| Fair or unfair on 10:54 - Aug 2 with 2740 views | Keno |
I think I would say "debatable" |  |
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| Fair or unfair on 11:15 - Aug 2 with 2667 views | ZXBlue |
Regrettably it is a near impossible subject to dicuss.
On one side there will be rabid bigots making comments about how transgenderism is nonsense, and on the other, rabid bigots who say that any comment or view that does not recognise a transgender woman as a woman in every possible sense and without reservation, is transphobic.
The reality is that regardless of hormone levels, there appears to be a degree of *relative* physical advantage in having undergone male puberty with the increase in bone and muscle mass and size that provides. [Post edited 2 Aug 2021 11:15]
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| Fair or unfair on 11:27 - Aug 2 with 2634 views | Keno |
| Fair or unfair on 11:15 - Aug 2 by ZXBlue |
Regrettably it is a near impossible subject to dicuss.
On one side there will be rabid bigots making comments about how transgenderism is nonsense, and on the other, rabid bigots who say that any comment or view that does not recognise a transgender woman as a woman in every possible sense and without reservation, is transphobic.
The reality is that regardless of hormone levels, there appears to be a degree of *relative* physical advantage in having undergone male puberty with the increase in bone and muscle mass and size that provides. [Post edited 2 Aug 2021 11:15]
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Just leaving this here
https://olympics.com/en/news/semenya-niyonsaba-wambui-what-is-dsd-iaaf-regulatio | |
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| Fair or unfair on 11:28 - Aug 2 with 2630 views | mrshallisfit |
With my beer googles on.......... | | | |
| Fair or unfair on 11:30 - Aug 2 with 2627 views | itfcjoe |
Unfair - there's a reason why those born male and those born female do not compete together and it's because those who have gone through male puberty and all that brings will always have an advantage.
No female has ever come within 10% of the top 1000 males in the world in athletic events.
The fact that the average age for a weightlifter is 23, and Hubbard is 43 tells you enough. Some poor Kiwi woman misses out because the IOC take the ludicrous line that transwomen are women in every circumstance and fail to apply either science or common sense in this case.
Women's sport is a protected category, and the reason is because simply they are not able to compete with men - in the same way children don't compete with adults |  |
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| Fair or unfair on 11:32 - Aug 2 with 2621 views | Butterbing |
I 100% support people's rights to identify as whatever gender/sex they wish.
However, I don't know how I feel about sporting events or any other competition where physical attributes of the gender at birth can give competitive advantage. I'm glad I don't work in the governing bodies that have to decide the rules! |  | | |
| Fair or unfair on 11:32 - Aug 2 with 2618 views | Ryorry |
Excellent article, but re the debate -
"Hubbard and others must take hormone suppressing drugs to reduce their testosterone levels"
""In the first months of transition I put on 10kg," Italian transgender sprinter Valentina Petrillo recently told the BBC. "I can't eat the way I did before. I became anaemic, my haemoglobin is low, I'm always cold, I don't have the same physical strength, my sleep isn't what it was, I have mood swings."
How does that square with sports' international protocols re drugs?
and
Sports scientist Professor Ross Tucker explains some of the other significant changes.
"When human males go through puberty … the heart becomes larger, the lungs become larger, the body fat percentage goes down, and the skeleton changes," he said.
"The collection of those things creates significant performance advantages [between men and women]. Those differences are between 10-12% in swimming and cycling.
"Then you get to sports like weightlifting, which involve upper body muscle strength, where the differences are even bigger. We're talking 30-40%"
No problem whatsoever with any individuals' feelings & rights to transition in life generally - but in competitive sport where physique & early development in that are key, I do think that's unfair advantage. |  |
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| Fair or unfair on 11:41 - Aug 2 with 2600 views | MerseyBlue |
To me it does seem unfair. With that said, the athlete in question has had to work under a lot of restrictions and regulations in order to be eligible to compete, so it's not as simple as it could be made out to be.
Unfortunately, there is so much venom on either side of the debate that it is hard to have a reasoned debate about it. I support trans rights and empathise with the stigma trans people suffer every day, but I don't have a satisfying take on this. It doesn't bother me, but then I'm not directly impacted by it. On the flip side, I would imagine that I would feel differently if I came second to Hubbard. |  |
| "Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." | | Poll: | Who will be the winner? |
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| Fair or unfair on 11:45 - Aug 2 with 2584 views | itfcjoe |
The thing that is stupid about this is it only bans women with this gene for events that they have previously done and there is evidence for it.
So Christine Mboma is banned from running the 400m, as has previously done so because she has an advantage by being DSD......but can run the 200m as it's never been officially tested that someone who is DSD has had an advantage in that event. But now she is running it, no doubt by the next Olympics that will be added to the event list that people can't run!
It must be incredibly difficult for people like Semenya, who have effectively been born as intersex, and now can't compete despite dedicating their whole lifes towards it | |
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| Fair or unfair on 11:49 - Aug 2 with 2555 views | WD19 |
Scrupulously fair would be to have only one category for all genders to compete against each other. |  | | |
| Of course a cynic would say that.... on 12:15 - Aug 2 with 2485 views | Bloots |
| Fair or unfair on 11:45 - Aug 2 by itfcjoe |
The thing that is stupid about this is it only bans women with this gene for events that they have previously done and there is evidence for it.
So Christine Mboma is banned from running the 400m, as has previously done so because she has an advantage by being DSD......but can run the 200m as it's never been officially tested that someone who is DSD has had an advantage in that event. But now she is running it, no doubt by the next Olympics that will be added to the event list that people can't run!
It must be incredibly difficult for people like Semenya, who have effectively been born as intersex, and now can't compete despite dedicating their whole lifes towards it |
...would Semenya have dedicated her whole life to the sport if she hadn't been born "intersex"?
Were her early forays into competitive running against girls/women and her inevitable victories what spurred her on?
Obviously impossible to say, but I suspect it had a bearing. |  |
| "The sooner he comes back the better, this place has been a disaster without him" - TWTD User (July 2025) |
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| Fair or unfair on 12:17 - Aug 2 with 2474 views | ZXBlue |
| Fair or unfair on 11:49 - Aug 2 by WD19 |
Scrupulously fair would be to have only one category for all genders to compete against each other. |
It clearly wouldn't. | | | |
| Of course a cynic would say that.... on 12:50 - Aug 2 with 2426 views | itfcjoe |
| Of course a cynic would say that.... on 12:15 - Aug 2 by Bloots |
...would Semenya have dedicated her whole life to the sport if she hadn't been born "intersex"?
Were her early forays into competitive running against girls/women and her inevitable victories what spurred her on?
Obviously impossible to say, but I suspect it had a bearing. |
It's difficult, but whilst she was/is intersex, she was a girl - without being too biological I'm pretty sure the DSD athletes differ from what is inside them rather than on the outside (testes rather than ovaries) which wouldn't have become fully known and understood until she was already competing as a woman.
In the 2016 Olympics in the 800m all 3 women on the podium were DSD athletes which is crazy when you just look at the sheer numbers - but it's just seemingly unfair for them as they effectively can't compete in anything, and have effectively never been able to. | |
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| Fair or unfair on 13:12 - Aug 2 with 2358 views | RamRob |
| Fair or unfair on 11:41 - Aug 2 by MerseyBlue |
To me it does seem unfair. With that said, the athlete in question has had to work under a lot of restrictions and regulations in order to be eligible to compete, so it's not as simple as it could be made out to be.
Unfortunately, there is so much venom on either side of the debate that it is hard to have a reasoned debate about it. I support trans rights and empathise with the stigma trans people suffer every day, but I don't have a satisfying take on this. It doesn't bother me, but then I'm not directly impacted by it. On the flip side, I would imagine that I would feel differently if I came second to Hubbard. |
They are perfectly able to continue competing in the male competition as they did before starting transition. So the question of motive for competing in the women's comp has to raised. |  |
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| Fair or unfair on 13:26 - Aug 2 with 2307 views | ZXBlue |
| Fair or unfair on 13:12 - Aug 2 by RamRob |
They are perfectly able to continue competing in the male competition as they did before starting transition. So the question of motive for competing in the women's comp has to raised. |
It really doesn't.
Why would someone who considers themselves a woman want to compete with me? Why should that person be disadvantaged by the much reduced testosterone levels (assuming some level fo transition has taken place)? | | | |
| Fair or unfair on 13:35 - Aug 2 with 2279 views | RamRob |
| Fair or unfair on 13:26 - Aug 2 by ZXBlue |
It really doesn't.
Why would someone who considers themselves a woman want to compete with me? Why should that person be disadvantaged by the much reduced testosterone levels (assuming some level fo transition has taken place)? |
It does need to be raised. Rightly or wrongly. If it was just about competing it shouldn't matter whether they are lifting weights in the men's or women's. If it's about having a better chance of winning then we can rightly question it. If those questions can be answered with acceptable conditions i.e. the lowering of testosterone to an acceptable level in relation to competitors born as women, then yes that's fine for them to compete. I wouldnt want to live in a world where you're not allowed to question something [Post edited 2 Aug 2021 13:36]
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| Fair or unfair on 13:52 - Aug 2 with 2214 views | HARRY10 |
Excellent posts - well reasoned and very informative | | | |
| Fair or unfair on 13:55 - Aug 2 with 2208 views | Wallingford_Boy |
She has a superb snatch. |  |
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| Fair or unfair on 14:07 - Aug 2 with 2167 views | Durovigutum |
| Fair or unfair on 13:35 - Aug 2 by RamRob |
It does need to be raised. Rightly or wrongly. If it was just about competing it shouldn't matter whether they are lifting weights in the men's or women's. If it's about having a better chance of winning then we can rightly question it. If those questions can be answered with acceptable conditions i.e. the lowering of testosterone to an acceptable level in relation to competitors born as women, then yes that's fine for them to compete. I wouldnt want to live in a world where you're not allowed to question something [Post edited 2 Aug 2021 13:36]
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I can't believe this debate takes up so much airtime when we're talking about 0.3% of the population. Hundreds of millions of displaced refugees, people so desperate they get in a dingy to cross the Med or Channel, people relying on Foodbanks, but we have this debate instead.
It's the ultimate first world problem, change the competition rules to indicate categories as sex at birth and accept that if you wish to continue competing you have to sacrifice something.
It's also notable how, again, it is biological women getting undermined in this "debate". 49% of the population being ignored or called names if they dare have an opinion. |  | | |
| Fair or unfair on 14:29 - Aug 2 with 2126 views | azuremerlangus |
Whether crossply or radial all tyres are equal in my eyes, but I could never trust a remould… |  |
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| Fair or unfair on 14:47 - Aug 2 with 2073 views | WD19 |
And she now knows where to find a jerk if she needs one…. | | | |
| Fair or unfair on 14:52 - Aug 2 with 2057 views | chicoazul |
RyanGoslingtryingnottolaugh.gif |  |
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| Fair or unfair on 15:01 - Aug 2 with 2028 views | bluelagos |
Obviously a difficult topic to discuss (as others have pointed out) without possibly upsetting someone.
On the face of it, good to have a transgender athlete compete, albeit if there was one area that it would seem unfair, it would be a man transitioning to a women and then competing in a strength discipline, as weight lifting it.
But, as I understand it, the governing body (for weightlifting) has ruled there is no advantage (think I read they have tested her hormone levels which are now on a par with other females) so that's all good. Can't see how people can object of the sports governors are happy.
The athlete in question has also failed in the first round failing to lift any of her 3 attempts, which is almost a good thing in that she has competed without actually opening a huge and divisive (and possibly trans-phobic) debate that would have followed had she won. |  |
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| Fair or unfair on 15:10 - Aug 2 with 2006 views | chicoazul |
To answer OP the answer of course is to have a Trans Olympics with separate categories for trans men and trans women. | |
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| Fair or unfair on 15:13 - Aug 2 with 1993 views | JakeITFC |
| Fair or unfair on 15:10 - Aug 2 by chicoazul |
To answer OP the answer of course is to have a Trans Olympics with separate categories for trans men and trans women. |
Feels like that would literally be othering. |  | | |
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