| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 17:12 - May 5 with 1591 views | Mullet |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 17:10 - May 5 by GaryCooper |
The NHS as an entity has been complicit in thousands of deaths due to the policy of clearing hospitals.
Patient facing NHS staff are of course at different matter, the virtue signalling clapping, saucepan banging and fireworks are propaganda akin to scraping aluminium saucepans in 1940 to make Spitfires. |
I'm not sure you can say that accurately. My mate's wife was diagnosed with breast cancer on the 2nd day of lockdown and they operated almost immediately and have hopefully saved her life.
Until we know what criteria and how much pressure was applied to senior staff we won't know, only suspect such things. Proving it and making it stick will be a different matter unfortunately. |  |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 17:18 - May 5 with 1567 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 17:10 - May 5 by GaryCooper |
The NHS as an entity has been complicit in thousands of deaths due to the policy of clearing hospitals.
Patient facing NHS staff are of course at different matter, the virtue signalling clapping, saucepan banging and fireworks are propaganda akin to scraping aluminium saucepans in 1940 to make Spitfires. |
If you need treatment you will get it.
The policy of reducing highly vulnerable people in an environment expecting high numbers of Covid-infected people seems logical to me.
What are your qualifications for judging the NHS decision-makers on this? |  |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 17:22 - May 5 with 1561 views | GaryCooper |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 17:18 - May 5 by Nthsuffolkblue |
If you need treatment you will get it.
The policy of reducing highly vulnerable people in an environment expecting high numbers of Covid-infected people seems logical to me.
What are your qualifications for judging the NHS decision-makers on this? |
Why would I require qualifications to know how many deaths have been caused by sending the elderly out of hospital and back to the community? The decision stinks. |  | | |
| It's shocking..... on 17:31 - May 5 with 1549 views | itfcjoe |
| It's shocking..... on 15:53 - May 5 by Bloots |
….that our media are allowed to publish inflammatory headlines like this.
It's common knowledge that countries are reporting figures differently, noticeably France (that only include direct C19 deaths, not deaths where C19 was "mentioned" on the death cert, like we do) and Italy (who only include hospital deaths, not care settings/community, like we do)
It's also disappointing to see people gleefully sharing it and commenting on it.
It's not a f*cking competition, it's people's lives.
Thankfully there are a few more sensible posters here who know this.
People should follow the trends, not the numbers and try not to turn into the very "sensationalist" people that they complain about the majority of the rest of the time.
Lambert out. |
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| I'm not talking about politics Joe.... on 17:33 - May 5 with 1537 views | Bloots |
| It's shocking..... on 17:31 - May 5 by itfcjoe |
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….I'm talking about common sense, and dare I say intelligence.
Plus a little sprinkling of respect.
The fact that he calls it a "death rate league" merely reiterates my point. |  |
| "The sooner he comes back the better, this place has been a disaster without him" - TWTD User (July 2025) |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 17:57 - May 5 with 1524 views | Trequartista |
Ah the daily news of doom.
Do Italy and Spain count deaths outside hospital? I know France do and the UK do now. If they don't then the headline is misleading. |  |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 18:14 - May 5 with 1505 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 17:57 - May 5 by Trequartista |
Ah the daily news of doom.
Do Italy and Spain count deaths outside hospital? I know France do and the UK do now. If they don't then the headline is misleading. |
Italy do, Spain we don't know (or didn't as of a few days ago).
Besides there are 'excess death' analyses for most countries now and we don't come out well in any of them. This all needs to come out in the wash and be looked at properly, but there's sufficient information now to suggest we're at the higher end of impact.
I don't see why people can't ask questions about that. |  |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 18:28 - May 5 with 1487 views | longtimefan |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 18:14 - May 5 by Swansea_Blue |
Italy do, Spain we don't know (or didn't as of a few days ago).
Besides there are 'excess death' analyses for most countries now and we don't come out well in any of them. This all needs to come out in the wash and be looked at properly, but there's sufficient information now to suggest we're at the higher end of impact.
I don't see why people can't ask questions about that. |
There is no reason not to ask questions and the questions should absolutely be asked. There is a major difference between doing that in a meaningful way though, and those who have already decided the answers. |  | | |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 18:28 - May 5 with 1492 views | Trequartista |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 18:14 - May 5 by Swansea_Blue |
Italy do, Spain we don't know (or didn't as of a few days ago).
Besides there are 'excess death' analyses for most countries now and we don't come out well in any of them. This all needs to come out in the wash and be looked at properly, but there's sufficient information now to suggest we're at the higher end of impact.
I don't see why people can't ask questions about that. |
Just read here Italy don't count them
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-uk-has-highest-number-of-deaths-in-europe
so basically we've overtaken them because we've added in a whole load of deaths that Italy don't count! | |
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| Italy don't and France..... on 18:54 - May 5 with 1454 views | Bloots |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 18:14 - May 5 by Swansea_Blue |
Italy do, Spain we don't know (or didn't as of a few days ago).
Besides there are 'excess death' analyses for most countries now and we don't come out well in any of them. This all needs to come out in the wash and be looked at properly, but there's sufficient information now to suggest we're at the higher end of impact.
I don't see why people can't ask questions about that. |
….only count deaths that specifically have C19 as the cause of death, unlike us.
They are both understating.
But as I keep saying, it's not a competition. | |
| "The sooner he comes back the better, this place has been a disaster without him" - TWTD User (July 2025) |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 20:04 - May 5 with 1409 views | Churchman |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 16:47 - May 5 by Che |
And the source of your information is? |
My source of information:
For US stats, there is an interesting article from abcnews 30/4 by Dr Mark Abdelmalek.
For Europe, there’s an interesting article in The Spectator today.
For South America try The Guardian. Loads of stuff in there
The only caveat is my distrust of the media, both here and abroad. It’s lies and distortions make understanding what is going on really difficult. |  | | |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 21:19 - May 5 with 1376 views | Ely_Blue |
There are a few things on this that people don’t take into account:
1. The ignorance of the British public to actually do as they are asked or told, I mean stay at home means stay at home doesn’t it? How simple can that be to obey? Oh I forgot we can’t have a nanny state where we allow the government to tell us what to do or to allow the police to fine or arrest us, that wouldn’t be very liberal would it
2. Most of the outbreaks in European cities have started and been centred around large urban areas, just for context Milan has 3.14M residents, Paris 2.14m, Madrid 6m, Berlin 3.5m, London 9.1m! It stands to reason that the virus will affect more people in larger more high densely populated areas, take NYC as another example.
3. The way the numbers are counted, the deaths in the UK are not all from people who died OF coronavirus they are people who died WITH Coronvirus, now if only we were comparing apples with apples rather than apples with oranges.
Whilst I don’t doubt that any government could have done better I don’t feel it right that the government take the blame for everything that hasn’t happened or that hasn’t gone right, the fact that our NHS hasn’t gone to sh!t and collapsed should be a credit to how they reacted
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52530918
Worth looking at this table of population and density in Europe too
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_population_of_European_countries |  |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 21:25 - May 5 with 1363 views | eireblue |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 14:08 - May 5 by The_Last_Baron |
Wishful thinking Sir. 51% in the polls and rising. |
Fair play, that is a surprisingly high number.
1% of people of above average intelligence convinced that the Tories are doing okay. |  | | |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 21:39 - May 5 with 1353 views | nodge_blue |
Who said this was a success?
If all the facts were known from China we would have shut down earlier. Some countries like sweden haven’t even shut down as much and yet their death rate is much lower. Sadly the disease looks like it took hold in London much more quickly than we knew. If government had shut us down too early loads of people at that time would have thought it an over reaction.
All we can do is look to change the future. Not moan about the past or other people in a trump like way. |  |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 22:38 - May 5 with 1316 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 21:39 - May 5 by nodge_blue |
Who said this was a success?
If all the facts were known from China we would have shut down earlier. Some countries like sweden haven’t even shut down as much and yet their death rate is much lower. Sadly the disease looks like it took hold in London much more quickly than we knew. If government had shut us down too early loads of people at that time would have thought it an over reaction.
All we can do is look to change the future. Not moan about the past or other people in a trump like way. |
The Prime Minister said we had managed to "avoid the tragedy that engulfed other parts of the world“ |  |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 23:13 - May 5 with 1304 views | WeWereZombies |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 21:39 - May 5 by nodge_blue |
Who said this was a success?
If all the facts were known from China we would have shut down earlier. Some countries like sweden haven’t even shut down as much and yet their death rate is much lower. Sadly the disease looks like it took hold in London much more quickly than we knew. If government had shut us down too early loads of people at that time would have thought it an over reaction.
All we can do is look to change the future. Not moan about the past or other people in a trump like way. |
If all the facts were known from China? What exactly does that mean?
Here is an interesting BBC news article from this morning about one man who seems to be in a good place to compare the different approaches of China and the United Kingdom:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-52498893 |  |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 02:20 - May 6 with 1280 views | IPS_wich |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 17:01 - May 5 by Nthsuffolkblue |
A fairer analysis would be excess deaths then wouldn't it?
The FT has some data here. You need to look at the graphs a little way down and pay attention to the percentage figure. Suggests we are not the worst but certainly don't compare well:
https://www.ft.com/content/6bd88b7d-3386-4543-b2e9-0d5c6fac846c
Not certain the rational behind the chosen countries. It also talks of 13 countries but only presents graphs for 11. |
This is the most important measure, because the only reliable benchmark of how we have gone through this period is to benchmark against ourselves. Otherwise, there are a myriad of reasons why the data isn't comparable, any of which which can be manipulated to suit an argument.
In the 2000s, the Healthcare Commission report into the Mid Staffs hospitals indicated there was an issue at the hospital due to the excess deaths over a 4-5 year period in comparison with what would have ordinarily been expected taking into account demographics etc. Two public inquiries then heard a whole series of circumstantial evidence that suggested that standards of care were low, staff had been bullied and saw data showed that staffing had been significantly cut. Enough to conclude that there was an institutional failing in its care over a prolonged period.
My point being, the political spin doctors can put as much lipstick on the sow as they like, but the fact will remain that many many more thousands of people have died in the UK than would have been typically expected during this period; whereas countries that moved to a harder lock down sooner rather than later have not experienced anywhere near the same level of excess deaths.
Or to express it in footballing terms, arguing whether the UK, Italy, US or Spain have responded the best is a bit like arguing whether you'd rather be Ipswich, Portsmouth, Sunderland or Coventry at the moment (answer - who cares - we're all likely to be stuck in League One again when the season is cancelled). | | | |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 05:36 - May 6 with 1262 views | Chrisd |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 13:08 - May 5 by monytowbray |
Late lockdown = More deaths.
I don't think that seems like un unlogical conclusion right now. 8 weeks ago it was fairly obvious how this would pan out, bar the fact it's actually worse than expected. |
A late lockdown and a weak one at that. Should’ve been a lot tougher from the start. | |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 08:35 - May 6 with 1223 views | nodge_blue |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 22:38 - May 5 by WestStanderLaLaLa |
The Prime Minister said we had managed to "avoid the tragedy that engulfed other parts of the world“ |
The times has a very good article today which has looked at all the Sage minutes. It concludes that Sage themselves were unsure about public being willing to follow advice and also unsure about impacts of the virus early on. It basically says the government did follow Sage advice as and when they gave it. | |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 08:56 - May 6 with 1205 views | BlueNomad |
We have got three pages of debate over comparisons. The bottom line is that we have had at least 30,000 tragedies in this country. It is right that we look at the way the government have performed and, one day, there should be a reckoning in my opinion. As several people have said, this is not a competition to win the league. |  | | |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 09:13 - May 6 with 1191 views | eireblue |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 08:35 - May 6 by nodge_blue |
The times has a very good article today which has looked at all the Sage minutes. It concludes that Sage themselves were unsure about public being willing to follow advice and also unsure about impacts of the virus early on. It basically says the government did follow Sage advice as and when they gave it. |
That just demonstrates the mistake the politicians made.
There was known scientific data, and real world data from Italy and China.
It was known that the virus spreads exponentially.
That was balanced with unknown opinion. There is no science or evidence on how people will react to a lockdown.
So what do you base your decisions on?
There are organisations and people that chose to go into lockdown or shut based on what they had seen.
In February Boris was giving a speech on how the U.K. would have a different approach.
So it is not “in hindsight” that the government chose the wrong course of action.
Boris Johnson and the Cabinet are responsible for decision making. SAGE doesn’t produce a single piece of advice for the government to follow. They produce a range of possible outcomes.
The ultimate decision made by the government was wrong and not based on known data, but bias and unknown data. [Post edited 6 May 2020 12:29]
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 09:43 - May 6 with 1178 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 14:03 - May 5 by Radlett_blue |
We will really see the impact of the timing & the severity of the lockdown once we actually try to move out of it. While the government probably should have acted more promptly, I think ultimately this isn't going to make a huge difference to the overall death toll. The fewer people who have been infected,, the more will be infected as we move out of lockdown. |
You have it precisely @rse about face...you should be in government.
The more people who HAVE the virus the more people will be infected when we come out of pretend lockdown.
Because there isnt anything like to the capacity to test, locate and isolate, there is no prospect of containing the virus.... the pretend lockdown has merely established the number of excess deaths that people are prepared to live with, so to speak. 700 per day give or take the few hundred more dying in care. | |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 09:59 - May 6 with 1168 views | Radlett_blue |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 09:43 - May 6 by ElephantintheRoom |
You have it precisely @rse about face...you should be in government.
The more people who HAVE the virus the more people will be infected when we come out of pretend lockdown.
Because there isnt anything like to the capacity to test, locate and isolate, there is no prospect of containing the virus.... the pretend lockdown has merely established the number of excess deaths that people are prepared to live with, so to speak. 700 per day give or take the few hundred more dying in care. |
No, the more people who have had the virus, the smaller the number of people who will be infected in future. Many of them will have experienced only mild symptoms. The lock-down has to be eased carefully, so that the NHS is not overwhelmed. Continuing with the current conditions will not eradicate the virus & it will spread again once lock-down is eased. It's all about making the spread manageable & encouraging the most vulnerable to continue to isolate. Indefinite lock down is not affordable & it's just delaying the inevitable increase in infections so it isn't a solution, unless you think, like Donald Trump, that a vaccine will be found soon. The reality is that it is at least a year away & possibly never. |  |
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 10:24 - May 6 with 1155 views | WeWereZombies |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 09:59 - May 6 by Radlett_blue |
No, the more people who have had the virus, the smaller the number of people who will be infected in future. Many of them will have experienced only mild symptoms. The lock-down has to be eased carefully, so that the NHS is not overwhelmed. Continuing with the current conditions will not eradicate the virus & it will spread again once lock-down is eased. It's all about making the spread manageable & encouraging the most vulnerable to continue to isolate. Indefinite lock down is not affordable & it's just delaying the inevitable increase in infections so it isn't a solution, unless you think, like Donald Trump, that a vaccine will be found soon. The reality is that it is at least a year away & possibly never. |
On your final sentence, do we have a vaccine for the common cold (another set of coronavirus cases)? Perhaps we should just assume that a vaccine will never be available and concentrate on how to accommodate Covid-19 into the set of pathogens we are in danger of contracting all the time. [Post edited 6 May 2020 11:06]
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| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 10:50 - May 6 with 1147 views | Radlett_blue |
| Highest death toll in Europe and rising on 10:24 - May 6 by WeWereZombies |
On your final sentence, do we have a vaccine for the common cold (another set of coronavirus cases)? Perhaps we should just assume that a vaccine will never be available and concentrate on how to accommodate Covid-19 into the set of pathogens we are in danger of contracting all the time. [Post edited 6 May 2020 11:06]
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That's exactly what I am saying. I think it's the only practicable decision. There is no easy way out. | |
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