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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 05:33 - Dec 6 with 2388 viewsurbanblue

How many of you have read the documentation issued by the UK Government on this vaccine? I think everyone should. It can be found here ...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-pfizer-biontec

To be honest, I am kind of reeling at what I have just read and would appreciate some sort of feedback from people as to whether I am overreacting.

In the 'Information for UK Healthcare Professionals' document it says at Section 4.6 ...

'Fertility
It is unknown whether COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 has an impact on fertility.'

This information is NOT shown within the 'Information for UK recipients document'.

I mean, this is really important to know before having the vaccine isn't it? The media should be all over it.

Would appreciate thoughts on this.
[Post edited 6 Dec 2020 5:35]
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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 05:42 - Dec 6 with 1787 viewsFrimleyBlue

Due to my workplace we've been told we will be one of the first able to get the vaccine.

I'm caught. Part of me wants to see what actually happens with the first batch of people over a couple of months before I want it done.

But then the other part of me thinks get it.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 07:20 - Dec 6 with 1708 viewsshady

All new drugs and vaccines have these sort of clauses.

Unsure how you expect human fertility studies to be conducted in under a year.

Many of the initial patients will be elderly although some of the care givers may be women
of child bearing age.
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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 07:59 - Dec 6 with 1650 viewsHerbivore

I'm not worried, no. All it means is that this isn't something they've been able to specifically gather evidence on, which is unsurprising given the quick turnaround. There will be ongoing monitoring and studies as the vaccine is rolled out to see if there are any issues that weren't picked up on in the trials, but an absence of evidence one way or the other doesn't mean it's sensible to think that there's a chance it will affect fertility. Why would it? I imagine if this is a worry for you then you're probably under 50 and unless you're a key worker you won't be seeing the vaccine for some time, if at all. And you'll have a choice whether to take it or not if you are still worried about this issue.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:03 - Dec 6 with 1637 viewsbluelagos

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 07:20 - Dec 6 by shady

All new drugs and vaccines have these sort of clauses.

Unsure how you expect human fertility studies to be conducted in under a year.

Many of the initial patients will be elderly although some of the care givers may be women
of child bearing age.


Yep.

By definition the vaccine's long term effects have not been tested, they can't test things over 3 to 5 years if they are developed in under a year.

So we need to ask a couple of questions. Is there anything at all in the results so far to make us think there will be long term issues? Answer according to the medical experts is no.

Are the medical experts content and happy to take it themselves? Answer is a resoundng yes.

So on that basis, are you going to trust those experts opinion or do you wish to expose yourself to an ongoing risk of catching a virus that could kill you and/or leave you with life changing long term illness (long CV) ?

I will be taking it as soon as I am invited to though of course some others will choose not to. I presume they will continue to avoid all social inter action for the foreseeable future too? That is their choice at the end of the day.

It's probably worth understanding that the virus' impact on fertility is untested rather than deemed to be unsafe. The clause does not mean they have identified anything at all to indicate it is a genuine risk.
[Post edited 6 Dec 2020 8:22]

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:34 - Dec 6 with 1562 viewsStokieBlue

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 05:42 - Dec 6 by FrimleyBlue

Due to my workplace we've been told we will be one of the first able to get the vaccine.

I'm caught. Part of me wants to see what actually happens with the first batch of people over a couple of months before I want it done.

But then the other part of me thinks get it.


So you want other people to take the risk for you basically?

The vaccine has already been tested for more than "a couple of months" so waiting that long isn't going to tell you anything that isn't already known.

Why do you think it's fine to let others take risks for you?

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:40 - Dec 6 with 1546 viewsStokieBlue

Why would a mRNA vaccine which only stimulates the body to create C19 spike proteins have any affect on fertility? There is no evidence that C19 has any effect on fertility. It can't be ruled out of course but then nothing can with any medication as every person has a different body. Some people can't take paracetamol but I don't think anyone would say it shouldn't be used in that case.

Even with 10 years testing there is no guarantee of no side affects in the minority case, it's about how much the minute risk can be mitigated. This type of statement exists in virtually all vaccines for different things, have people studied the miniate of the research for every vaccine? Why are they doing it for C19? It's an interesting psychological question.

Either way, nobody who is still fertile (with regards to women) will be getting this vaccine for quite some time and nobody is being forced to take it if they are uncomfortable with it.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:41 - Dec 6 with 1543 viewsTractorWood

From what I can tell, the priority list means that no one under 65 bar carers and front line health workers are likely to get the vaccine before about June anyway.

For the people with access to the vaccine early, it's likely the risk of serious illness from covid is stronger than the risk of side effects.

I suspect vaccinating those under 45 say will be harder to get them on side as they are statistically far less likely to get seriously ill from covid. Scepticism amongst younger people will be higher if there is limited statistical risk. Second graph down https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-54908177

I'll get it if I need it to travel abroad but otherwise can't say I'm that bothered about it.

I know that was then, but it could be again..
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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:42 - Dec 6 with 1532 viewsbluelagos

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:34 - Dec 6 by StokieBlue

So you want other people to take the risk for you basically?

The vaccine has already been tested for more than "a couple of months" so waiting that long isn't going to tell you anything that isn't already known.

Why do you think it's fine to let others take risks for you?

SB


For me t's all about trust rather than civic duty Stokie. Your line is unfair as people who feel it maybe unsafe or untested shouldn't be emotionally blackmailed, it simply won't work.

And given the all time lack of trust in our lieing politicians then sadly many extrapolate that to the safety of the virus (well they would tell us it's safe wouldn't they).

I think we need to focus on those we trust, the medical experts and the messages they are giving us. Namely that it is safe with far less risk than catching the Virus.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:49 - Dec 6 with 1500 viewsStokieBlue

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:42 - Dec 6 by bluelagos

For me t's all about trust rather than civic duty Stokie. Your line is unfair as people who feel it maybe unsafe or untested shouldn't be emotionally blackmailed, it simply won't work.

And given the all time lack of trust in our lieing politicians then sadly many extrapolate that to the safety of the virus (well they would tell us it's safe wouldn't they).

I think we need to focus on those we trust, the medical experts and the messages they are giving us. Namely that it is safe with far less risk than catching the Virus.


This is the point though isn't it? They aren't trusting the medical experts and want their neighbours to have it first and test it for them. It's fine to not want or trust the vaccine but I don't think it's fine to actually say that they want their fellow countryman to be guinea pigs for them.

I've not said it's a civic duty, I've said it feels wrong to me to explicitly state that they want others, friends, neighbours and colleagues to test something for them. Nobody would say that about other things.

They could simply say they want to see more volunteer testing but it's always - "I'll let other people have it first" - a lot of those people won't have much choice as having it is safer for them than not having it.

I suspect many will also be the first to yell if there are restrictions on people who haven't had the vaccine.

SB
[Post edited 6 Dec 2020 8:51]

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:50 - Dec 6 with 1496 viewsbluelagos

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:41 - Dec 6 by TractorWood

From what I can tell, the priority list means that no one under 65 bar carers and front line health workers are likely to get the vaccine before about June anyway.

For the people with access to the vaccine early, it's likely the risk of serious illness from covid is stronger than the risk of side effects.

I suspect vaccinating those under 45 say will be harder to get them on side as they are statistically far less likely to get seriously ill from covid. Scepticism amongst younger people will be higher if there is limited statistical risk. Second graph down https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-54908177

I'll get it if I need it to travel abroad but otherwise can't say I'm that bothered about it.


Presume you are a youngster? I'd recommend a little bit of reading up on the effects of long CV. I was similarly dismissive of the personal risks a few months back before a relative who works with recovering CV patients explained how many survivors are impacted with significant negative long term effects.

Unlike say the flu (get ill, then fully recover) many with CV do not fully recover.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:59 - Dec 6 with 1475 viewsPinewoodblue

I would ask the original poster if he has ever read the instruction/ risk notes that came with any medication he has taken.


Presumably you still took the medication as you trusted the experts, it was a calculated risk.

If you don’t want to take it that’s fine you don’t need the approval of TWTD.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 09:01 - Dec 6 with 1454 viewsbluelagos

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:49 - Dec 6 by StokieBlue

This is the point though isn't it? They aren't trusting the medical experts and want their neighbours to have it first and test it for them. It's fine to not want or trust the vaccine but I don't think it's fine to actually say that they want their fellow countryman to be guinea pigs for them.

I've not said it's a civic duty, I've said it feels wrong to me to explicitly state that they want others, friends, neighbours and colleagues to test something for them. Nobody would say that about other things.

They could simply say they want to see more volunteer testing but it's always - "I'll let other people have it first" - a lot of those people won't have much choice as having it is safer for them than not having it.

I suspect many will also be the first to yell if there are restrictions on people who haven't had the vaccine.

SB
[Post edited 6 Dec 2020 8:51]


I see where you are coming frrom and some selfish people will hide behind behind that argument am sure.

The extention of the argument that it is not safe for me to take would be to also then continue in self imposed isolation until the virus has been pretty much eliminated. But agree some will simply wish to carry on regardless.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 09:06 - Dec 6 with 1429 viewsbluelagos

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:59 - Dec 6 by Pinewoodblue

I would ask the original poster if he has ever read the instruction/ risk notes that came with any medication he has taken.


Presumably you still took the medication as you trusted the experts, it was a calculated risk.

If you don’t want to take it that’s fine you don’t need the approval of TWTD.


You don't need the approval of Twtd....

You are right, but compared to many sources of non medical opinion this place is often quite well informed. Bloke down the pub / facebook bollox is so ill informed it's scary.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 09:38 - Dec 6 with 1370 viewsMeadowlark

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:34 - Dec 6 by StokieBlue

So you want other people to take the risk for you basically?

The vaccine has already been tested for more than "a couple of months" so waiting that long isn't going to tell you anything that isn't already known.

Why do you think it's fine to let others take risks for you?

SB


That's not what he said though, is it?

He was expressing his thoughts about taking/not taking the vaccine and stating that he was in two minds.
Quite a reasonable position, I think.

And then, as is typical for the times, here come the bullies, weighing in and telling people how to think and what to do.
No middle ground. This is right and this is wrong.

Everyone is different. Some people are decisive, some people are impulsive, some people are ditherers, some take ages to think things through.

They might reach your conclusion anyway. Sometimes shoving someone makes them more stubborn.
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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 09:41 - Dec 6 with 1359 viewsTractorWood

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:50 - Dec 6 by bluelagos

Presume you are a youngster? I'd recommend a little bit of reading up on the effects of long CV. I was similarly dismissive of the personal risks a few months back before a relative who works with recovering CV patients explained how many survivors are impacted with significant negative long term effects.

Unlike say the flu (get ill, then fully recover) many with CV do not fully recover.


Fully aware of it. We've had nearly 2m cases and that includes 3/4 months with no widespread testing. It would be useful to see an extrapolation of widespread antigen testing versus long covid. You raise a valid point but raise no statistical incidence.

I'm not talking about 'long covid is bad if you get it' I'm talking about macro risks to the population. I'm not really being dismissive I'm using statistics available and not emotive rhetoric.

Also 'many people with long covid don't fully recover' is totally unknown. It's been knocking around for 6/9 months.
[Post edited 6 Dec 2020 9:47]

I know that was then, but it could be again..
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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 09:43 - Dec 6 with 1345 viewsdeliasplums

Not sure it’s an issue for the demographic that will be getting this particular vaccine.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 10:34 - Dec 6 with 1253 viewsvapour_trail

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 09:38 - Dec 6 by Meadowlark

That's not what he said though, is it?

He was expressing his thoughts about taking/not taking the vaccine and stating that he was in two minds.
Quite a reasonable position, I think.

And then, as is typical for the times, here come the bullies, weighing in and telling people how to think and what to do.
No middle ground. This is right and this is wrong.

Everyone is different. Some people are decisive, some people are impulsive, some people are ditherers, some take ages to think things through.

They might reach your conclusion anyway. Sometimes shoving someone makes them more stubborn.


Really well said.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 10:51 - Dec 6 with 1225 viewsNthQldITFC

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:03 - Dec 6 by bluelagos

Yep.

By definition the vaccine's long term effects have not been tested, they can't test things over 3 to 5 years if they are developed in under a year.

So we need to ask a couple of questions. Is there anything at all in the results so far to make us think there will be long term issues? Answer according to the medical experts is no.

Are the medical experts content and happy to take it themselves? Answer is a resoundng yes.

So on that basis, are you going to trust those experts opinion or do you wish to expose yourself to an ongoing risk of catching a virus that could kill you and/or leave you with life changing long term illness (long CV) ?

I will be taking it as soon as I am invited to though of course some others will choose not to. I presume they will continue to avoid all social inter action for the foreseeable future too? That is their choice at the end of the day.

It's probably worth understanding that the virus' impact on fertility is untested rather than deemed to be unsafe. The clause does not mean they have identified anything at all to indicate it is a genuine risk.
[Post edited 6 Dec 2020 8:22]


Well put.

The only thing I know is that I might be wrong about everything else.
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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 11:20 - Dec 6 with 1193 viewsBlueBadger

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 08:03 - Dec 6 by bluelagos

Yep.

By definition the vaccine's long term effects have not been tested, they can't test things over 3 to 5 years if they are developed in under a year.

So we need to ask a couple of questions. Is there anything at all in the results so far to make us think there will be long term issues? Answer according to the medical experts is no.

Are the medical experts content and happy to take it themselves? Answer is a resoundng yes.

So on that basis, are you going to trust those experts opinion or do you wish to expose yourself to an ongoing risk of catching a virus that could kill you and/or leave you with life changing long term illness (long CV) ?

I will be taking it as soon as I am invited to though of course some others will choose not to. I presume they will continue to avoid all social inter action for the foreseeable future too? That is their choice at the end of the day.

It's probably worth understanding that the virus' impact on fertility is untested rather than deemed to be unsafe. The clause does not mean they have identified anything at all to indicate it is a genuine risk.
[Post edited 6 Dec 2020 8:22]


Quite. At present, if you catch covid, your odds of serious long term effects are roughly 1 in 10(that's 'long covid', all the way through to 'actual death' here). Whatever the odds are with a vaccine, it'll be far, far lower than that.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 11:35 - Dec 6 with 1167 viewsNthsuffolkblue

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 11:20 - Dec 6 by BlueBadger

Quite. At present, if you catch covid, your odds of serious long term effects are roughly 1 in 10(that's 'long covid', all the way through to 'actual death' here). Whatever the odds are with a vaccine, it'll be far, far lower than that.


On raw data, that would suggest something in the region of 100,000 cases of long Covid? Are there statistics available or is this more your own observations of around 2 cases for every death?

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 14:50 - Dec 6 with 1039 viewsbluelagos

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 09:41 - Dec 6 by TractorWood

Fully aware of it. We've had nearly 2m cases and that includes 3/4 months with no widespread testing. It would be useful to see an extrapolation of widespread antigen testing versus long covid. You raise a valid point but raise no statistical incidence.

I'm not talking about 'long covid is bad if you get it' I'm talking about macro risks to the population. I'm not really being dismissive I'm using statistics available and not emotive rhetoric.

Also 'many people with long covid don't fully recover' is totally unknown. It's been knocking around for 6/9 months.
[Post edited 6 Dec 2020 9:47]


Your final paragraph is a fair comment. All I can do is repeat what I was told by a medical professional who has worked/specialised on respiratory recovery for years and currently heads up a team providing those services to recovering CV patients at an Essex hospital.

She told me that the effects of CV on the patients she is seeing is long term and life changing (her words). Now I accept they could all magically get better after 6 months, but her opinion is the damage done to their respiratory function is long term.

So whilst I accept we don't know exactly what the effects are in say 2 years time, there is a lot of evidence that the effects of CV will be long lasting in some patients.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 14:55 - Dec 6 with 1031 viewsStokieBlue

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 09:38 - Dec 6 by Meadowlark

That's not what he said though, is it?

He was expressing his thoughts about taking/not taking the vaccine and stating that he was in two minds.
Quite a reasonable position, I think.

And then, as is typical for the times, here come the bullies, weighing in and telling people how to think and what to do.
No middle ground. This is right and this is wrong.

Everyone is different. Some people are decisive, some people are impulsive, some people are ditherers, some take ages to think things through.

They might reach your conclusion anyway. Sometimes shoving someone makes them more stubborn.


That's fair enough, he's not explicitly said he would delay. He has said he would consider waiting for others to take the risk though.

You are right nobody should be bullied into taking the vaccine, however I also don't think people should expect to get benefits through others taking any perceived risk. It's a hard line there I understand.

It's also worth noting that if enough people don't take the vaccine then it doesn't reach the level required to infer herd immunity on those not taking the vaccine.

SB
[Post edited 6 Dec 2020 15:09]

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 14:57 - Dec 6 with 1022 viewsStokieBlue

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 09:01 - Dec 6 by bluelagos

I see where you are coming frrom and some selfish people will hide behind behind that argument am sure.

The extention of the argument that it is not safe for me to take would be to also then continue in self imposed isolation until the virus has been pretty much eliminated. But agree some will simply wish to carry on regardless.


There is a further consideration that if sufficient numbers of people take a "wait and see" attitude whilst letting a minority "test" the vaccine in the real world then it won't be anywhere near enough numbers to protect the "wait and see" cohort and thus no herd immunity and restrictions and lockdowns until 2022.

I'm not sure if this is fully grasped by many. Perhaps it is and it's all been considered.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 16:19 - Dec 6 with 940 viewsJ2BLUE

It's also unknown if it will make you turn into a dragon after a year. It probably won't though.

Just your standard disclaimer.

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Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 16:26 - Dec 6 with 921 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Regulatory approval of Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine for COVID-19 on 11:20 - Dec 6 by BlueBadger

Quite. At present, if you catch covid, your odds of serious long term effects are roughly 1 in 10(that's 'long covid', all the way through to 'actual death' here). Whatever the odds are with a vaccine, it'll be far, far lower than that.


Do you have evidence for that 1 in 10 bit?

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