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where does this end? blm has been a worthy cause against the real issues of racism, but its in danger of being hijacked by people being retrospectively offended on their behalf.
tv programmes being pulled on 07:22 - Jun 12 by Ely_Blue
Do we also edit out such things as the sketch in goodness gracious me where the Indian family go out for “an English”? I mean it’s racially offensive the other way isn’t it if we want to get all snowflake like and start being politically correct and racially equal in these things?
"if we want to get all snowflake like"
Literally the exact thing you've just done.
I was born underwater, I dried out in the sun.
I started humping volcanoes baby, when I was too young.
FWIW I'm not convinced by removing programmes with blackface that may or may not be offensive in the context of the show. Some of those removed are clearly not racist, some do sit a little uncomfortably though.
In the case of Bo Selecta for example, the Michael Jackson one isn't racist and is simply a caricature of a ludicrous pop star. The Tricia one is pretty dubious though.
Papa Lazarou isn't racist, isn't supposed to be a black person.
The Spirit of Jazz on TMB could be seen as a bit more problematic. But the context of the show, where every single bit of it is silly, is important in this.
Should be stated though, that I'm saying this as a middle aged, middle class, white man who doesn't really understand what it is like to be on the wrong end of racism.
I was born underwater, I dried out in the sun.
I started humping volcanoes baby, when I was too young.
Fawlty Towers remains funnier than 99% of any comedy shows being produced today, and that episode is particularly funny. You may not agree with me in which case that's fine, don't watch it. It isn't in a public place glaring at you every day as you walk past. It is my freedom of choice that allows me to watch it, and that freedom of choice has been taken from me. I am being told what I should read, watch and find funny...that is wrong. I can see why the Major's original comment could cause offence today and so was removed many years ago. Fawlty is an absurd character who has a problem with every type of person in that series, be they male, female, black, white, Irish, French, German, Spanish, hotel inspectors, builders, doctors or Siberian hamsters. That is what makes him funny to laugh at. This censorship needs to stop.
8
tv programmes being pulled on 08:57 - Jun 12 with 4208 views
Some folk out there are seriously suggesting that the fact we are entering an era in which blackface is no longer deemed acceptable is a bad thing.
Whilst its roots go back centuries, blackface is the way we think of it today really came to prominence as the campaign to end slavery grew in the first decades of the 19th century. Performers in travelling minstrel shows would use burnt cork, shoe polish and grease paint to blacken their faces so they could impersonate slaves working on plantations. The make-up often involved enlarging the performer’s lips and exaggerating features. The performers also exaggerated their accent and other characteristics. It was part of an othering process designed to make black people seem outlandish and somehow less human than their white masters.
The popularity of blackface minstrel shows continued to grow after the Civil War and the abolition of slavery in the 1860s and into the 1900s, when Jim Crow laws enforcing segregation were in place in the south.
It featured in the 1915 silent film The Birth of A Nation, a KKK-supporting cinematic epic, and as anyone of my generation will remember, blackface spread to the UK, with the BBC broadcasting The Black and White Minstrel Show, a variety programme, from 1958 right through to 1978.
Blackface is an way of asserting power and control, and allows people to continue to imagine black people as not fully human. Its history is interwoven with violence, segregation, and the racial ideologies that underpinned transatlantic slavery. Reduce people to caricatures and thus undermine their full humanity, thereby making it easier to justify unequal and degrading treatment.
But yeah . . . removing blackface from mainstream TV is an Orwellian act carried out by fascists.
tv programmes being pulled on 08:54 - Jun 12 by mikeybloo88
Fawlty Towers remains funnier than 99% of any comedy shows being produced today, and that episode is particularly funny. You may not agree with me in which case that's fine, don't watch it. It isn't in a public place glaring at you every day as you walk past. It is my freedom of choice that allows me to watch it, and that freedom of choice has been taken from me. I am being told what I should read, watch and find funny...that is wrong. I can see why the Major's original comment could cause offence today and so was removed many years ago. Fawlty is an absurd character who has a problem with every type of person in that series, be they male, female, black, white, Irish, French, German, Spanish, hotel inspectors, builders, doctors or Siberian hamsters. That is what makes him funny to laugh at. This censorship needs to stop.
I would disagree slightly.
I think Fawlty Towers remains funnier than 100% of any comedy shows being produced today.
6
tv programmes being pulled on 09:24 - Jun 12 with 4161 views
tv programmes being pulled on 22:26 - Jun 11 by Trequartista
Previously the 'n' word uttered by the major has been omitted, quite rightly i think, but pulling whole episodes? Surely the whole series is in jeopardy given Basil's attitude towards Manuel in every episode, if we take this to its logical conclusion?
More to the point was it ok for an English actor to be ”Spained up”??
It's political correctness going mad. When they are considering pulling Gavin and Stacey due to the character being called, 'Chinese Alan' because the bloke enjoys eating chinese food, it is just laughable. We're going to end up with nothing to watch and nothing to say as it's going to offend someone in some way.
tv programmes being pulled on 08:58 - Jun 12 by BLUEBEAT
Some folk out there are seriously suggesting that the fact we are entering an era in which blackface is no longer deemed acceptable is a bad thing.
Whilst its roots go back centuries, blackface is the way we think of it today really came to prominence as the campaign to end slavery grew in the first decades of the 19th century. Performers in travelling minstrel shows would use burnt cork, shoe polish and grease paint to blacken their faces so they could impersonate slaves working on plantations. The make-up often involved enlarging the performer’s lips and exaggerating features. The performers also exaggerated their accent and other characteristics. It was part of an othering process designed to make black people seem outlandish and somehow less human than their white masters.
The popularity of blackface minstrel shows continued to grow after the Civil War and the abolition of slavery in the 1860s and into the 1900s, when Jim Crow laws enforcing segregation were in place in the south.
It featured in the 1915 silent film The Birth of A Nation, a KKK-supporting cinematic epic, and as anyone of my generation will remember, blackface spread to the UK, with the BBC broadcasting The Black and White Minstrel Show, a variety programme, from 1958 right through to 1978.
Blackface is an way of asserting power and control, and allows people to continue to imagine black people as not fully human. Its history is interwoven with violence, segregation, and the racial ideologies that underpinned transatlantic slavery. Reduce people to caricatures and thus undermine their full humanity, thereby making it easier to justify unequal and degrading treatment.
But yeah . . . removing blackface from mainstream TV is an Orwellian act carried out by fascists.
[Post edited 12 Jun 2020 9:01]
I've seen a few excerpts from 'The Birth Of A Nation' recently:
tv programmes being pulled on 08:58 - Jun 12 by BLUEBEAT
Some folk out there are seriously suggesting that the fact we are entering an era in which blackface is no longer deemed acceptable is a bad thing.
Whilst its roots go back centuries, blackface is the way we think of it today really came to prominence as the campaign to end slavery grew in the first decades of the 19th century. Performers in travelling minstrel shows would use burnt cork, shoe polish and grease paint to blacken their faces so they could impersonate slaves working on plantations. The make-up often involved enlarging the performer’s lips and exaggerating features. The performers also exaggerated their accent and other characteristics. It was part of an othering process designed to make black people seem outlandish and somehow less human than their white masters.
The popularity of blackface minstrel shows continued to grow after the Civil War and the abolition of slavery in the 1860s and into the 1900s, when Jim Crow laws enforcing segregation were in place in the south.
It featured in the 1915 silent film The Birth of A Nation, a KKK-supporting cinematic epic, and as anyone of my generation will remember, blackface spread to the UK, with the BBC broadcasting The Black and White Minstrel Show, a variety programme, from 1958 right through to 1978.
Blackface is an way of asserting power and control, and allows people to continue to imagine black people as not fully human. Its history is interwoven with violence, segregation, and the racial ideologies that underpinned transatlantic slavery. Reduce people to caricatures and thus undermine their full humanity, thereby making it easier to justify unequal and degrading treatment.
But yeah . . . removing blackface from mainstream TV is an Orwellian act carried out by fascists.
[Post edited 12 Jun 2020 9:01]
Do you recognise the difference between "blackface" as in the B&W minstrels type caricature, and (for instance) the Bo Selecta Craig David?
Do we say that a comedian (as it is often in that field the issue now arises) can never send up someone of different race- even when the motive or joke is entirely unconnected with race? How about dressing up as the opposite gender? Why is that different?
I suggest it is different because of the history of "blackface". Which is why there may well be merit in drawing a distinction between that, and other examples.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
tv programmes being pulled on 09:40 - Jun 12 by sparks
Do you recognise the difference between "blackface" as in the B&W minstrels type caricature, and (for instance) the Bo Selecta Craig David?
Do we say that a comedian (as it is often in that field the issue now arises) can never send up someone of different race- even when the motive or joke is entirely unconnected with race? How about dressing up as the opposite gender? Why is that different?
I suggest it is different because of the history of "blackface". Which is why there may well be merit in drawing a distinction between that, and other examples.
It has to be said that there were some elements of blackface in Bo Selecta (exaggerated features, mocking of culture/heritage) if not specifically Craig David - the Trisha Goddard stuff especially.
Things from the past are often going to look problematic with a modern lens on them - I for instance had never really watched Fawlty Towers and was shocked at the cricket bit of the banned episode and not sure how that was ever acceptable. I think the outcome of this is that comedians will think carefully going forward, and that's no bad thing.
0
tv programmes being pulled on 09:59 - Jun 12 with 4080 views
tv programmes being pulled on 09:53 - Jun 12 by JakeITFC
It has to be said that there were some elements of blackface in Bo Selecta (exaggerated features, mocking of culture/heritage) if not specifically Craig David - the Trisha Goddard stuff especially.
Things from the past are often going to look problematic with a modern lens on them - I for instance had never really watched Fawlty Towers and was shocked at the cricket bit of the banned episode and not sure how that was ever acceptable. I think the outcome of this is that comedians will think carefully going forward, and that's no bad thing.
How do we feel about spitting image?
This is where it gets difficult. If exageration and caricature is part of comedy (which it is) then there is a very difficult tension in saying that it can only be applied to certain characters or people. Does a black spitting image puppet have to be controlled by a black person? That would be absurd. I
As for the FT episode- it is the funniest part of that episode imo. Importantly, the joke is on the Colonel. The humour actually arises from his completely unwitting, casual racism- and the cinredulity of the viewer. We are not laughing WITH him and saying "yeah look at those **** ha ha ha".
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett)
tv programmes being pulled on 09:59 - Jun 12 by sparks
How do we feel about spitting image?
This is where it gets difficult. If exageration and caricature is part of comedy (which it is) then there is a very difficult tension in saying that it can only be applied to certain characters or people. Does a black spitting image puppet have to be controlled by a black person? That would be absurd. I
As for the FT episode- it is the funniest part of that episode imo. Importantly, the joke is on the Colonel. The humour actually arises from his completely unwitting, casual racism- and the cinredulity of the viewer. We are not laughing WITH him and saying "yeah look at those **** ha ha ha".
Well it's similar to the debate about the caricature of Serena Williams after the US Open final - my answer to the question that I think you're asking is that yes, there are differences between sending up and exaggerating the features of black people and white people due to the historical connotations applicable.
That might seem fair and unequal, but I'm afraid it's because hundreds of years of imbalance mean that these things don't come with an equal history.
On FT - yes I get the joke, and it's obviously playing on the bumbling nature of the major in the way he rambles on, but it was just really harsh language to my ears and can't believe that it was ever a punchline like that.
0
tv programmes being pulled on 10:18 - Jun 12 with 4039 views
tv programmes being pulled on 09:50 - Jun 12 by Steve_M
Still, culture war arguments are so much more easier than trying to solve real issues of racial inequality and discrimination.
I like how the first reply to this is 'Is 'Love thy neighbour' and other programmes that referred disparagingly to White people as "honky" going to be banned too? Or is this a one way thing?'
I mean, that's quite a hot take isn't it?
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
I'm not a fan of going back and editing art through the gaze of modern times, I think a simple warning before the programme stating that it was a product of it's time and that it is understood that the depictions in this programme are considered socially inappropriate and offensive now is enough.
I'm pretty sure something the missus played on Disney + the other day came up with a similar message.
3
tv programmes being pulled on 11:53 - Jun 12 with 3958 views
How on Earth did we drift away from the priority issue of police murdering someone to removing statues and tv programmes so quickly ? In the era of a global pandemic, FFS!
1
tv programmes being pulled on 11:55 - Jun 12 with 3945 views
tv programmes being pulled on 11:53 - Jun 12 by FenboyBlue
How on Earth did we drift away from the priority issue of police murdering someone to removing statues and tv programmes so quickly ? In the era of a global pandemic, FFS!
Because it's a smaller part of a bigger problem with racism in our society?
Dear old footers KC - Private Counsel to Big Farmer - Liberator of Vichy TWTD
tv programmes being pulled on 22:09 - Jun 11 by SpruceMoose
Hopefully it ends with no more TV shows that are offensive to Black people and minorities airing.
but it's good that we've got humourless prigs to tell black people when to be offended.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
-4
tv programmes being pulled on 12:00 - Jun 12 with 3927 views
tv programmes being pulled on 07:22 - Jun 12 by Ely_Blue
Do we also edit out such things as the sketch in goodness gracious me where the Indian family go out for “an English”? I mean it’s racially offensive the other way isn’t it if we want to get all snowflake like and start being politically correct and racially equal in these things?
After the last few weeks, if you don't get it by now then you never will. This is why, after a certain point, I feel quite happy to just ignore or mock the willfully ignorant. I can't keep trying to explain white privilege again and again just for it to be ignored. The opportunity for education is there, and there's probably some reason why it's consistently not taken.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
tv programmes being pulled on 07:43 - Jun 12 by WeWereZombies
Exactly, I am so offended by what this black man says that I am going to share it with the TWTD forum (warning, contains an 'n' word or two)
Here he is again, being typically offensive towards us:
I am so offending that I might just spend the whole day seeking out and re-watching all those shows before they get taken off of YouTube...
Pipe down honky.
Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country."
tv programmes being pulled on 12:40 - Jun 12 by SpruceMoose
After the last few weeks, if you don't get it by now then you never will. This is why, after a certain point, I feel quite happy to just ignore or mock the willfully ignorant. I can't keep trying to explain white privilege again and again just for it to be ignored. The opportunity for education is there, and there's probably some reason why it's consistently not taken.
That was a laughably bad example from Ely which only served to highlight his own ignorance, but do you really think that all pieces of cinematic and televisual history depicting offensive racial stereotypes should be removed from public gaze?
Isn't there an argument that in order to know ourselves truly we must know our history?
Someone else mentioned context earlier in the thread, if these pieces of art were displayed under the context that the representations within them are of it's time and that they are no longer considered acceptable then what is the issue?
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