| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live 10:37 - May 9 with 62022 views | itfcjoe |
These things are just mad, he's made a mistake, deleted the offending tweet as soon as pointed out to him and offered a full apology instantly and explained he wasn't aware.
I'd hate to be in the public eye in anyway, must be torturous |  |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:15 - May 9 with 2570 views | SpruceMoose |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:05 - May 9 by sparks |
The pomposity in that post is extraordinary.
I again refer you to the black pudding.
I find it remarkable that you really appear to think that an act done with no intent, born of no prejudice can simply become racist through subsequent context, and the perpetrator culpable for a "racist act" rather than a silly oversight. Its a strict liability regime.
I remain of the view that you are swayed in your position by the belief that it was not accidental but was in fact born of prejudice, even if unwitting. It may have been. I cannot see any way of being certain about that at all though. |
You're putting words in my mouth. I find that very disingenuous. I'll concede it may have read as pompous though, you after all are well versed in that so are most likely to recognise it. Maybe you just didn't like it because it was a little too accurate in it's assessment? Like I said, unless you're 100% certain that you are entirely correct here, do some research.
Anyway, back to your twisting of my words. Nowhere have I said it wasn't an accident. I have no doubt that it was an accident. Multiple times I have said that DB isn't a racist. That doesn't mean that what he posted won't, can't and shouldn't be viewed as racist . That's what you seem unable to get over though, and still haven't been able to answer to the contrary.
It's daft to suggest that people can't be accidentally, or unwittingly racist. [Post edited 9 May 2019 20:18]
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:17 - May 9 with 2565 views | BrixtonBlue |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:53 - May 9 by vapour_trail |
Wog Box. Two words that transform the thread from just the usual suspects turning in ever increasing pompous circles of self righteousness to a bona fide twtd hall of famer.
This guarantees you a place in the end of year awards dollers. |
It's not the first time I've mentioned the story on here. |  |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 20:23 - May 9 with 2544 views | SpruceMoose |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 20:14 - May 9 by sparks |
I dont think anyone with an ounce of sense disagrees with any of that. Most of us take it as read.
Try another analogy:
I see a piece of work in some demanding professional field. It is full of emotive reactions, vacillation and flights of fancy. I make the comment that it is unprofessional, over emotive, and that the author probably ought to go home and think about a less demadning career if that is their best work.
Subsequently it becomes apparent that the author was female. Is it suddenly a misogynstic comment because it is the type of phrase that is sometimes use, misogynistically, about women? If the author turns out to be gay, does the comment become homophobic because it is attaching historically "female" characterisitcs to a gay man?
It might be an undiplomatic comment, but to hold me guilty (with no evidence of intent or subsconscious prejudioce at play) of an "ism" and to be culpable on that basis, is surely just wrong. |
Surely you would have a responsibility to know the context in which you are using those words, and who you are saying them to? Seems rather lacking in personal responsibility to say 'oh i didn't know it could sound misogynistic to describe a woman as over emotive!' That argument relies on the assumption that you are completely oblivious to the idea that women are often referred to in this way in the work place, certainly far more frequently than men are.
This holds up by the fact that even you you knew it was so common place, that you decided to use it in your example.
So yes, I wouldn't be surprised, and neither should you be, if people were to question your motivations for describing a woman that way.
[Post edited 9 May 2019 20:24]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:28 - May 9 with 2534 views | giant_stow |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 19:25 - May 9 by BrixtonBlue |
You don't believe anyone else can say the wrong thing? |
Don't take it to heart Mr - think these are at least semi fond slaps!? |  |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:31 - May 9 with 2530 views | SpruceMoose |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:28 - May 9 by giant_stow |
Don't take it to heart Mr - think these are at least semi fond slaps!? |
Just to be clear, I don't think Dolly is a racist.
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:33 - May 9 with 2528 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:15 - May 9 by SpruceMoose |
You're putting words in my mouth. I find that very disingenuous. I'll concede it may have read as pompous though, you after all are well versed in that so are most likely to recognise it. Maybe you just didn't like it because it was a little too accurate in it's assessment? Like I said, unless you're 100% certain that you are entirely correct here, do some research.
Anyway, back to your twisting of my words. Nowhere have I said it wasn't an accident. I have no doubt that it was an accident. Multiple times I have said that DB isn't a racist. That doesn't mean that what he posted won't, can't and shouldn't be viewed as racist . That's what you seem unable to get over though, and still haven't been able to answer to the contrary.
It's daft to suggest that people can't be accidentally, or unwittingly racist. [Post edited 9 May 2019 20:18]
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You said that things are not posted by accident. I have not twisted your words. I have read them, and I strongly suspect that your position is driven by your lurking presupposition that it was not an accident. I may be wrong- but thats my suspicion.
Its daft to say that something done with no racist intent, no prejudice, no ignorance, no malice, can suddenly become racist because of the context which was not apparent to the perpetrator at the time.
I havent said that you say DB is racist. I do take the view that you cannot reasonably assume what may well be entirely unintentional and born of happenstance rather than any lurking prejudice or ignorance, is racist.
Its perhaps a semantic point- but you seem entirely unwilling to recognise the qualitative differnece between something done with intent / latent prejudice, and something which because of entirely unappreciated context can suddenly be construed as offensive.
Which is what leads me to the suspicion outlined above... |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:36 - May 9 with 2521 views | olimar |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 13:04 - May 9 by SE1blue |
I think the post was incredibly naive and crass and I’m not sure where it’s meant to be ‘funny’. You can totally see why it’s caused offence under the circumstances and I think he definitely needs to be reprimanded.
However, my only thought is can we approach this kind of instance differently for the betterment of society.
Surely, in this situation, we should be educating and making it clear why it’s unacceptable. A man with an exemplary record (when it comes to racism) loses his job for one (idiotic) tweet - I’m not sure that’s right either.
The outcome of this is two polar opposite opinions; one that believes he’s a racist and the other that says it was just a joke. But I it feels like there’s an opportunity to correct this and a chance to evolve being missed. |
I think thats what is happening anyway though, isnt it?
DB has clearly been advised of the context, quickly understood the point, corrected it, apologised.
He has also subsequently explained why he didnt realise it was unacceptable and why he can see why it was.
I think the lesson is pretty good at this point for anyone who has read the story. |  | | |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:37 - May 9 with 2516 views | olimar |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:36 - May 9 by olimar |
I think thats what is happening anyway though, isnt it?
DB has clearly been advised of the context, quickly understood the point, corrected it, apologised.
He has also subsequently explained why he didnt realise it was unacceptable and why he can see why it was.
I think the lesson is pretty good at this point for anyone who has read the story. |
Just to add, I totally agree with your point original point btw! | | | |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:46 - May 9 with 2498 views | SpruceMoose |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:33 - May 9 by sparks |
You said that things are not posted by accident. I have not twisted your words. I have read them, and I strongly suspect that your position is driven by your lurking presupposition that it was not an accident. I may be wrong- but thats my suspicion.
Its daft to say that something done with no racist intent, no prejudice, no ignorance, no malice, can suddenly become racist because of the context which was not apparent to the perpetrator at the time.
I havent said that you say DB is racist. I do take the view that you cannot reasonably assume what may well be entirely unintentional and born of happenstance rather than any lurking prejudice or ignorance, is racist.
Its perhaps a semantic point- but you seem entirely unwilling to recognise the qualitative differnece between something done with intent / latent prejudice, and something which because of entirely unappreciated context can suddenly be construed as offensive.
Which is what leads me to the suspicion outlined above... |
"Its daft to say that something done with no racist intent, no prejudice, no ignorance, no malice, can suddenly become racist because of the context which was not apparent to the perpetrator at the time. "
Your position absolves the person broadcasting their views of all responsibility. I'm sorry, I think people should be accountable for the things they say and do, and should maybe have a little think about it before they open their mouths. "I'm sorry I said that thing, I didn't consider that you would be upset' is a weak kind of defense at, but ultimately it would be up to the person the remark was directed at to decide if it was a reasonable defense.
[Post edited 9 May 2019 20:47]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:15 - May 9 with 2452 views | JakeITFC |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:33 - May 9 by sparks |
You said that things are not posted by accident. I have not twisted your words. I have read them, and I strongly suspect that your position is driven by your lurking presupposition that it was not an accident. I may be wrong- but thats my suspicion.
Its daft to say that something done with no racist intent, no prejudice, no ignorance, no malice, can suddenly become racist because of the context which was not apparent to the perpetrator at the time.
I havent said that you say DB is racist. I do take the view that you cannot reasonably assume what may well be entirely unintentional and born of happenstance rather than any lurking prejudice or ignorance, is racist.
Its perhaps a semantic point- but you seem entirely unwilling to recognise the qualitative differnece between something done with intent / latent prejudice, and something which because of entirely unappreciated context can suddenly be construed as offensive.
Which is what leads me to the suspicion outlined above... |
Associating the child of a black woman with a primate is always going to be racist, regardless of context.
Baker of course realised that as soon as the connection was made, which is why he deleted it. |  | | |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:20 - May 9 with 2436 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:46 - May 9 by SpruceMoose |
"Its daft to say that something done with no racist intent, no prejudice, no ignorance, no malice, can suddenly become racist because of the context which was not apparent to the perpetrator at the time. "
Your position absolves the person broadcasting their views of all responsibility. I'm sorry, I think people should be accountable for the things they say and do, and should maybe have a little think about it before they open their mouths. "I'm sorry I said that thing, I didn't consider that you would be upset' is a weak kind of defense at, but ultimately it would be up to the person the remark was directed at to decide if it was a reasonable defense.
[Post edited 9 May 2019 20:47]
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It does nothing of the sort. It says that tehre is a qualitative difference between a racist act and a mistake that causes entirely unintended offence. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:21 - May 9 with 2430 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:15 - May 9 by JakeITFC |
Associating the child of a black woman with a primate is always going to be racist, regardless of context.
Baker of course realised that as soon as the connection was made, which is why he deleted it. |
No- it really isnt. Because if its entirely unintentional, there is no prejudice, discrimination, malice, bigotry or anything else in it.
There may be a lack of thought, even stupidity not to realise the connotation, but it IS different. [Post edited 9 May 2019 21:33]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:23 - May 9 with 2422 views | WD19 |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 20:46 - May 9 by SpruceMoose |
"Its daft to say that something done with no racist intent, no prejudice, no ignorance, no malice, can suddenly become racist because of the context which was not apparent to the perpetrator at the time. "
Your position absolves the person broadcasting their views of all responsibility. I'm sorry, I think people should be accountable for the things they say and do, and should maybe have a little think about it before they open their mouths. "I'm sorry I said that thing, I didn't consider that you would be upset' is a weak kind of defense at, but ultimately it would be up to the person the remark was directed at to decide if it was a reasonable defense.
[Post edited 9 May 2019 20:47]
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Some things are just completely and utterly inexcusable.
.....your spelling, for example. |  | | |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:38 - May 9 with 2355 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:35 - May 9 by JakeITFC |
I personally don’t think he has a racist bone in his body.
That doesn’t mean that it’s ok to post he did, because it was racist.
Being ignorant is not an excuse. |
No one disagrees with that. The point here is, that if you take what he says at face value, it wasn't racist / prejudiced ignorance. Just a completely innocent thing in which he didnt realise that there was a connotation to be wary of.
However, he is then tarred with "racist post" regardless of intent, and punished accordingly. [Post edited 9 May 2019 21:42]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:42 - May 9 with 2334 views | J2BLUE |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:35 - May 9 by JakeITFC |
I personally don’t think he has a racist bone in his body.
That doesn’t mean that it’s ok to post he did, because it was racist.
Being ignorant is not an excuse. |
I disagree. It needs intent to be racist IMO.
Did you ever use eeny, meeny, miny, moe in the playground to decide who is it? When I was a kid it was catch a tiger by its toe. Tiger was all I ever knew. I was surprised years later on here to learn there was another version of that. People cannot be expected to know everything and I don't think you can inject racism into something where no racism was intended. If it happened to you i'm sure you would be the first swearing you are not racist.
Can you really say there is no chance he saw the baby and posted that image without thinking back two generations to Meghan's mum? If so you have to admit it could be a simple mistake. I don't think it helps anyone to pretend this is a racist incident. [Post edited 9 May 2019 21:43]
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:45 - May 9 with 2317 views | manchego |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:15 - May 9 by JakeITFC |
Associating the child of a black woman with a primate is always going to be racist, regardless of context.
Baker of course realised that as soon as the connection was made, which is why he deleted it. |
You just contradicted yourself there.
1. He associated baby with monkey.
2. He didn't make the association but others did so he reacted.
Pick one. |  | | |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:46 - May 9 with 2316 views | JakeITFC |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:38 - May 9 by sparks |
No one disagrees with that. The point here is, that if you take what he says at face value, it wasn't racist / prejudiced ignorance. Just a completely innocent thing in which he didnt realise that there was a connotation to be wary of.
However, he is then tarred with "racist post" regardless of intent, and punished accordingly. [Post edited 9 May 2019 21:42]
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But that is because it is bad to do or say racist things and it is right to call them out (even if they are from a position of ignorance).
In my mind, his quick realisation, apology and subsequent (hopefully) second of pause or research before posting something like this again is a good enough outcome and I don’t like the fact that twitter storms cause people to lose their jobs, but the point still stands imo. | | | |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:46 - May 9 with 2314 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:43 - May 9 by footers |
Sorry, I know I'm not meant to contact you now, but your last line is indicative of the problem.
You do not understand racism because you have never been affected by it.
Racism is a pervasive structural, social and cultural issue. Subliminal racism is a thing. Certain words, phrases, images and tropes are embedded into what is already a racist culture and by continuing to use those words you are perpetuating that racist culture.
We condition language and we are conditioned by it. Language and ideas are democratic; they only move if we move them.
If we want future generations to be more tolerant and understanding we should be pointing out these things and why they may be construed as racist. |
The idea that anyone who is not black cannot understand racism is very obviously fallacious. As is the idea that a black person identifying something racist is more valid than someone else doing so.
It may be so. And certainly there is an element of insight, on average, which factors into the equation. But... | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:46 - May 9 with 2310 views | J2BLUE |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:43 - May 9 by footers |
Sorry, I know I'm not meant to contact you now, but your last line is indicative of the problem.
You do not understand racism because you have never been affected by it.
Racism is a pervasive structural, social and cultural issue. Subliminal racism is a thing. Certain words, phrases, images and tropes are embedded into what is already a racist culture and by continuing to use those words you are perpetuating that racist culture.
We condition language and we are conditioned by it. Language and ideas are democratic; they only move if we move them.
If we want future generations to be more tolerant and understanding we should be pointing out these things and why they may be construed as racist. |
If we want future generations to be more tolerant and understanding we should be pointing out these things and why they may be construed as racist.
By all means point out why it 'may be construed as racist'. I don't think that is the same as stating factually that this WAS racist. | |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:48 - May 9 with 2303 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:45 - May 9 by manchego |
You just contradicted yourself there.
1. He associated baby with monkey.
2. He didn't make the association but others did so he reacted.
Pick one. |
Disingenous.
He associated royal baby with posh monkey in an old photo.
He did not knowingly or intentionally, he says, associate posh monkey in old photo with a mixed race baby. So both positions are valid. No need to choose. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:49 - May 9 with 2297 views | sparks |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:46 - May 9 by J2BLUE |
If we want future generations to be more tolerant and understanding we should be pointing out these things and why they may be construed as racist.
By all means point out why it 'may be construed as racist'. I don't think that is the same as stating factually that this WAS racist. |
Indeed. And convicting people of "isms" for innocent errors will increase divides and simply plays into the hands of the "you cant say anything now" brigade. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:51 - May 9 with 2279 views | footers |
| Danny Baker sacked from 5 Live on 21:46 - May 9 by J2BLUE |
If we want future generations to be more tolerant and understanding we should be pointing out these things and why they may be construed as racist.
By all means point out why it 'may be construed as racist'. I don't think that is the same as stating factually that this WAS racist. |
There is no fact to be had, J2.
It's a subjective and relative question. |  |
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