| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions 23:10 - Feb 4 with 15265 views | StokieBlue |
So it looks like the Tory backbenchers and the Chancellor are applying pressure to try and get the government to bring forward the dates for considering easing the lockdown in England.
This is against the advice of SAGE who Sunak has stated are acting too conservatively. You also have Hunt coming out and saying lockdown should be continued until cases are to 1000 per day and Starmer saying we shouldn't open up too early like other times.
Then you have Chope on Newsnight saying that the 8th March should be "lockdown freedom day" when the public get their "liberties" back and other evidences showing that only 20% of people are following isolation orders.
The issue here is that if there are 20,000 cases a day, even if the R is low (say 0.6) then when you open up that is still a high baseline number of cases which can start growing exponentially again and it won't take long to get to high numbers. Counter to that, if you wait until cases are 5,000 per day it will take longer to reach higher cases and it will also allow more time for vaccinations before those cases reach a high level.
Interesting Chope refused to say what an acceptable number of cases were to open up, he said that isn't the point and that people should be able to exercise their freedom and even referred to the public as "prisoners" so that might give an indication where a number of Tory backbenchers are at the moment.
You also have Damien Green on Newsnight saying that this has to be the last lockdown for both economic and mental health reasons and in order for that to be the case we need come out in a cautious and pragmatic way due to the new variants.
So it seems there are two very solid blocks of opinion but very little agreement between the blocks.
What are peoples thoughts?
SB
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 16:11 - Feb 5 with 2378 views | Ryorry |
Well done highlighting this - bloody awful, wasn't aware of it previously. I'm working my way through the thread slowly & only on p4 so far, but even if this has been mentioned by others, it deserves as much exposure as it can get. |  |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 16:16 - Feb 5 with 2368 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 15:56 - Feb 5 by J2BLUE |
In a pandemic...to decrease spread of the virus. Seems such an easy win to me. |
I bet you wouldn't be out the front with them. I bet you'd even get a lovely log fire fitted for your cosy office and give them a slap for even looking at your spare firewood.
Maybe, if they're good, you'd give them a microwave at Christmas to at least warm up their gruel. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 16:20 - Feb 5 with 2361 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 16:11 - Feb 5 by Ryorry |
Well done highlighting this - bloody awful, wasn't aware of it previously. I'm working my way through the thread slowly & only on p4 so far, but even if this has been mentioned by others, it deserves as much exposure as it can get. |
Quick everyone, post more stuff so we can keep ahead of Ryorry. Like The Chase, but without questions. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 16:40 - Feb 5 with 2340 views | NewcyBlue |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 15:29 - Feb 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Yeah, you were trying to twist what I was saying. Not sure why, you're normally friendly when you message me through twitter!
There was no reframing needed. I agree with both those positions! |
Apologies if it comes across as twisting your words.
I was merely trying to reframe what you were saying.
It seems you agree that the lockdown is effective. That if it were better policed, had started earlier, and was longer, it would have been more effective.
Therefore I can only think that it’s not really common sense that is lacking, but a government that is willing to follow through on the lockdown.
Common sense isn’t common. People are wired to seek people.
Lockdown goes against our instincts.
People are selfish. There’s people like Pazzers who will merrily walk around without a mask on unless it’s the law to wear it.
Therefore the government need to govern. |  |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 17:37 - Feb 5 with 2288 views | bluelagos |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 15:21 - Feb 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
We didn't know the width of the path when BL first told the story, but the people gesturing for him to move over were presumably doing so because he was walking two abreast with his friend and had room to do so. Apologies if I got something wrong BL. |
Thankyou.
I will try and be clearer next time :-) |  |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 17:39 - Feb 5 with 2281 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 16:40 - Feb 5 by NewcyBlue |
Apologies if it comes across as twisting your words.
I was merely trying to reframe what you were saying.
It seems you agree that the lockdown is effective. That if it were better policed, had started earlier, and was longer, it would have been more effective.
Therefore I can only think that it’s not really common sense that is lacking, but a government that is willing to follow through on the lockdown.
Common sense isn’t common. People are wired to seek people.
Lockdown goes against our instincts.
People are selfish. There’s people like Pazzers who will merrily walk around without a mask on unless it’s the law to wear it.
Therefore the government need to govern. |
I think the two aren't mutually exclusive. You need both - the government to govern correctly, to set the rules that protect us from ourselves, but ALSO for the individual to follow those rules AND apply common sense where there aren't rules or the rules are vague (such as whether or not you should wear a mask in a crowded high street).
Nobody wants a nanny state. So therefore individuals have to take some responsibility and prove they don't need a nanny on occasion.
Just because I was saying things would improve (and we'd have less or shorter lockdowns) if the individual made more of an effort, doesn't mean we don't need strong governance as well. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 17:44 - Feb 5 with 2270 views | NewcyBlue |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 17:39 - Feb 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I think the two aren't mutually exclusive. You need both - the government to govern correctly, to set the rules that protect us from ourselves, but ALSO for the individual to follow those rules AND apply common sense where there aren't rules or the rules are vague (such as whether or not you should wear a mask in a crowded high street).
Nobody wants a nanny state. So therefore individuals have to take some responsibility and prove they don't need a nanny on occasion.
Just because I was saying things would improve (and we'd have less or shorter lockdowns) if the individual made more of an effort, doesn't mean we don't need strong governance as well. |
I fully agree. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 19:25 - Feb 5 with 2207 views | jaykay |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 17:39 - Feb 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I think the two aren't mutually exclusive. You need both - the government to govern correctly, to set the rules that protect us from ourselves, but ALSO for the individual to follow those rules AND apply common sense where there aren't rules or the rules are vague (such as whether or not you should wear a mask in a crowded high street).
Nobody wants a nanny state. So therefore individuals have to take some responsibility and prove they don't need a nanny on occasion.
Just because I was saying things would improve (and we'd have less or shorter lockdowns) if the individual made more of an effort, doesn't mean we don't need strong governance as well. |
problem solved
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 21:38 - Feb 5 with 2158 views | DropCliffsNotBombs |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 19:25 - Feb 5 by jaykay |
problem solved
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Undone when a rogue Lagos approaches carefree at a 45 degree angle.
The prick.  |  | | |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 22:51 - Feb 5 with 2118 views | Eireannach_gorm |
Word of caution on easing restrictions.
Republic of Ireland eased lockdown restrictions on December 1st 2020 for one month. This was a phased response to give us 'some kind' of Christmas ( Note we had 429 cases per day at that stage ).
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/covid-19-restrictions-change-ireland-
Fast forward to today.
Daily cases are only now approaching 1000 a day.
However the death rate just keeps rising.
Remember we went back into lockdown on New Years Eve and are still in it. |  | | |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 09:36 - Feb 6 with 2000 views | ElderGrizzly |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 22:51 - Feb 5 by Eireannach_gorm |
Word of caution on easing restrictions.
Republic of Ireland eased lockdown restrictions on December 1st 2020 for one month. This was a phased response to give us 'some kind' of Christmas ( Note we had 429 cases per day at that stage ).
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/covid-19-restrictions-change-ireland-
Fast forward to today.
Daily cases are only now approaching 1000 a day.
However the death rate just keeps rising.
Remember we went back into lockdown on New Years Eve and are still in it. |
Deaths normally follow 2 to 3 weeks after the infection, so this is ‘normal’ in Ireland.
The peak of cases is almost exactly 2 weeks behind what is being seen in a rise in deaths.
It is still bloody horrific, but shows why people need to listen to the experts when they say this doesn’t simply go away as soon as cases fall. |  | | |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 09:55 - Feb 6 with 1994 views | Funge |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 13:12 - Feb 5 by vapour_trail |
If everyone made an effort and used their common sense rather than doing the bare minimum by law, we’d probably be out of this by now.
Sorry but this is complete boIIocks.
You’ve bought all government effort to push blame onto individuals. |
100% agree with this. |  | | |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 10:45 - Feb 6 with 1966 views | Sarge |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 11:43 - Feb 5 by bluelagos |
Agree with all of that. Which is exactly why when he shouted that I was a moron I chose not to escalate it. And is exactly why when I posted it I was pointing out that his behaviour was an example of how anxiety was making some people act/react in ways that ordinarily would be considered completely unacceptable. |
As you said, unacceptable behaviour borne of anxiety which imo is based on ignorance and most likely because people have been led to believe it’s everywhere all the time. And in many cases it is, but the one second it takes to pass someone in a street just isn’t going to do it. Assuming you even had it yourself in the first place.
“So while passing someone in the street can bring you within 2 metres of another person, the risk is thought to be very low because the exposure time to any clouds of virus they produce is minimal”
https://www.ft.com/content/2418ff87-1d41-41b5-b638-38f5164a2e94 |  | | |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 11:13 - Feb 6 with 1932 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 10:45 - Feb 6 by Sarge |
As you said, unacceptable behaviour borne of anxiety which imo is based on ignorance and most likely because people have been led to believe it’s everywhere all the time. And in many cases it is, but the one second it takes to pass someone in a street just isn’t going to do it. Assuming you even had it yourself in the first place.
“So while passing someone in the street can bring you within 2 metres of another person, the risk is thought to be very low because the exposure time to any clouds of virus they produce is minimal”
https://www.ft.com/content/2418ff87-1d41-41b5-b638-38f5164a2e94 |
Interesting stuff and I'm willing to learn more as I may have done BL a disservice in this thread. This also might ease my own fears.
"Japanese research that traced the contacts of 110 people with Covid-19 found the infection was passed on by only 12.5 per cent of those whose only interactions with others were outdoors. But of those whose only encounters were indoors, almost 75 per cent infected others."
Not sure how this works. I can understand how it's possible to only interact with others outdoors (if you don't go inside anywhere), but how do you only encounter people indoors? You have to travel outdoors to get to these indoor places. Of the people they studied, they either ONLY ever interact with people indoors or ONLY ever interacted with people outdoors. Religiously. No mixing of those two at all. Seems a bit unlikely to me, presuming these are normal people leading normal lives.
Shortly after the bit you quoted, it says, "They should still try to keep their distance as much as possible."
It's seems the old couple on BL's walk overreacted somewhat, but if he wasn't about to move to give them as much room as he could (only he knows if he was going to do this) then they can't be entirely blamed. It's unfair to call them ignorant too, as it's still not impossible to catch the virus walking past someone, and being old they're more vulnerable.
Surely the best course of action is to just give each other as much room as possible just in case. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 11:14 - Feb 6 with 1926 views | vapour_trail |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 11:13 - Feb 6 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Interesting stuff and I'm willing to learn more as I may have done BL a disservice in this thread. This also might ease my own fears.
"Japanese research that traced the contacts of 110 people with Covid-19 found the infection was passed on by only 12.5 per cent of those whose only interactions with others were outdoors. But of those whose only encounters were indoors, almost 75 per cent infected others."
Not sure how this works. I can understand how it's possible to only interact with others outdoors (if you don't go inside anywhere), but how do you only encounter people indoors? You have to travel outdoors to get to these indoor places. Of the people they studied, they either ONLY ever interact with people indoors or ONLY ever interacted with people outdoors. Religiously. No mixing of those two at all. Seems a bit unlikely to me, presuming these are normal people leading normal lives.
Shortly after the bit you quoted, it says, "They should still try to keep their distance as much as possible."
It's seems the old couple on BL's walk overreacted somewhat, but if he wasn't about to move to give them as much room as he could (only he knows if he was going to do this) then they can't be entirely blamed. It's unfair to call them ignorant too, as it's still not impossible to catch the virus walking past someone, and being old they're more vulnerable.
Surely the best course of action is to just give each other as much room as possible just in case. |
I think it’s pretty clear they’re ignorant if they’re screaming abuse at people out for a walk. |  |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 11:36 - Feb 6 with 1898 views | bluelagos |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 11:14 - Feb 6 by vapour_trail |
I think it’s pretty clear they’re ignorant if they’re screaming abuse at people out for a walk. |
Every single person on here, at times has come across people who dont socially distance as much as they like. I know I have.
There are many polite and effective ways of dealing with such a situation.
The bit that I have the most trouble with isn't that people have different expectations or knowledge or comfort/anxiety, it is that some people, including a few on here, think it justified to shout at strangers if you believe they are not social distancing in a manner that you desire.
How can it be acceptible to do that? Even if you think they should be doing something different?
Am not wanting to turn this into a 20 pager but some of the comments are utterly bizarre imho. Will leave it there and apologies to anyone upset by that observation. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 11:37 - Feb 6 with 1897 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 11:14 - Feb 6 by vapour_trail |
I think it’s pretty clear they’re ignorant if they’re screaming abuse at people out for a walk. |
The rhetoric is getting worse and worse with every retelling of this story. It started as two old people shouting and gesturing... now it's "screaming abuse." | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 12:05 - Feb 6 with 1866 views | bluelagos |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 10:45 - Feb 6 by Sarge |
As you said, unacceptable behaviour borne of anxiety which imo is based on ignorance and most likely because people have been led to believe it’s everywhere all the time. And in many cases it is, but the one second it takes to pass someone in a street just isn’t going to do it. Assuming you even had it yourself in the first place.
“So while passing someone in the street can bring you within 2 metres of another person, the risk is thought to be very low because the exposure time to any clouds of virus they produce is minimal”
https://www.ft.com/content/2418ff87-1d41-41b5-b638-38f5164a2e94 |
The bit about choir singing and public transport doesn't bode well for football. I know we are outdoors but stands are sort of enclosed too and designed to keep the sound in. | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 12:10 - Feb 6 with 1860 views | eireblue |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 10:45 - Feb 6 by Sarge |
As you said, unacceptable behaviour borne of anxiety which imo is based on ignorance and most likely because people have been led to believe it’s everywhere all the time. And in many cases it is, but the one second it takes to pass someone in a street just isn’t going to do it. Assuming you even had it yourself in the first place.
“So while passing someone in the street can bring you within 2 metres of another person, the risk is thought to be very low because the exposure time to any clouds of virus they produce is minimal”
https://www.ft.com/content/2418ff87-1d41-41b5-b638-38f5164a2e94 |
I recall an interview with a science bod, it was a SAGE person or epidemiologist, regularly on radio.
I remember the bit when he said in reply to a question, something like, and yes I do also do things like hold my breath when passing people.
Humans aren’t particularly rational at the best of times, so, during abnormal times, it isn’t unreasonable to expect anxious behaviour from some people. |  | | |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 12:14 - Feb 6 with 1856 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 11:36 - Feb 6 by bluelagos |
Every single person on here, at times has come across people who dont socially distance as much as they like. I know I have.
There are many polite and effective ways of dealing with such a situation.
The bit that I have the most trouble with isn't that people have different expectations or knowledge or comfort/anxiety, it is that some people, including a few on here, think it justified to shout at strangers if you believe they are not social distancing in a manner that you desire.
How can it be acceptible to do that? Even if you think they should be doing something different?
Am not wanting to turn this into a 20 pager but some of the comments are utterly bizarre imho. Will leave it there and apologies to anyone upset by that observation. |
Yeah, on reflection I can see your point. It sounds like they went OTT. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 12:19 - Feb 6 with 1847 views | bluelagos |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 12:10 - Feb 6 by eireblue |
I recall an interview with a science bod, it was a SAGE person or epidemiologist, regularly on radio.
I remember the bit when he said in reply to a question, something like, and yes I do also do things like hold my breath when passing people.
Humans aren’t particularly rational at the best of times, so, during abnormal times, it isn’t unreasonable to expect anxious behaviour from some people. |
I might get laughed at but if passing someone closer than I would like, who is maybe panting, I do sometimes hold my breath for a few seconds! Prrobably, OTT but as many will agree, no harm done :-) | |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 12:26 - Feb 6 with 1830 views | J2BLUE |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 12:19 - Feb 6 by bluelagos |
I might get laughed at but if passing someone closer than I would like, who is maybe panting, I do sometimes hold my breath for a few seconds! Prrobably, OTT but as many will agree, no harm done :-) |
I have always done this when someone is walking towards me while smoking. |  |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 12:28 - Feb 6 with 1827 views | Funge |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 11:37 - Feb 6 by The_Flashing_Smile |
The rhetoric is getting worse and worse with every retelling of this story. It started as two old people shouting and gesturing... now it's "screaming abuse." |
That's literally what happened tho, BL's initial post stated that:-
'As I pass I get told / shouted at for being "A selfish prick" by the old lady and "A moron" by the old man.'
As often is the case, I don't really know what your point is here. | | | |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 12:30 - Feb 6 with 1817 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 12:19 - Feb 6 by bluelagos |
I might get laughed at but if passing someone closer than I would like, who is maybe panting, I do sometimes hold my breath for a few seconds! Prrobably, OTT but as many will agree, no harm done :-) |
Yeah I hold my breath sometimes when I feel people are a bit close. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 13:05 - Feb 6 with 1789 views | Sarge |
| The argument is heating up on easing restrictions on 12:05 - Feb 6 by bluelagos |
The bit about choir singing and public transport doesn't bode well for football. I know we are outdoors but stands are sort of enclosed too and designed to keep the sound in. |
No but important to remember this article is from June. We’ll vaccinate our way out of this sooner rather than later and then it won’t matter. | | | |
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