71 |
I fear that the main reason for us not getting the tax we should be getting from these big conglomerates is that the government (whichever one that's in power) is scared of upsetting America and we all know how childish Trump and co are if you ever question what they do.
Two things need to happen. Firstly stop selling our assets to them and secondly build our own industries.
I worked for the then third largest company in the UK in the form of I.C.I. after Tiny Rowland tried to buy the company and in order to stop him I.C.I. made terms and conditions to all staff equal to white collar workers the part of the company that was responsible for the largest profits was I.C.I. pharmaceuticals. This was then detached from the main company and became Zeneca. Now AstraZeneca and each division was responsible for making it's own profits. I believe that due to overstretching itself gradually all divisions were sold off. The part I worked for was I.C.I. Autocolor which was sold to PPG Industries (Formerly Pittsburgh Plate Glass) in 1999. The factory had two parts which were split and I.C.I. Paints (Dulux) remained part of I.C.I. into the early 2000's when it too was sold to Akzo Nobel.
It was a great company to work for. Maybe T's & C's were too good ? and something I always said when asked was"About half", the question being how many worked at i.C.I.
Things were very laz in those days, jobs were plentiful, unions had too much of a grip on things and whilst I think there is a place for Unions there needs to be a balance which never seems to happen. Under the Tories bosses gorge themselves on bonuses, shares etc and when Labour is in Unions think there's a never ending stream of higher wages without doing anything for it.
I hope Mr Burnham does get Britain moving. But his backbenchers need a reality check. |
How do you stop a publicly traded company being brought under foreign ownership though, that’s straight out of the Trump playbook of fantasy economics. He brought in tariffs to try and protect domestic industry, because the cost of production is so high (wages, infrastructure etc). All that’s done is pass the cost on to the consumer and eroded everyone’s spending power. We could do the same here if people are prepared to accept even higher cost of living. Under the EU we had some tarrifs to aid European heavy industry, but in many cases state subsidies are illegal, which was part of the unrealistic Lexiteer vision. We also had better protections for workers, which so far haven’t been eroded too badly, but of course could be now if we end up with a populist government. | | | |
| Why oh why do the media and politicians just bang on and on about raising taxes on 10:48 - Jul 28 with 278 views | badadski |
Media and the Tycoons that own majority of media aka the millionaires/billionaires float the ideas to deflect away taxing the 0.1% and instead almost give a green light for extra tax on the working class as it acts as a forewarning and for government to see, oh well public know it might happen so lets just make it happen after all they were warned about it.
I have yet to see a front page headline of lets tax the multi billion pound empires/tycoons. if there has i apologise but don't recall it.
Its all smoke and mirrors between government and media as both use each other as platforms/gateways to the public | | | |
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