| Poorer pensioners? 17:10 - Jul 29 with 12465 views | DJR |
From the Guardian.
"Reeves says pensioners not in receipt of pension credit will no longer get the winter fuel payment.
That means it will only go to poorer pensioners."
I can understand the simplicity of tying it to pension credit, but there are a lot of pensioners just above the pension credit limit who are poor and rely on the winter fuel payment to heat their homes.
My parents--in-law are a case in point. They are just above the pension credit limit so miss out on a whole range of benefits etc which make pensioners on pension credit much better off than them. And they will be even more so if my parents-in-law lose the two winter fuel payments they get.
And because they don't have enough money to survive more generally, especially when unexpected bills come along, they rely heavily on us to help them get by. A stair lift, no cheap option, is just one example. [Post edited 29 Jul 2024 17:13]
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:15 - Jul 29 with 6767 views | Bloots |
....is in the same position.
He lives alone and gets an old work pension that just takes him above the limit.
I already sneak money into his bank account without him knowing, now I'll have to add a bit more to stop him freezing over the winter. |  |
| "The sooner he comes back the better, this place has been a disaster without him" - TWTD User (July 2025) |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:18 - Jul 29 with 6726 views | DJR |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:15 - Jul 29 by Bloots |
....is in the same position.
He lives alone and gets an old work pension that just takes him above the limit.
I already sneak money into his bank account without him knowing, now I'll have to add a bit more to stop him freezing over the winter. |
My parents-in-law only get the state pension but SERPs boosts it enough to exceed the pension credit limit. [Post edited 29 Jul 2024 17:18]
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| Poorer pensioners? on 17:22 - Jul 29 with 6685 views | Buhrer |
It wouldn't happen in Paris. |  | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 17:27 - Jul 29 with 6645 views | GlasgowBlue |
Their loss is the junior doctors gain. |  |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:43 - Jul 29 with 6570 views | blueden60 |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:15 - Jul 29 by Bloots |
....is in the same position.
He lives alone and gets an old work pension that just takes him above the limit.
I already sneak money into his bank account without him knowing, now I'll have to add a bit more to stop him freezing over the winter. |
Exactly the same position as I am in. Disgusted by this! |  | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 17:47 - Jul 29 with 6530 views | factual_blue |
It's a pity that the idea of tapering benefits has fallen by the wayside. Perfectly possible to reduce something like the WFP gradually as income gets further away from Pension Credit level. But the admin cost is probably seen as prohibitive, as it either has to be done clerically, or very expensive computer programme rewrites would be needed. |  |
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| Poorer pensioners? on 17:48 - Jul 29 with 6526 views | Bruin56 |
Surely the state pension should be the same as the national minimum wage , if that’s the minimum people can live on why should it be less for pensioners,but it should also be means tested so if you have a large private income the state pension you receive is less or maybe the total income is just taxed I know it’s difficult but it would stop those just over the threshold from being worse off | | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 17:54 - Jul 29 with 6479 views | blueasfook |
| Poorer pensioners? on 17:27 - Jul 29 by GlasgowBlue |
Their loss is the junior doctors gain. |
Oh well at least they'll be better paid when treating all those poor old folk suffering from hypothermia |  |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:59 - Jul 29 with 6422 views | DJR |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:43 - Jul 29 by blueden60 |
Exactly the same position as I am in. Disgusted by this! |
It's reducing the income of some fairly poor pensioners which seems extraordinary to me, and not something a Labour government should be doing, especially given the susceptibility of pensioners to the cold.
The winter fuel payment is tax free, so if they were going to do something about it, why not make it taxable instead, although that wouldn't raise quite as much money?
And if they can't do something that is fair, they shouldn't be doing it at all. [Post edited 29 Jul 2024 18:01]
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| Poorer pensioners? on 18:03 - Jul 29 with 6383 views | EdwardStone |
| Poorer pensioners? on 17:47 - Jul 29 by factual_blue |
It's a pity that the idea of tapering benefits has fallen by the wayside. Perfectly possible to reduce something like the WFP gradually as income gets further away from Pension Credit level. But the admin cost is probably seen as prohibitive, as it either has to be done clerically, or very expensive computer programme rewrites would be needed. |
A wise man once told me
Taxes and benefits can be simple, and therefore cheap, to administer
Or they can be fair
Sadly, they cannot be both |  | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 18:04 - Jul 29 with 6376 views | DJR |
| Poorer pensioners? on 17:47 - Jul 29 by factual_blue |
It's a pity that the idea of tapering benefits has fallen by the wayside. Perfectly possible to reduce something like the WFP gradually as income gets further away from Pension Credit level. But the admin cost is probably seen as prohibitive, as it either has to be done clerically, or very expensive computer programme rewrites would be needed. |
The same unfairness happened with child benefit and the high marginal rates on those earning not much above £100,000.
In my view, far better to do something else rather than opting for the easy and unfair option. | | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 18:42 - Jul 29 with 6221 views | Churchman |
| Poorer pensioners? on 17:48 - Jul 29 by Bruin56 |
Surely the state pension should be the same as the national minimum wage , if that’s the minimum people can live on why should it be less for pensioners,but it should also be means tested so if you have a large private income the state pension you receive is less or maybe the total income is just taxed I know it’s difficult but it would stop those just over the threshold from being worse off |
The problem with this is the principle of why should people save into private or company pensions if the state will provide? People who have saved for their pensions will get taxed on them beyond the threshold and even more if state pension is added in. They will also have paid their NI contributions.
If you essentially reduce what they get down to what the state will provide anyway, all people will do is divert money they would have saved into something else or blow it away on holidays and 75 inch tv’s etc, potentially.
People need to be encouraged to save for their retirement where possible. The money from all bar the Uber rich goes back into the economy anyway.
As for fuel allowances, I’ve no problem with this either being means tested or pension credits increased. |  | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 18:56 - Jul 29 with 6168 views | DJR |
The first significant Labour fiscal proposal and this is Age UK's take. But apart from those affected, no one will care. The proposal is also unfair because it will disproportionately affect the northern parts of Britain which are that bit colder, and in the main much less prosperous than the South East.
"We strongly oppose the means-testing of Winter Fuel Payment (WFP) because our initial estimate is that as many as two million pensioners who badly need the money to stay warm this winter will not receive it and will be in trouble as a result – yet at the other end of the spectrum well-off older people will scarcely notice the difference – a social injustice.
A big reason for this disastrous outcome is that more than one in three pensioners entitled to Pension Credit, the qualifying benefit for WFP under this proposal, don’t receive it, a proportion that’s been roughly constant for many years. More than 800,000 older people living on very low incomes – under £218.25 a week for single pensioners and under £332.95 for couples – who are already missing out of the Pension Credit they are entitled to get to boost their incomes, will now lose the WFP that helps them to pay their fuel bills.
In addition, there are also about a million pensioners whose weekly incomes are less than £50 per week above the poverty line, who will also be hit hard by the loss of the Payment. Older people in this group often tell us they really struggle financially; the proposed change will make it even harder for them to afford to stay warm when it gets chilly.
Finally, there is a third group who will find it extremely difficult to heat their homes adequately this winter as a result of the proposed change: older people whose incomes are a little higher though still limited, but who live in energy inefficient homes and/or who are seriously unwell and need to keep the thermostat turned up high in order to protect their health." [Post edited 29 Jul 2024 19:49]
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| Poorer pensioners? on 19:15 - Jul 29 with 6087 views | tcblue |
It's mad really, when they could have instead brought in means testing the triple lock and carried on funding this | | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 19:24 - Jul 29 with 6033 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Poorer pensioners? on 17:48 - Jul 29 by Bruin56 |
Surely the state pension should be the same as the national minimum wage , if that’s the minimum people can live on why should it be less for pensioners,but it should also be means tested so if you have a large private income the state pension you receive is less or maybe the total income is just taxed I know it’s difficult but it would stop those just over the threshold from being worse off |
That would result in a minefield. People would rightly (from an ethical point of view) want their NI contributions returned if they were under the impression they were to receive a state pension and then denied. |  |
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| Poorer pensioners? on 19:57 - Jul 29 with 5935 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Poorer pensioners? on 19:15 - Jul 29 by tcblue |
It's mad really, when they could have instead brought in means testing the triple lock and carried on funding this |
To a degree pensions, by not being wholly tax free are already means tested.
Any pensioner. Who pays income tax automatically sees 20% of any increased clawed back by income tax.
It is a long wait three month wait until budget day. Hopefully the treasury will be handing back some of money taken by today’s announcements.
I’m a little sceptical of the maths announced today. Over £9b of the unfinanced expenditure seems to relate to recommended increase for those in public service since it appears the government will approve whatever pay rise the review bodies make. It isn’t a budgeted cost until it is payable.
Looking ahead it seems certain that the payroll sector of the triple lock will lead to pensions being increased next April by over 5%, that another big chunk of money to find.
Wonder how many more Labour MPs will lose the whip come any vote on Winter Fuel Payments.
PS surprised the £10 Christmas bonus for pensioners has survived. |  |
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| Poorer pensioners? on 20:02 - Jul 29 with 5900 views | DJR |
| Poorer pensioners? on 19:57 - Jul 29 by Pinewoodblue |
To a degree pensions, by not being wholly tax free are already means tested.
Any pensioner. Who pays income tax automatically sees 20% of any increased clawed back by income tax.
It is a long wait three month wait until budget day. Hopefully the treasury will be handing back some of money taken by today’s announcements.
I’m a little sceptical of the maths announced today. Over £9b of the unfinanced expenditure seems to relate to recommended increase for those in public service since it appears the government will approve whatever pay rise the review bodies make. It isn’t a budgeted cost until it is payable.
Looking ahead it seems certain that the payroll sector of the triple lock will lead to pensions being increased next April by over 5%, that another big chunk of money to find.
Wonder how many more Labour MPs will lose the whip come any vote on Winter Fuel Payments.
PS surprised the £10 Christmas bonus for pensioners has survived. |
Your scepticism is justified.
EDIT: and this Tweet from Paul Johnson of the IFS confirms it.
“1 Last govt left public finances in bad state; 2 it does appear that funding for eg asylum was not provided but 3 c. half of spending ‘hole’ is public pay over which govt made a choice and where pressures were known; and 4 overall challenge for spending was known and remains.” [Post edited 29 Jul 2024 20:06]
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| Poorer pensioners? on 20:05 - Jul 29 with 5879 views | Bruin56 |
| Poorer pensioners? on 18:42 - Jul 29 by Churchman |
The problem with this is the principle of why should people save into private or company pensions if the state will provide? People who have saved for their pensions will get taxed on them beyond the threshold and even more if state pension is added in. They will also have paid their NI contributions.
If you essentially reduce what they get down to what the state will provide anyway, all people will do is divert money they would have saved into something else or blow it away on holidays and 75 inch tv’s etc, potentially.
People need to be encouraged to save for their retirement where possible. The money from all bar the Uber rich goes back into the economy anyway.
As for fuel allowances, I’ve no problem with this either being means tested or pension credits increased. |
I absolutely agree with you with your point about people not bothering to save if the state the pension is higher but a lot of people can’t afford a private pension or put of getting one until tomorrow I think it would be better for everyone to be able to put more into there state pension with incentives to do and making private pensions funds less attractive there by making the cake bigger for everyone it’s a real problem that is only going to get worse | | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 20:07 - Jul 29 with 5859 views | pointofblue |
For all the hope of Labour... really does look like they may just be competent Tories.
Can't say some didn't try and warn us. | |
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| Poorer pensioners? on 20:38 - Jul 29 with 5796 views | BlueForYou |
Having just retired, it's not a good look & very disappointing from Labour. It's like hitting those who can't fight back. I think pensioners tax allowance should be raised significantly which would take those of us with a meagre private pension on top of state pension out of paying tax. |  | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 20:50 - Jul 29 with 5755 views | quirkie |
Exactly the same position as you, my partners mother lives on here own and just above the limit to qualify for pension credit.
The £300 fuel payment comes in handy each year.
Utterly shameful decision by Labour this one, blame Tories all you like but Labour made this decision. There are other ways to raise that £1.4 billion. Reverse the NI cuts, I'd be happy paying the rate it was at before the Tories cut it. So you go against an election pledge, so what, all governments do it anyway, nobody actually believes these election pledges.
It's almost as though Labour want the Tories back in again in 5 years. |  |
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| Poorer pensioners? on 20:56 - Jul 29 with 5709 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Poorer pensioners? on 20:38 - Jul 29 by BlueForYou |
Having just retired, it's not a good look & very disappointing from Labour. It's like hitting those who can't fight back. I think pensioners tax allowance should be raised significantly which would take those of us with a meagre private pension on top of state pension out of paying tax. |
The burden should be carried by those in a position to pay their fair share.
Let’s see if Labour cap MP’s expenses and remove heating costs on homes covered under approved expenses. Also an announcement that MPs salaries are frozen for as long as tax allowances are frozen. Not going to happen is it.
Poorly disguised Tories the lot of em. | |
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| Poorer pensioners? on 20:58 - Jul 29 with 5692 views | Buhrer |
| Poorer pensioners? on 20:50 - Jul 29 by quirkie |
Exactly the same position as you, my partners mother lives on here own and just above the limit to qualify for pension credit.
The £300 fuel payment comes in handy each year.
Utterly shameful decision by Labour this one, blame Tories all you like but Labour made this decision. There are other ways to raise that £1.4 billion. Reverse the NI cuts, I'd be happy paying the rate it was at before the Tories cut it. So you go against an election pledge, so what, all governments do it anyway, nobody actually believes these election pledges.
It's almost as though Labour want the Tories back in again in 5 years. |
Sorry, I don't want to pay more taxes to give British pounds to foreign shareholders for the electric bills of people that have an income above the rate of means tested benefits just because it "comes in handy".. | | | |
| Poorer pensioners? on 21:04 - Jul 29 with 5652 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Ahh but just wait til they get elected.......
......oh!! |  |
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| Yep, my old fella.... on 21:07 - Jul 29 with 5636 views | mutters |
| Yep, my old fella.... on 17:15 - Jul 29 by Bloots |
....is in the same position.
He lives alone and gets an old work pension that just takes him above the limit.
I already sneak money into his bank account without him knowing, now I'll have to add a bit more to stop him freezing over the winter. |
Same here. If you are on the borderline of qualifying then this will leave you worse off. |  |
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