| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go 11:06 - Nov 21 with 11077 views | N2_Blue |
Signing a player like Chaplin and having him only play cameos in a side that has only one 6 games league games is criminal.
To be worse off at the same stage as last season with this squad is not good enough.
This isn't just on the back of Sunderland defeat which we didn't deserve but as a season overall it is so far short of where we need to be.
Again Cook failed in a game to change us to get a positive result. People say things have been getting better - 2 defeats in 15 before yesterday - but we don't string wins together and even the goals have completely dried up now.
It's just not good enough. Managers probably don't get enough time these days but stick with the wrong manager too long at a time we have our best chance ever of becoming upwardly mobile again could be disastrous. We cannot afford to be a mid league side and that's all we appear to be under Cook. The lack of consistency is alarming.
Fail to beat Rotherham on Tuesday and i think a significant proportion of the fan base will start to move towards Cook out just as we run in PackoutPR campaign of games.
Season is dangerously close to completely unravelling.
The last two months has done nothing for Town after the bad start, we are actually further away from the top, not closer! Very worrying. |  |
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| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 10:13 - Nov 22 with 510 views | timothyeo |
| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 10:04 - Nov 22 by WilbrahamBlue |
The mind boggles.
You would propose that if we do get promoted THATS a good point to change manager?
Quoting the form table when we are 9th in it? quote the form table a couple games back and we were up to 4th in it...these stats are useless until the end of the season as can always find something to back either side of the argument.
Bigger question should be do you believe in the new owners and believe that they also want promotion AND a long-term sustainable model like they say? If you do why not just trust them to get on with it? |
I was quoting the form-table because others were claiming we couldn't use something like, you know, the actual table because that included a poor start which we should excuse like everything else that goes wrong.
I would have no problem changing manager once promoted. People mock Watford but that ruthlessness has had them performing above us for god knows how long.
As for the new owners - I have absolutely no idea. None of us do. I'm not going to blindly believe in them - they have no love for the club so are only in it for financial gain - how that comes about is where we will discover if they were right for the club. Hypothetically if human-right abusing Saudi owners like Newcastle's offered them double the money they paid for the club right now they'd snap their hand off regardless of fans thoughts. |  | | |
| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 10:13 - Nov 22 with 526 views | Herbivore |
| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 10:04 - Nov 22 by unstableblue |
You’ll be pleased to hear that Saturday’s display looked like we’d stepped up a notch in terms of organisation and being able to dominate teams, and that bodes well going into some incredibly tough fixtures. But we failed to get the three points.
I’m hoping that Rotherham, Charlton and Wigan come at us a little more and provide the space for us to play, a la Wycombe.
Good to see you haven’t given up just yet. Going to be a tough few weeks for Cook in my mind. Needs the players to stand up and be counted now… get their energy and intent increased further. But Cook and Roberts need to coach some new attacking shape and plays into them. Need a bit of luck. Also settle on the right selection. It feels like Fraser and Chaplin have a role in us going on a run. But you need the pace and breaking the lines of an edwards or a Burns. |
But Saturday's display ultimately yielded no points and a second half in which we created more or less nothing. And even first half it was one or two genuine chances and a few half chances. That's been the same all season really, on the three occasions we've hammered sides the difference has been that we've been clinical. Otherwise whilst we usually have a spell or a half on top in games we don't really batter teams, much of our play fizzles out as we get to the final third. I'd hoped that side of things would improve but we still look rather disjointed at times.
We'll see, it's a big few weeks coming up. A couple more losses and it's hard to see how Cook can salvage the season to be honest. A few wins on the trot and things look much brighter again. I suspect though that'll we'll fall somewhere between the two and carry on just stumbling along, looking decent enough at times but still not looking like a side that can go on a sustained run of being the best in the league. And ultimately that will lead to the season fizzling out, sadly. |  |
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| When Cook took over..... on 10:19 - Nov 22 with 498 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| When Cook took over..... on 07:46 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont |
I’m not talking about how Evans saw it. I’m talking about the fans and particularly the debates on this forum.
That may well be fans everywhere but hearing people talk about us getting promotion at the first attempt as the minimum expectation, it feels like many of us still haven’t learnt anything after 20 years.
A bit more of a sense of reality and the bigger picture of where we actually want to be over the next 4 or 5 years wouldn’t go amiss. We’ve literally just changed everything about the club and the squad but that’s seen as an easy shortcut!? Wtf indeed. |
That’s largely nonsense though. Fans of all clubs have high expectations and want success now, but unless they’re running the club or that sentiment is actively forcing rash decisions from those that do it’s irrelevant
That certainly hasn’t been the case with us, for pretty much all of those managers fans had wanted a change long before the trigger was pulled and results at their end of those tenures have proven the fans to be right. Acting short term has been the least of our problems - in fact I’d strongly argue the opposite |  |
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| When Cook took over..... on 10:23 - Nov 22 with 491 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| When Cook took over..... on 08:13 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont |
Maybe that didn’t come across exactly as I meant it. I don’t think anybody is wrong to want more for the club over the past 20 years. And we should expect more than we got.
But it seems like we’re still way too attached to short-term measures and “flick the switch” solutions. Ultimately that did for McCarthy when it was clear that a bottom 6 budget was the real context. It saw people welcome relegation as an opportunity to just bounce back stronger. And now we’re seeing people blithely talk about promotion as the only expectation this year. Which club or clubs are we even comparing ourselves with to come up with that? |
Which clubs are we comparing ourselves to?
Pretty much every big club that has come down to this division that wasn’t completely bankrupt had either been promoted or were well on their way to promotion by now. So err, everyone?
I don't hate Cook like I did Lambert by C_HealyIsAPleasure 4 Oct 2021 9:20We’re certainly making harder work of it than most though
Looking at the big clubs that have come down to here in the last 20 or so years:
Man City, Leicester, Norwich, Wolves and Blackburn were all promoted at the first attempt
Sheffield Weds (1st time around) and Southampton did it second time around
Forest, Leeds and Charlton (twice) did it at the third go, all having made the playoffs beforehand. Leeds would have gone up automatically first time around had they not been deducted 15 points
Sunderland are on their 4th attempt but have made the playoffs twice, and currently sit second
Sheffield United are the outliers taking 6 seasons, but again did playoffs 3 times beforehand including their first 2 seasons
Portsmouth, Bolton and Coventry I think are somewhat different cases, given they were all basically bankrupt when they came down
So looking at like for like cases, if we don’t go up this season we’ll have taken longer than everyone bar Sunderland and Sheffield United, and we’re already behind the curve on those too having not even yet made the playoffs
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| When Cook took over..... on 10:45 - Nov 22 with 464 views | JDB23 |
| When Cook took over..... on 10:23 - Nov 22 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Which clubs are we comparing ourselves to?
Pretty much every big club that has come down to this division that wasn’t completely bankrupt had either been promoted or were well on their way to promotion by now. So err, everyone?
I don't hate Cook like I did Lambert by C_HealyIsAPleasure 4 Oct 2021 9:20We’re certainly making harder work of it than most though
Looking at the big clubs that have come down to here in the last 20 or so years:
Man City, Leicester, Norwich, Wolves and Blackburn were all promoted at the first attempt
Sheffield Weds (1st time around) and Southampton did it second time around
Forest, Leeds and Charlton (twice) did it at the third go, all having made the playoffs beforehand. Leeds would have gone up automatically first time around had they not been deducted 15 points
Sunderland are on their 4th attempt but have made the playoffs twice, and currently sit second
Sheffield United are the outliers taking 6 seasons, but again did playoffs 3 times beforehand including their first 2 seasons
Portsmouth, Bolton and Coventry I think are somewhat different cases, given they were all basically bankrupt when they came down
So looking at like for like cases, if we don’t go up this season we’ll have taken longer than everyone bar Sunderland and Sheffield United, and we’re already behind the curve on those too having not even yet made the playoffs
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Would be interesting to see how many clubs of roughly our size missed out on play offs 3 seasons in a row after relegation without huge financial issues. I wouldn’t be surprised if that number was 0. Fans definitely have unrealistic expectations though. | | | |
| When Cook took over..... on 10:53 - Nov 22 with 446 views | Herbivore |
| When Cook took over..... on 10:45 - Nov 22 by JDB23 |
Would be interesting to see how many clubs of roughly our size missed out on play offs 3 seasons in a row after relegation without huge financial issues. I wouldn’t be surprised if that number was 0. Fans definitely have unrealistic expectations though. |
In recent years I think only Wigan and Bolton have done worse than us following relegation from the Championship, and they both had points deductions. Most other sides have made the top 6 or narrowly missed out (as was the case with Charlton last year). Rotherham, Wycombe and Sheffield Wednesday are top 7 currently. For all that Sunderland have ended up stuck here, they competed strongly for promotion in year 1 and made the play offs last season, missing out very narrowly in the Covid disrupted year. We need to stop normalising struggling to make an impact in League 1 as though it's what we should expect. Most sides of our stature and many smaller sides dropping down from the Championship make a far better fist of getting out of this league than we've managed. | |
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| When Cook took over..... on 11:06 - Nov 22 with 413 views | jayessess |
| When Cook took over..... on 10:45 - Nov 22 by JDB23 |
Would be interesting to see how many clubs of roughly our size missed out on play offs 3 seasons in a row after relegation without huge financial issues. I wouldn’t be surprised if that number was 0. Fans definitely have unrealistic expectations though. |
I can't see any candidates. even going all the way back to 2003. |  |
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| When Cook took over..... on 11:25 - Nov 22 with 393 views | Darth_Koont |
| When Cook took over..... on 10:23 - Nov 22 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Which clubs are we comparing ourselves to?
Pretty much every big club that has come down to this division that wasn’t completely bankrupt had either been promoted or were well on their way to promotion by now. So err, everyone?
I don't hate Cook like I did Lambert by C_HealyIsAPleasure 4 Oct 2021 9:20We’re certainly making harder work of it than most though
Looking at the big clubs that have come down to here in the last 20 or so years:
Man City, Leicester, Norwich, Wolves and Blackburn were all promoted at the first attempt
Sheffield Weds (1st time around) and Southampton did it second time around
Forest, Leeds and Charlton (twice) did it at the third go, all having made the playoffs beforehand. Leeds would have gone up automatically first time around had they not been deducted 15 points
Sunderland are on their 4th attempt but have made the playoffs twice, and currently sit second
Sheffield United are the outliers taking 6 seasons, but again did playoffs 3 times beforehand including their first 2 seasons
Portsmouth, Bolton and Coventry I think are somewhat different cases, given they were all basically bankrupt when they came down
So looking at like for like cases, if we don’t go up this season we’ll have taken longer than everyone bar Sunderland and Sheffield United, and we’re already behind the curve on those too having not even yet made the playoffs
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Surprisingly, I am aware clubs have been promoted from this division.
I’m talking about teams that have completely gutted the squad and club off the pitch then waltzed to automatic promotion that same season.
Seem to remember Notts County tried something similar without success. But any others? |  |
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| When Cook took over..... on 11:33 - Nov 22 with 374 views | jayessess |
| When Cook took over..... on 11:25 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont |
Surprisingly, I am aware clubs have been promoted from this division.
I’m talking about teams that have completely gutted the squad and club off the pitch then waltzed to automatic promotion that same season.
Seem to remember Notts County tried something similar without success. But any others? |
Wolves 2017-18 in the Championship. | |
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| When Cook took over..... on 11:35 - Nov 22 with 373 views | JDB23 |
| When Cook took over..... on 11:25 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont |
Surprisingly, I am aware clubs have been promoted from this division.
I’m talking about teams that have completely gutted the squad and club off the pitch then waltzed to automatic promotion that same season.
Seem to remember Notts County tried something similar without success. But any others? |
Not sure about automatic but Blackpool made plenty of changes last year and Wigan went through a similar process to us and are making a far better fist of it. Would have to look back historically for other examples. I would also bet that any example that is found will have no where near the resources we have, this squad was talked about as one of the best this division has ever seen.
We’re also not slightly missing out on automatics, it’s not even December and top 2 is pretty much already out of our reach and we’re potentially closer to the relegation places than play offs if MK/Sunderland win games in hand. | | | |
| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 11:39 - Nov 22 with 366 views | Darth_Koont |
| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 10:07 - Nov 22 by Herbivore |
Cook was my top choice as he was for most of us, so the notion that criticism of Cook is based on anything other than the poor job he's done here to date is well wide of the mark.
I thought you were taking a wider view? Now you're looking at things game by game? I'm not sure those two approaches sit all that well alongside each other. |
Looking ahead, yes. Pointless setting some arbitrary target over a specific run of games. Far better to actual look back at our record which has seen us generally put better performances and results together as the season has gone on.
Taking the wider view, we want to keep seeing those improvements and progress. Like we did against Sunderland to be fair, where for once the strong performance really didn’t match the result. Hopefully, that’s balanced up at some stage by a win that we really don’t deserve. | |
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| When Cook took over..... on 11:41 - Nov 22 with 357 views | jayessess |
| When Cook took over..... on 11:35 - Nov 22 by JDB23 |
Not sure about automatic but Blackpool made plenty of changes last year and Wigan went through a similar process to us and are making a far better fist of it. Would have to look back historically for other examples. I would also bet that any example that is found will have no where near the resources we have, this squad was talked about as one of the best this division has ever seen.
We’re also not slightly missing out on automatics, it’s not even December and top 2 is pretty much already out of our reach and we’re potentially closer to the relegation places than play offs if MK/Sunderland win games in hand. |
With the exception of teams in financial trouble, as far as I can tell there's very little evidence that high squad turnover has an adverse effect on league position. Developing chemistry and a style of play amongst 18 footballers just doesn't take that long. | |
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| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 11:44 - Nov 22 with 351 views | Herbivore |
| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 11:39 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont |
Looking ahead, yes. Pointless setting some arbitrary target over a specific run of games. Far better to actual look back at our record which has seen us generally put better performances and results together as the season has gone on.
Taking the wider view, we want to keep seeing those improvements and progress. Like we did against Sunderland to be fair, where for once the strong performance really didn’t match the result. Hopefully, that’s balanced up at some stage by a win that we really don’t deserve. |
Although I think evidence of that ongoing improvement is somewhat limited personally, given our form has actually dipped slightly of late. And if we're pointing at a 2-0 defeat at a badly out of form Sunderland as evidence of improvement then that rather smacks of desperation. [Post edited 22 Nov 2021 11:51]
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| He's not moving us "upwards" though..... on 11:46 - Nov 22 with 348 views | positivity |
| He's not moving us "upwards" though..... on 23:25 - Nov 21 by Herbivore |
I'm dealing in our actual results, not on what I think our results could or should have been. Sadly we don't get any points for the latter. |
no points, but plenty of pointers for our future progress.
when we were gaining points, but playing poorly under lambert, or scoring from every shot, people rightly said that it wasn't sustainable, and was bound to change, and we'd slip down the table.
the opposite is also true (we can't continue to consistently outplay teams and lose)
the opponents ppg shows the level of our task in those 6 game and how much we've over-achieved against the norm
https://www.soccerstats.com/formtable.asp?league=england3 | |
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| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 11:47 - Nov 22 with 341 views | positivity |
| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 11:44 - Nov 22 by Herbivore |
Although I think evidence of that ongoing improvement is somewhat limited personally, given our form has actually dipped slightly of late. And if we're pointing at a 2-0 defeat at a badly out of form Sunderland as evidence of improvement then that rather smacks of desperation. [Post edited 22 Nov 2021 11:51]
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2-9 is a dreadful result tbf! | |
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| You'd probably still say we were unlucky! (n/t) on 11:48 - Nov 22 with 338 views | Bloots |
| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 11:47 - Nov 22 by positivity |
2-9 is a dreadful result tbf! |
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| He's not moving us "upwards" though..... on 11:50 - Nov 22 with 319 views | Herbivore |
| He's not moving us "upwards" though..... on 11:46 - Nov 22 by positivity |
no points, but plenty of pointers for our future progress.
when we were gaining points, but playing poorly under lambert, or scoring from every shot, people rightly said that it wasn't sustainable, and was bound to change, and we'd slip down the table.
the opposite is also true (we can't continue to consistently outplay teams and lose)
the opponents ppg shows the level of our task in those 6 game and how much we've over-achieved against the norm
https://www.soccerstats.com/formtable.asp?league=england3 |
Sunderland were horribly out of form and we gifted them a win. That's not something to celebrate. I wouldn't say we are consistently outplaying teams and not getting results either. Not sure if it's still the case but we were hugely exceeding our xG earlier in the season and were midtable on most attacking metrics so I don't really buy that we're playing really well to be honest.
And I don't really care about our opponents' PPG, I care about ours. The amount of twisting and caveats that have to be introduced to make out this season so far is anything other than disappointing really speaks volumes. | |
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| When Cook took over..... on 11:50 - Nov 22 with 317 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| When Cook took over..... on 11:25 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont |
Surprisingly, I am aware clubs have been promoted from this division.
I’m talking about teams that have completely gutted the squad and club off the pitch then waltzed to automatic promotion that same season.
Seem to remember Notts County tried something similar without success. But any others? |
We signed 19 first team players in the Summer. Blackpool signed 22 players last season and gained promotion. Recent seasons have also seen Barnsley and Blackburn gain promotion having signed 17 players, Rotherham and Wigan with 16 and even the likes of Wycombe, Hull and Coventry having high turnover (15/14 signings). That’s all within the last 4 years
This season 3 of the teams in the top 6 have signed 19 (Wycombe) and 17 (Wigan & Sunderland)
It really isn’t as rare as you seem to think it is, and none of those teams were signing players at the level we were shopping at in the Summer [Post edited 22 Nov 2021 12:01]
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| You'd probably still say we were unlucky! (n/t) on 11:51 - Nov 22 with 318 views | positivity |
| You'd probably still say we were unlucky! (n/t) on 11:48 - Nov 22 by Bloots |
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we were unlucky when we lost 0-9 to man utd (it should have been 0-8!) | |
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| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 11:51 - Nov 22 with 313 views | JDB23 |
| Unfortunately for me Cook has to go on 11:44 - Nov 22 by Herbivore |
Although I think evidence of that ongoing improvement is somewhat limited personally, given our form has actually dipped slightly of late. And if we're pointing at a 2-0 defeat at a badly out of form Sunderland as evidence of improvement then that rather smacks of desperation. [Post edited 22 Nov 2021 11:51]
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Anything less than a win tomorrow and we’ll be in relegation form over a 5 game period. Not sure how that equates to ongoing improvement. | | | |
| Very true.... on 11:53 - Nov 22 with 302 views | Bloots |
| You'd probably still say we were unlucky! (n/t) on 11:51 - Nov 22 by positivity |
we were unlucky when we lost 0-9 to man utd (it should have been 0-8!) |
....I "left" that match 3 times.
I kept getting talked back in.
I still have nightmares about it. | |
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| He's not moving us "upwards" though..... on 11:54 - Nov 22 with 288 views | positivity |
| He's not moving us "upwards" though..... on 11:50 - Nov 22 by Herbivore |
Sunderland were horribly out of form and we gifted them a win. That's not something to celebrate. I wouldn't say we are consistently outplaying teams and not getting results either. Not sure if it's still the case but we were hugely exceeding our xG earlier in the season and were midtable on most attacking metrics so I don't really buy that we're playing really well to be honest.
And I don't really care about our opponents' PPG, I care about ours. The amount of twisting and caveats that have to be introduced to make out this season so far is anything other than disappointing really speaks volumes. |
we were massively below our xPts earlier in the season (mainly due to poor defending).
the opponents ppg does matter, you're more likely to get points against felixstowe and walton than man city; the tarriff is far higher.
doesn't change the league table, but does provide pointers for the likely future performance. | |
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| When Cook took over..... on 11:57 - Nov 22 with 280 views | positivity |
| When Cook took over..... on 11:50 - Nov 22 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
We signed 19 first team players in the Summer. Blackpool signed 22 players last season and gained promotion. Recent seasons have also seen Barnsley and Blackburn gain promotion having signed 17 players, Rotherham and Wigan with 16 and even the likes of Wycombe, Hull and Coventry having high turnover (15/14 signings). That’s all within the last 4 years
This season 3 of the teams in the top 6 have signed 19 (Wycombe) and 17 (Wigan & Sunderland)
It really isn’t as rare as you seem to think it is, and none of those teams were signing players at the level we were shopping at in the Summer [Post edited 22 Nov 2021 12:01]
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wycombe and wigan haven't changed their manager and complete structure though, (not sure who you mean when you say hull)
your example of blackpool started poorly last season | |
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| When Cook took over..... on 11:57 - Nov 22 with 278 views | Darth_Koont |
| When Cook took over..... on 11:33 - Nov 22 by jayessess |
Wolves 2017-18 in the Championship. |
Yeah, they took it up a notch or three that year. Something like a 60 million loss that season. There was a decent churn of players but still a fair number from the season before including Cavaleiro and Costa who they spent a combined 20 million on. | |
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| He's not moving us "upwards" though..... on 11:58 - Nov 22 with 277 views | Herbivore |
| He's not moving us "upwards" though..... on 11:54 - Nov 22 by positivity |
we were massively below our xPts earlier in the season (mainly due to poor defending).
the opponents ppg does matter, you're more likely to get points against felixstowe and walton than man city; the tarriff is far higher.
doesn't change the league table, but does provide pointers for the likely future performance. |
We're 19th in terms of xG for according to this: https://footystats.org/england/efl-league-one/xg
That doesn't really tally with the narrative that we're playing great football, creating chances, and just not taking them. We've scored way more than would be expected based on our attacking play.
I didn't realise Felixstowe and Walton or Man City were in League 1, guessing we've not played them yet. | |
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