| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live 10:37 - May 9 with 62302 views | itfcjoe |
These things are just mad, he's made a mistake, deleted the offending tweet as soon as pointed out to him and offered a full apology instantly and explained he wasn't aware.
I'd hate to be in the public eye in anyway, must be torturous |  |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:24 - May 9 with 4368 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:20 - May 9 by itfcjoe |
This was in the late 90s |
I can offer a slightly tangential story- though not my own embarrassment.
Punch Drunk FC playing at the annual tournament in Leeds. We played a very northern team (cant recall which one) and they picked a man of the match from our side and presented him with an overtly northern piece of food (as they presumably had to other sides). The player they chose was black. The food item was a whopping great black pudding. At this point everyone was looking at each other and the whole thing took on connotations which clearly hadnt been intended when they decided to present black puddings as MOM prizes.
On the logic of some in this thread, the presentation of that prize was a racist act because of hte context.
It wasnt one.
That said, some of the obvious crass jokes which followed almost certainly were... |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:25 - May 9 with 4358 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 18:59 - May 9 by lowhouseblue |
i wouldn't believe that story from anyone else. |
You don't believe anyone else can say the wrong thing? |  |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:28 - May 9 with 4350 views | SpruceMoose |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:17 - May 9 by sparks |
No- he unintentionally posted something which was construed as racist.
I have no doubt he fully understands and accepts the connotations attached once they were pointed out, but didnt when he posted it.
Mens fecking Rea!
"1.
showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another."
There is nothing in this incident upon which you can rely to conclude that it was born of racism rather than happenstance. |
Jesus fecking Christ we are going round in circles. Your assertion that racism requires intent has already been put to bed. It doesn't. Overt racism, which you describe in your post, is entirely different to implicit racism. If you don't understand why, have a Google.
Committing a racist act does not require intent, and can be done entirely by accident. That appears to be the case here. Danny Baker is not a racist but he accidentally did a racist thing.
He also doesn't deserve to be crucified for it. [Post edited 9 May 2019 19:30]
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:29 - May 9 with 4351 views | TheBoyBlue |
If it was meant as racist, then appalling. I don't know Danny Baker, but he strikes me as a smart, streetwise kind of guy. Surely he would have realised making a racial reference in public would get him in a whole heap of trouble. Which makes me think that it wasn't intentionally racist. And makes this an OTT reaction, especially when he has apologised. |  |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:29 - May 9 with 4330 views | lowhouseblue |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:25 - May 9 by BrixtonBlue |
You don't believe anyone else can say the wrong thing? |
no, i wouldn't believe anyone else could use a phrase like that without ever having realised what the words mean. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:31 - May 9 with 4330 views | SpruceMoose |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:29 - May 9 by lowhouseblue |
no, i wouldn't believe anyone else could use a phrase like that without ever having realised what the words mean. |
Be fair, he could have been born in the 1880s. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:33 - May 9 with 4329 views | SpruceMoose |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:29 - May 9 by TheBoyBlue |
If it was meant as racist, then appalling. I don't know Danny Baker, but he strikes me as a smart, streetwise kind of guy. Surely he would have realised making a racial reference in public would get him in a whole heap of trouble. Which makes me think that it wasn't intentionally racist. And makes this an OTT reaction, especially when he has apologised. |
What is the actual reaction though? A few people waffling about it on a message board? I doubt they are rioting in the streets of the UK about it.
The real reaction is that he has lost his job. That's a private matter between him and his employer. If he feels that was unfair then he can pursue the matter.
Doesn't seem all that OTT in reality. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:34 - May 9 with 4324 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:28 - May 9 by SpruceMoose |
Jesus fecking Christ we are going round in circles. Your assertion that racism requires intent has already been put to bed. It doesn't. Overt racism, which you describe in your post, is entirely different to implicit racism. If you don't understand why, have a Google.
Committing a racist act does not require intent, and can be done entirely by accident. That appears to be the case here. Danny Baker is not a racist but he accidentally did a racist thing.
He also doesn't deserve to be crucified for it. [Post edited 9 May 2019 19:30]
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It requires intent or prejudice / ignorance (which can be unintentional and unwitting). That is however different in quality from doing something born of neither intent nor ignorant prejudice, which one later realises can be construed badly or has connotations you hadn't thought about.
I repeat for the third time, the ace of spades point. Does the context turn something totally unintentional, not born of any prejudice or ignorance, into a racist act?
Because on the information available, that MAY be directly analagous to what Baker did here. You dont appear to be able to see beyond your presuppostion that because of the context it must have been born of some prejudice, even if unwitting. [Post edited 9 May 2019 19:39]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:36 - May 9 with 4321 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:33 - May 9 by SpruceMoose |
What is the actual reaction though? A few people waffling about it on a message board? I doubt they are rioting in the streets of the UK about it.
The real reaction is that he has lost his job. That's a private matter between him and his employer. If he feels that was unfair then he can pursue the matter.
Doesn't seem all that OTT in reality. |
Its a massive thing- because it means we now live in a world where potentially, an entirely accidential thing can be construed as offensive, and someone can lose their job over it because of the social media kick back.
Convicted, punished and humiliated by the kangaroo court that is twitter. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:39 - May 9 with 4301 views | footers |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:36 - May 9 by sparks |
Its a massive thing- because it means we now live in a world where potentially, an entirely accidential thing can be construed as offensive, and someone can lose their job over it because of the social media kick back.
Convicted, punished and humiliated by the kangaroo court that is twitter. |
It wasn't a twitter kangaroo court. He's not some randomer hounded by the tw@tter brigade- he posted what was, contextually, a racist image on the platform to his large audience.
His employer found that unacceptable. It's the BBC, the most boringly compliant company going.
He'll pick up a job elsewhere easy enough. |  |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:40 - May 9 with 4296 views | SpruceMoose |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:34 - May 9 by sparks |
It requires intent or prejudice / ignorance (which can be unintentional and unwitting). That is however different in quality from doing something born of neither intent nor ignorant prejudice, which one later realises can be construed badly or has connotations you hadn't thought about.
I repeat for the third time, the ace of spades point. Does the context turn something totally unintentional, not born of any prejudice or ignorance, into a racist act?
Because on the information available, that MAY be directly analagous to what Baker did here. You dont appear to be able to see beyond your presuppostion that because of the context it must have been born of some prejudice, even if unwitting. [Post edited 9 May 2019 19:39]
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Your point is nonsense because there is no racial context in which a playing card is racist. No more than a black board, or a black bird. Those are just nonsense examples cooked up to muddy the water. Comparing a black person to a chimp however has a long and rich history. You're a clever lad, so I'm sure you know that.
I actually have no idea what your point is. I've already said he isn't racist. And I've explained to you why that doesn't matter. What is it that you want? For me to concede that anyone who thinks this can be rightfully viewed as an unintentionally racist act is wrong? [Post edited 9 May 2019 19:40]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:44 - May 9 with 4278 views | SpruceMoose |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:36 - May 9 by sparks |
Its a massive thing- because it means we now live in a world where potentially, an entirely accidential thing can be construed as offensive, and someone can lose their job over it because of the social media kick back.
Convicted, punished and humiliated by the kangaroo court that is twitter. |
Don't be soft. He posted something up to a large audience of people, and his employer didn't like it. Your last line sounds like the kind of guff Piers Morgan comes out with.
Personally, I'm not too worried, as I'm fairly sure I won't accidentally post a 'hilarious' image online of a chimp and compare it to the baby of a woman of mixed race. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:44 - May 9 with 4275 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:40 - May 9 by SpruceMoose |
Your point is nonsense because there is no racial context in which a playing card is racist. No more than a black board, or a black bird. Those are just nonsense examples cooked up to muddy the water. Comparing a black person to a chimp however has a long and rich history. You're a clever lad, so I'm sure you know that.
I actually have no idea what your point is. I've already said he isn't racist. And I've explained to you why that doesn't matter. What is it that you want? For me to concede that anyone who thinks this can be rightfully viewed as an unintentionally racist act is wrong? [Post edited 9 May 2019 19:40]
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You have smuggled in"comparing a black person to a chimp".
Which is only accurate if it was intended or born of some sort of latent prejudice.
If the comparison was entirely unintentional and made after the event by thirs parties, its just a silly old photo of some posh people with a posh chimp.
Again- I ask whether you say that something with no racist intent, and not born of some ignorant prejudice, can become racist because of the context when that context was completely unintended.
Was the black pudding a racist act? Did it become one because of the MOM chosen? Or was it happenstance? [Post edited 9 May 2019 19:48]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:46 - May 9 with 4272 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:44 - May 9 by SpruceMoose |
Don't be soft. He posted something up to a large audience of people, and his employer didn't like it. Your last line sounds like the kind of guff Piers Morgan comes out with.
Personally, I'm not too worried, as I'm fairly sure I won't accidentally post a 'hilarious' image online of a chimp and compare it to the baby of a woman of mixed race. |
You are far too wed to the assumption that you are right.
Everyone can make a silly mistake. If that mistake is born of prejudice, the consequences should be appropriate to that. If its a genuinely completely unintended silly joke which had not been intended or appreciated to have any racial connotation, surely that is important and oughtnt to lead to job loss.
I am unlikely to post an image of a chimp either. But I do recall being crack clenchingly close to using the stock phrase "black sheep of the family" in the presence of black family members and stopped myself. Had I said it, it would not have been born of prejudice or ignorance or racist intent.
One could argue that that results from an old phrase which in itself may have had racist connotations. The Baker case is a step removed form that- because the picture has NO inherent connotations at all.
The point is simple- if he'd posted it in relation to a child of William and Kate, no one would have batted an eyelid. IF he posted it, with no understanding or realisation that it was in relation to a baby with some mixed racial origin, than the fundamental character of the action is really no worse is it?
When did we stop looking at intent and mental state, and start convicting people of every "ism" possible on a strict liability basis? [Post edited 9 May 2019 19:51]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:51 - May 9 with 4253 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:16 - May 9 by Lord_Lucan |
Fecking hell BB, a Wog box?
Did you have a 20 year sabbatical from planet earth? |
I honestly hadn't thought about them since I was a kid in the 80's, when I imagine I thought it was named that way because of how the booming bass sounded or something. I wasn't aware of any racism when I was a kid, and certainly didn't know "wog" was a derogatory term.
It was only saying the word as an adult that I connected the two. I just happened to say it in front of the worst possible person!
I was on placement at the time, he hired me shortly after, and I worked with him for 6 years. So he obviously wasn't offended and saw it as the simple mistake it was. | |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:53 - May 9 with 4248 views | vapour_trail |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 18:48 - May 9 by BrixtonBlue |
Being racist suggests intent and over several instances. A one-off mistake that is seen by some as a racist act I'd suggest is very different.
I've told the story on here before of how I was describing a script for an ad to a Creative Director... who happens to be one of the few black Creative Directors in British advertising. Anyway, I was describing a guy walking down the street with an 80's boom box on his shoulder, blasting out tunes. Except when I got to it I described it as a "wog box" (what we called it when I was a kid). It was only at that precise moment that I realised what that word meant!
I was horrified, but the CD in question is a good bloke, realised I hadn't realised what the word meant until that moment, and has taken the piss out of me for it ever since.
But does that make me a racist? |
Wog Box. Two words that transform the thread from just the usual suspects turning in ever increasing pompous circles of self righteousness to a bona fide twtd hall of famer.
This guarantees you a place in the end of year awards dollers. |  |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 19:54 - May 9 with 4236 views | BrixtonBlue |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 19:19 - May 9 by SpruceMoose |
Sorry, I'm still chuckling at your refusal to accept that racism doesn't require intent, while saying that implicit racism exists.
You're just confused full stop. |
I think to be a racist requires intent, but implicit/accidental racism does exist. Surely, though, the former is much worse than the latter? | |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:55 - May 9 with 4234 views | footers |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:53 - May 9 by vapour_trail |
Wog Box. Two words that transform the thread from just the usual suspects turning in ever increasing pompous circles of self righteousness to a bona fide twtd hall of famer.
This guarantees you a place in the end of year awards dollers. |
New category needed: Poster most likely to say 'Wog Box' in a real life situation.
Might open the field up somewhat, but Dolly has form. | |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:56 - May 9 with 4233 views | SpruceMoose |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:44 - May 9 by sparks |
You have smuggled in"comparing a black person to a chimp".
Which is only accurate if it was intended or born of some sort of latent prejudice.
If the comparison was entirely unintentional and made after the event by thirs parties, its just a silly old photo of some posh people with a posh chimp.
Again- I ask whether you say that something with no racist intent, and not born of some ignorant prejudice, can become racist because of the context when that context was completely unintended.
Was the black pudding a racist act? Did it become one because of the MOM chosen? Or was it happenstance? [Post edited 9 May 2019 19:48]
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Yes, something with no racist intent, and not born of some ignorant prejudice, can become racist because of the context when that context was completely unintended.
This isn't some obscure trope he's stumbled upon. Everybody knows the reality that images of monkeys have been held up as 'humourous' representations of black people for centuries. If he's posting it online, he has a responsibility for it. Things don't get posted by accident.
I still have no idea what your point is, or what it is that you feel so aggrieved about. This can't be racist, because he didn't intend it to be? Is it really that basic? | |
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:58 - May 9 with 4223 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:56 - May 9 by SpruceMoose |
Yes, something with no racist intent, and not born of some ignorant prejudice, can become racist because of the context when that context was completely unintended.
This isn't some obscure trope he's stumbled upon. Everybody knows the reality that images of monkeys have been held up as 'humourous' representations of black people for centuries. If he's posting it online, he has a responsibility for it. Things don't get posted by accident.
I still have no idea what your point is, or what it is that you feel so aggrieved about. This can't be racist, because he didn't intend it to be? Is it really that basic? |
"Yes, something with no racist intent, and not born of some ignorant prejudice, can become racist because of the context when that context was completely unintended."
Than that is where we fundamentally disagree. (and the dictionary disagrees with you for what its worth).
What is notable though is that your view is still being driven by the assumption that it was "not an accident". I agree if its not an accident, its awful. If it was and accident- then it was an accident. The character of what is done is utterly different, and the consequences ought to be as well.
Saying he has responsibility for it, does not change that. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:01 - May 9 with 4221 views | SpruceMoose |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:46 - May 9 by sparks |
You are far too wed to the assumption that you are right.
Everyone can make a silly mistake. If that mistake is born of prejudice, the consequences should be appropriate to that. If its a genuinely completely unintended silly joke which had not been intended or appreciated to have any racial connotation, surely that is important and oughtnt to lead to job loss.
I am unlikely to post an image of a chimp either. But I do recall being crack clenchingly close to using the stock phrase "black sheep of the family" in the presence of black family members and stopped myself. Had I said it, it would not have been born of prejudice or ignorance or racist intent.
One could argue that that results from an old phrase which in itself may have had racist connotations. The Baker case is a step removed form that- because the picture has NO inherent connotations at all.
The point is simple- if he'd posted it in relation to a child of William and Kate, no one would have batted an eyelid. IF he posted it, with no understanding or realisation that it was in relation to a baby with some mixed racial origin, than the fundamental character of the action is really no worse is it?
When did we stop looking at intent and mental state, and start convicting people of every "ism" possible on a strict liability basis? [Post edited 9 May 2019 19:51]
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Oh Sparks, you yourself live and die by your first statement. You're famous for it. Never once have you considered that you may just not be the foremost authority on everything and anything.
I can't be bothered to try and educate you in the basics of racism any further. If you are sincere in what you are saying, and if you yourself are not wed to the assumption that you are right, then I would genuinely encourage you to do a little reading on the subject with an open mind.
I'll leave you with the straightforward idea, again, that Baker is not a racist, but that does not mean he is unable to accidentally commit a racist act. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:02 - May 9 with 4215 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:29 - May 9 by lowhouseblue |
no, i wouldn't believe anyone else could use a phrase like that without ever having realised what the words mean. |
You've misunderstood. I didn't understand what the word meant when I was a kid... I did later on (obviously) when an adult. But I never used the phrase "wog box" again until that moment (as I was struggling with what to call it) and as the words tumbled out of my mouth I made the connection.
I obviously knew "wog" was offensive... which is why I made the connection. I just happened to speak before my brain caught up! | |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:05 - May 9 with 4207 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:01 - May 9 by SpruceMoose |
Oh Sparks, you yourself live and die by your first statement. You're famous for it. Never once have you considered that you may just not be the foremost authority on everything and anything.
I can't be bothered to try and educate you in the basics of racism any further. If you are sincere in what you are saying, and if you yourself are not wed to the assumption that you are right, then I would genuinely encourage you to do a little reading on the subject with an open mind.
I'll leave you with the straightforward idea, again, that Baker is not a racist, but that does not mean he is unable to accidentally commit a racist act. |
The pomposity in that post is extraordinary.
I again refer you to the black pudding.
I find it remarkable that you really appear to think that an act done with no intent, born of no prejudice can simply become racist through subsequent context, and the perpetrator culpable for a "racist act" rather than a silly oversight. Its a strict liability regime.
I remain of the view that you are swayed in your position by the belief that it was not accidental but was in fact born of prejudice, even if unwitting. It may have been. I cannot see any way of being certain about that at all though. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 20:06 - May 9 with 4198 views | SpruceMoose |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 19:54 - May 9 by BrixtonBlue |
I think to be a racist requires intent, but implicit/accidental racism does exist. Surely, though, the former is much worse than the latter? |
Most definitely. Maybe I haven't explained that well enough.
Some folk might not like this next bit, but everyone has implicit biases, society made us that way. Your boom box story is one example of this. You were never encouraged to question the name you called it, because, within the environment you lived, it wasn't seen as, or intended as, an offensive thing. It was only when you viewed it through another prism that you saw it differently.
We aren't to blame for these biases and shouldn't be punished for them, but everyone does have a duty to examine themselves and to identify what they might be.
That's a world away from overt racism, and I'd be surprised if anyone thought that applied to DB. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 20:14 - May 9 with 4175 views | sparks |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 20:06 - May 9 by SpruceMoose |
Most definitely. Maybe I haven't explained that well enough.
Some folk might not like this next bit, but everyone has implicit biases, society made us that way. Your boom box story is one example of this. You were never encouraged to question the name you called it, because, within the environment you lived, it wasn't seen as, or intended as, an offensive thing. It was only when you viewed it through another prism that you saw it differently.
We aren't to blame for these biases and shouldn't be punished for them, but everyone does have a duty to examine themselves and to identify what they might be.
That's a world away from overt racism, and I'd be surprised if anyone thought that applied to DB. |
I dont think anyone with an ounce of sense disagrees with any of that. Most of us take it as read.
Try another analogy:
I see a piece of work in some demanding professional field. It is full of emotive reactions, vacillation and flights of fancy. I make the comment that it is unprofessional, over emotive, and that the author probably ought to go home and think about a less demadning career if that is their best work.
Subsequently it becomes apparent that the author was female. Is it suddenly a misogynstic comment because it is the type of phrase that is sometimes use, misogynistically, about women? If the author turns out to be gay, does the comment become homophobic because it is attaching historically "female" characterisitcs to a gay man?
It might be an undiplomatic comment, but to hold me guilty (with no evidence of intent or subsconscious prejudioce at play) of an "ism" and to be culpable on that basis, is surely just wrong. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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