| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic 18:24 - Nov 15 with 3199 views | Crawfordsboot |
Taunting.
As a male in my early seventies I have in my lifetime seen a huge change in what is deemed by society to be unacceptable behaviour. This is particularly true of the last decade.
I guess that I am no different to many of my generation in that our views and sensibilities have also changed and evolved over the decades. I have to admit that I would not be comfortable having “jokes” I might have repeated in my younger days bounced back at me today. Attitudes in society have changed hugely and so have mine.
Whilst I can see that it is necessary to call out society’s past failings is it really helpful to crucify individuals today for something from ten or twenty year back when society was very different and those individuals might have now moved on in the same way that society generally has moved on?
I’m all for strengthening and enforcing current legislation in these areas but just not sure about the merits of pursuing historic cases from say ten (?). or more year back.
I’d be interested to know what others think. |  | | |  |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 20:47 - Nov 15 with 1087 views | Dubtractor |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 18:33 - Nov 15 by Herbivore |
I'm 40 and I don't remember racism being okay 10 or even 20 years ago. |
Yeah, I think I'd want to separate racism from things like sexism or homophobic abuse.
I think that the acceptance of racism as being OK, even in a casual sense, was long past by the turn of the millennium, but I don't think it is so straightforward on other issues that may be clearly unacceptable today.
Just to clarify, I don't think that homophobia, for example, was ever OK, but very clearly it was accepted and even seen as fair game in mainstream films and TV to mock someone for being perceived to be gay until very recently. [Post edited 15 Nov 2021 22:10]
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 20:55 - Nov 15 with 1069 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 20:28 - Nov 15 by Crawfordsboot |
You make some good points but homophobic abuse has not always been unacceptable. Witness Oscar Wilde - his abusers had the law on their side. I would argue that more recently society has accepted the abuse of Romany travellers. That situation is improving but still has some way to go. |
Fair point. There have been laws that have clearly discriminated against homosexuals and this is what I do mean about not applying new rules retrospectively. Things from TV and comedians that were acceptable in the 70s and maybe into the 80s have not been acceptable for a long time. As I say, if it is clearly provable that the phrase/usage was acceptable at the time it should not be punished. |  |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 21:49 - Nov 15 with 1011 views | eastangliaisblue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 20:28 - Nov 15 by Crawfordsboot |
You make some good points but homophobic abuse has not always been unacceptable. Witness Oscar Wilde - his abusers had the law on their side. I would argue that more recently society has accepted the abuse of Romany travellers. That situation is improving but still has some way to go. |
"I would argue that more recently society has accepted the abuse of Romany travellers."
You're not wrong. |  | | |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 21:49 - Nov 15 with 1012 views | eireblue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 19:04 - Nov 15 by Crawfordsboot |
OK but can I ask in your youth were you ever in a group of lads where someone referred to p**fs when aids first appeared, or told an Irish joke, or referred to a woman in coarse terms. If so did you ever snigger along at one or more of those. Or did you fail to call it out at the time? I’m guilty. If you can plead not guilty to all the above then you are a better man than me. |
Been in a similar situation as you described.
As a target.
Not everyone did it.
Who do you think should be answering the question? |  | | |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 22:04 - Nov 15 with 987 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 21:49 - Nov 15 by eastangliaisblue |
"I would argue that more recently society has accepted the abuse of Romany travellers."
You're not wrong. |
Yes, I should have added that to my list of today’s “normalised” racism and prejudice.
What I don’t get is that politicians and the media surely know this is wrong. So why do they lean into this stuff instead of calling it out? |  |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 22:06 - Nov 15 with 970 views | factual_blue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 20:45 - Nov 15 by Pendejo |
Cor blimey!
Never realised that "parking the car at Gatwick" was a euphemism for gay love! |
I'd thought you'd have realised that given your line of work.
Did you have a special secret parking place when you 'took a fare all the way to the South Terminal'? |  |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 22:13 - Nov 15 with 943 views | factual_blue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 21:49 - Nov 15 by eastangliaisblue |
"I would argue that more recently society has accepted the abuse of Romany travellers."
You're not wrong. |
...And ginger-haired people. | |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 22:17 - Nov 15 with 944 views | eastangliaisblue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 22:04 - Nov 15 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, I should have added that to my list of today’s “normalised” racism and prejudice.
What I don’t get is that politicians and the media surely know this is wrong. So why do they lean into this stuff instead of calling it out? |
They're playing up to their target audience. Also a distraction tactic from their own sleaze and corruption. | | | |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 22:59 - Nov 15 with 894 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 22:17 - Nov 15 by eastangliaisblue |
They're playing up to their target audience. Also a distraction tactic from their own sleaze and corruption. |
Think the first part is the main driver – sadly, it’s been a tactic by Labour candidates too. | |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 23:12 - Nov 15 with 877 views | XYZ |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 22:59 - Nov 15 by Darth_Koont |
Think the first part is the main driver – sadly, it’s been a tactic by Labour candidates too. |
Too many people will vote for utter Koonts |  | | |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 23:18 - Nov 15 with 857 views | wkj |
I believe there are clear differences between being racist and saying racist things. In the 70s, one would have been more acceptable than the other - but not so much in the modern-day.
However, it doesn't mean the people who are subject to prejudice we're impacted any less. I think it is very important for historical 'mistakes' to be discussed and fixed - and with that comes the ability to say 'I was wrong'.
The problem is, not many people are willing to admit to being wrong, and often seek elaborate ways to seek justification.
On that token I fully believe we should be critical of our past, yet use this to celebrate how our society evolves and becomes more accepting. Whether or not we are more accepting is highly debatable, as many who get angry about righting the wrongs of the past are entrenched in the mentality of seeking elaborate ways to seek justification.
I can see the OP's logic on this one, and it is a very comfortable way of thinking - however, a better society will always be genuine in acknowledging their mistakes and committing to an accepting future. [Post edited 15 Nov 2021 23:19]
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 10:24 - Nov 16 with 662 views | Crawfordsboot |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 23:18 - Nov 15 by wkj |
I believe there are clear differences between being racist and saying racist things. In the 70s, one would have been more acceptable than the other - but not so much in the modern-day.
However, it doesn't mean the people who are subject to prejudice we're impacted any less. I think it is very important for historical 'mistakes' to be discussed and fixed - and with that comes the ability to say 'I was wrong'.
The problem is, not many people are willing to admit to being wrong, and often seek elaborate ways to seek justification.
On that token I fully believe we should be critical of our past, yet use this to celebrate how our society evolves and becomes more accepting. Whether or not we are more accepting is highly debatable, as many who get angry about righting the wrongs of the past are entrenched in the mentality of seeking elaborate ways to seek justification.
I can see the OP's logic on this one, and it is a very comfortable way of thinking - however, a better society will always be genuine in acknowledging their mistakes and committing to an accepting future. [Post edited 15 Nov 2021 23:19]
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As the OP I hope I was not adopting a”very comfortable way of thinking” as you put It. On the contrary, thinking about this has made me very uncomfortable, not least because it forces me and any other thinking person to face up to past failings.
This debate has been interesting, with a number of good points made. On reflection I’m inclined towards the view that for incidents occurring more than say ten years ago, that have not previously been reported, it would be better to address them in some form of truth and reconciliation forum where hurts could be acknowledged and apologies made. That sort of approach could send a very positive and endorsing message going forward. I recognise that unfortunately this is unlikely to happen and that I’m likely to be viewed as a daydreaming old fart. | | | |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 10:38 - Nov 16 with 646 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 10:24 - Nov 16 by Crawfordsboot |
As the OP I hope I was not adopting a”very comfortable way of thinking” as you put It. On the contrary, thinking about this has made me very uncomfortable, not least because it forces me and any other thinking person to face up to past failings.
This debate has been interesting, with a number of good points made. On reflection I’m inclined towards the view that for incidents occurring more than say ten years ago, that have not previously been reported, it would be better to address them in some form of truth and reconciliation forum where hurts could be acknowledged and apologies made. That sort of approach could send a very positive and endorsing message going forward. I recognise that unfortunately this is unlikely to happen and that I’m likely to be viewed as a daydreaming old fart. |
Society is constantly changing, and not always for the better.
The historical problems were made worse by the fact those directly affected rarely felt able to speak out. |  |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 10:41 - Nov 16 with 639 views | unbelievablue |
Nah, cos some people aren't contrite. Case by case, init. |  |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 10:55 - Nov 16 with 628 views | Herbivore |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 10:24 - Nov 16 by Crawfordsboot |
As the OP I hope I was not adopting a”very comfortable way of thinking” as you put It. On the contrary, thinking about this has made me very uncomfortable, not least because it forces me and any other thinking person to face up to past failings.
This debate has been interesting, with a number of good points made. On reflection I’m inclined towards the view that for incidents occurring more than say ten years ago, that have not previously been reported, it would be better to address them in some form of truth and reconciliation forum where hurts could be acknowledged and apologies made. That sort of approach could send a very positive and endorsing message going forward. I recognise that unfortunately this is unlikely to happen and that I’m likely to be viewed as a daydreaming old fart. |
But I'm not sure there really are many cases dating back more than 10 years where people are calling for other people's heads. The Vaughan allegations are from 2009 I believe, so just over 10 years, but Christ on a bike, nobody thought what he is alleged to have said was okay in 2009 so it isn't really a case of society moving on other than that victims feel more empowered to speak out now perhaps. |  |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 11:11 - Nov 16 with 611 views | itfcjoe |
Difficult one - it's hard to judge everyone by just a fixed time scale because not everyone has changed, and some still hold those views.
I think one of the problems with sports teams is that they are often just like still being in high school or away on a lads trips. It's all lads, loads of testosterone, a load of arrogance, and constant one up manship.
If anyone is different in anyway they will get abused for it - but maybe those doing the abusing don't realise that it cuts some people deeper than others, and when it is race and it is something that can't be changed, and has seen you and your forefathers having a tougher life from the day dot it goes past 'banter'
I guess another difference is sports teams are not always mates, they are friends of convenience, and if it is a friendship group you can either call your mates out, or stop hanging around with them, but to do so in this situation will negatively effect your dream career.
It's a very difficult issue to solve, but it is really a young boy issue that goes into later life. I'm far from perfect, when I hang about with my school mates I revert back to being a 15 year old idiot, and sure on away days with a few beers in my belly it's the same. I know where the line is more now but still not someone who would call out anything bar the most extreme. |  |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 12:07 - Nov 16 with 573 views | Ryorry |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 11:11 - Nov 16 by itfcjoe |
Difficult one - it's hard to judge everyone by just a fixed time scale because not everyone has changed, and some still hold those views.
I think one of the problems with sports teams is that they are often just like still being in high school or away on a lads trips. It's all lads, loads of testosterone, a load of arrogance, and constant one up manship.
If anyone is different in anyway they will get abused for it - but maybe those doing the abusing don't realise that it cuts some people deeper than others, and when it is race and it is something that can't be changed, and has seen you and your forefathers having a tougher life from the day dot it goes past 'banter'
I guess another difference is sports teams are not always mates, they are friends of convenience, and if it is a friendship group you can either call your mates out, or stop hanging around with them, but to do so in this situation will negatively effect your dream career.
It's a very difficult issue to solve, but it is really a young boy issue that goes into later life. I'm far from perfect, when I hang about with my school mates I revert back to being a 15 year old idiot, and sure on away days with a few beers in my belly it's the same. I know where the line is more now but still not someone who would call out anything bar the most extreme. |
That absolutely tallies with Rafiq's recounting (in the currently live Parliamentary Committee meeting) of the horrific "red wine" incident when he was 15.
As youngsters particularly, but all ages throughout players' careers in all sports at clubs or international sides, I'm guessing there's pressure to conform & reluctance to speak out because players fear if they do, it'll affect their progress at the club, or selection for teams, or even continuing contracts.
11:14am
Rafiq recalls 'forced to drink red wine' incident
Rafiq is asked again about being forced to drink red wine when he was playing club cricket at the age of 15.
"We were in a car," he says. "I've got a witness. No-one intervened.
"I’m angry at myself for looking the other way."
He is then asked if anyone has ever stood up for him during his time playing the game.
"At the time, no-one stood up for me," he says. "That’s the institution. You had people who were openly racist, then you had bystanders."
One MP reassures him that he was "only 15" at the time. |  |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 12:23 - Nov 16 with 539 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 12:07 - Nov 16 by Ryorry |
That absolutely tallies with Rafiq's recounting (in the currently live Parliamentary Committee meeting) of the horrific "red wine" incident when he was 15.
As youngsters particularly, but all ages throughout players' careers in all sports at clubs or international sides, I'm guessing there's pressure to conform & reluctance to speak out because players fear if they do, it'll affect their progress at the club, or selection for teams, or even continuing contracts.
11:14am
Rafiq recalls 'forced to drink red wine' incident
Rafiq is asked again about being forced to drink red wine when he was playing club cricket at the age of 15.
"We were in a car," he says. "I've got a witness. No-one intervened.
"I’m angry at myself for looking the other way."
He is then asked if anyone has ever stood up for him during his time playing the game.
"At the time, no-one stood up for me," he says. "That’s the institution. You had people who were openly racist, then you had bystanders."
One MP reassures him that he was "only 15" at the time. |
I suspect we will, at sometime in the future, face a similar situation in main stream sport with regards to homophobia. | |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 12:24 - Nov 16 with 533 views | unbelievablue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 12:23 - Nov 16 by Pinewoodblue |
I suspect we will, at sometime in the future, face a similar situation in main stream sport with regards to homophobia. |
Good. | |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 12:26 - Nov 16 with 519 views | J2BLUE |
I'm strongly in favour of this but if we're writing off the past then we need to guarantee the future and have proper consequences for all kinds of abuse.
I think we would also need an apology in the HofC as well to these groups. That's the sort of thing I have thought was madness in the past but if something like this came in then it would be fitting and right IMO. |  |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 12:28 - Nov 16 with 505 views | unbelievablue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 12:26 - Nov 16 by J2BLUE |
I'm strongly in favour of this but if we're writing off the past then we need to guarantee the future and have proper consequences for all kinds of abuse.
I think we would also need an apology in the HofC as well to these groups. That's the sort of thing I have thought was madness in the past but if something like this came in then it would be fitting and right IMO. |
How do you even go about enforcing that, let alone choosing a generic elapsed time period?
Most of these things don't go to a court of law anyway. | |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 12:44 - Nov 16 with 473 views | J2BLUE |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 12:28 - Nov 16 by unbelievablue |
How do you even go about enforcing that, let alone choosing a generic elapsed time period?
Most of these things don't go to a court of law anyway. |
You'll need cleverer people than me for that. Maybe anything over a decade before the legislation comes in? Maybe it's unworkable in reality. | |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 13:06 - Nov 16 with 451 views | DanTheMan |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 10:41 - Nov 16 by unbelievablue |
Nah, cos some people aren't contrite. Case by case, init. |
This.
There's a difference between saying something you shouldn't have one time and being a signed up member to the KKK for example.
It all depends on the severity of what happened, and what happened once it was revealed. |  |
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| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 13:23 - Nov 16 with 423 views | leitrimblue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 21:49 - Nov 15 by eastangliaisblue |
"I would argue that more recently society has accepted the abuse of Romany travellers."
You're not wrong. |
Travellers appear to be one of the last groups in society that it's completely acceptable to abuse. You could see it on here when a couple of dogs went missing in Ipswich earlier in the year. Some of the language used was embarrassing. Bit sad really |  | | |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 13:40 - Nov 16 with 386 views | eastangliaisblue |
| Do we need a statute of limitations for historic sexist, racist or homophobic on 13:23 - Nov 16 by leitrimblue |
Travellers appear to be one of the last groups in society that it's completely acceptable to abuse. You could see it on here when a couple of dogs went missing in Ipswich earlier in the year. Some of the language used was embarrassing. Bit sad really |
Not that I really want to get into it again, but there has been a few posts in the last year or so, where it has been very open. I’ve never really had abuse to my face, although I have had the odd, “but where are you from originally?” What I see online from time to time though is pretty disgusting. | | | |
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