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It’s really simple. Ukraine was a sovereign country. Russia, US, U.K. and others recognised this years ago. As a sovereign country, it was free to join any organisation it chose, be it NATO, EU or the Boy Scouts. That they should be invaded on the pretext of a plateful of lies is appalling but no surprise, sadly. Russia’s action is indefensible.
Forget Russian TV. Putin intends to build their sphere of influence. There are huge economic and political benefits for them, let alone a 69 year olds’ place in history. Putin knows Russia is militarily strong now and can take what it wants. It’s his time and his chance. He gets the opportunist dynamic. Sanctions Boris just gets a bacon roll and a glass of something nice in Cabinet Board Room A.
But whatever Russki tv or any report says, what he is doing can never be right. NATO was never a threat to Russia. Neither was a sovereign state that has now been violated. If anything, the limp, pathetic response by the west has encouraged Putin to crack on.
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Putin declares war. on 08:34 - Feb 24 with 1534 views
Imagine being so low in the the KGB hierarchy that you get the TWTD forum as your manor in the 'destabilise the west' project, no wonder he seems angry.
[Post edited 24 Feb 2022 9:13]
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
Putin declares war. on 08:20 - Feb 24 by Coastalblue
Maybe because it's all a bit more nuanced than that. The NATO issue is undoubtedly part of the problem, but to suggest it's the only reason and that it justifies what Putin is doing is extremely simplistic.
There have been a number of discussions on here over the last little while, which addressed a number of factors around this, including your own take as part of the bigger picture.
Not really. It's pretty simple and quite clearly the main issue as reported by all major Western outlets:
This also goes into the historic behaviour of NATO as perceived by Putin.
(Apologies for using yet another BBC article, and not RT or whatnot)
I never justified anything. I just said that there is a simple solution to stopping the war. Ukraine joining NATO is unnecessary in the grand scheme of things and entirely provocative. Surely it's safer for both parties for it to be neutral. Whether it's morally right to ban an entire nation from joining NATO is a different question, but Ukraine's geographical position obviously cannot be changed.
Putin declares war. on 08:17 - Feb 24 by GlasgowBlue
And herein lies a problem. For economic sanctions to properly work, our economy also has to share the pain.
Putin knows that Covid has left western economies in a precarious position and he’s gambled on western leaders not wanting to put too much strain on their own finances. In the case of Johnson, who is a weak PM anyway, he has gambled correctly.
If we are serious then we have to ramp up the sanctions and explain to the general public why we are doing it and how it may well affect them.
Johnson wasn’t a pandemic leader and he’s certainly not a war time leader.
Firstly, Putin has been actively seeking to insulate Russia from the west ever since the invasion of the Crimea in 2014. Western imports of meat, fruit, vegetables and dairy were banned when sanctions were imposed.
Secondly, self-sufficiency has been accompanied by an attempt at diversification, with a deliberate policy pivot towards China. An agreement with Beijing — again in 2014 — paved the way for the construction of the Power of Siberia — a gas pipeline linking the two countries that opened in 2019.
China is the world’s second-biggest economy and its heavy demand for energy has been one of the factor pushing up global energy prices over the past year. Putin has already given approval for Power of Siberia 2.
Thirdly, Russia has used the money received from its oil and gas exports to build up substantial financial defences. Moscow is sitting on foreign currency reserves of about $500bn (£369bn) and, by international standards, has extremely low levels of national debt. Whereas the pandemic has sent the UK’s national debt to GDP ratio spiralling above 100%, in Russia it is below 20%.
That financial firepower may well blunt one of the weapons the west intends to deploy in response to the crisis in Ukraine: a ban on Russia issuing or trading its sovereign debt in London and New York. The amount of bonds Russia needs to sell is relatively small, and only 10% of the total was bought by non-residents last year.
Finally, Putin has some weapons of his own that he may be tempted to use in retaliation against western sanctions. Russia provides 40% of the EU’s oil and coal, and 20% of its gas. It is the world’s biggest exporter of fertiliser and of palladium, a crucial component for the auto industry because it is needed to make catalytic converters.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
You do know the ordinary Russian people are innocent in this? You do also know that Russia has it's own nuclear weapons?
Ordinary Ukrainians are innocent too. As will be ordinary Europeans if we allow him to continue.
Hit him quick and hard. Before he has chance to gather his senses. Hit him again. Finish Russia for good. They've been a dark cloud over Europe for 70 years.
"Blueas is a great guy, one of the best." - Donald Trump
Putin declares war. on 08:39 - Feb 24 by blueasfook
Ordinary Ukrainians are innocent too. As will be ordinary Europeans if we allow him to continue.
Hit him quick and hard. Before he has chance to gather his senses. Hit him again. Finish Russia for good. They've been a dark cloud over Europe for 70 years.
....and the mentalist of the day award goes to.....
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Putin declares war. on 08:39 - Feb 24 by blueasfook
Ordinary Ukrainians are innocent too. As will be ordinary Europeans if we allow him to continue.
Hit him quick and hard. Before he has chance to gather his senses. Hit him again. Finish Russia for good. They've been a dark cloud over Europe for 70 years.
Putin declares war. on 08:39 - Feb 24 by blueasfook
Ordinary Ukrainians are innocent too. As will be ordinary Europeans if we allow him to continue.
Hit him quick and hard. Before he has chance to gather his senses. Hit him again. Finish Russia for good. They've been a dark cloud over Europe for 70 years.
[Redacted]
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Putin declares war. on 08:44 - Feb 24 with 1444 views
I dont care. I've lived a good chunk of my life. Feel a bit sorry for my son leaving him to a post-holocaust world but hey. Had enough of living with the threat of Russia. Bring it on Vlad! Let's get nuclear on his ass.
"Blueas is a great guy, one of the best." - Donald Trump
Putin declares war. on 08:44 - Feb 24 by blueasfook
I dont care. I've lived a good chunk of my life. Feel a bit sorry for my son leaving him to a post-holocaust world but hey. Had enough of living with the threat of Russia. Bring it on Vlad! Let's get nuclear on his ass.
That argument might hold some water if Putin had tried to seriously negotiate, rather than making extraordinary and inflexible demands, then launching an entirely premeditated assault on a sovreign country upon the flimsiest of pretexts, causing unnecessary deaths (perhaps thousands of them, by the time this is over) and implicitly threatening to use weapons of mass destruction on anyone who interferes.
That's not the way a sane, rational statesman behaves. It is, however, characteristic of a warmonger who resorts to force in the first instance.
And a fool. This is likely to have consequences exactly the opposite of increasing Russian security. Sanctions, diplomatic opposition, an increased military buildup on the eastern borders of NATO, formerly neutral countries like Sweden and Finland seeking to join (for their own security, particularly the latter).
The bitterest irony is that it is unlikely Ukraine could have achieved NATO membership any time soon, even if the application had progressed beyong the "gentle feelers" stage.
I'm not supporting Putin, I'm not justifying or defending his actions, I'm just conveying the widely-reported reasons he gives for his actions, which a lot of people on here didn't seem to realise (not you).
Thanks for a good measured response. Two things you have assumed without clarifying / supporting:
- what are his demands and why are they extraordinary and inflexible? I understand he wants to demilitarize all the NATO (and non-NATO) countries that border Russia. That could be because he wants to invade or because he wants to protect his own country. I don't know but... (second point)
- You say Ukraine is a sovereign state but there's clear evidence it's a US puppet state (from the BBC transcript). All this implies that Putin is feeling threatened and is motivated by protection, not greed etc. Like I say in another post, there's no benefit to anyone for Ukraine to be part of NATO, so why push for it?
The accession of Ukraine to NATO would make not one jot of difference to MAD. It is "balanced" - in the sense that both sides could wreak catastrophic destruction upon the other - many times over.
We are no longer in a Cuban Missile Crisis era when missiles barely had the range to reach targets deep in the other side's homeland. Bases in Ukraine are not needed to threaten Moscow. For that matter, Ukraine's military is not going to tip the balance against Russia in a conventional war.
This is entirely about Putin's empire-building.
I might be repeating points in my other response, but what's the difference between Putin's empire-building and NATO's empire building? If it makes no difference, but it creates a perceived threat to one party, why not give him that assurance Ukraine won't join?
I'm sure neither of us have the mindset of world leaders, but I believe the big problem is big d*ck posturing on both sides. Getting Ukraine to join your side is the ultimate show of dominance
Putin declares war. on 08:19 - Feb 24 by BloomBlue
Sanctions will never stop Putin he will happily accept the people of Russia suffering just to achieve his goal of a new Soviet Union. His speech earlier was all about Ukraine as the aggressor it will be same about the likes of Poland etc after he has full control of Ukraine. Also any loss of income from the West will be countered in some degree by increases from China who will happily buy his oil etc. Many people predicated if you rely upon Russia for oil and gas they would eventually use it against us but were called old warmongers The only thing Putin understands is military opposition and that's why he also threaten the West this morning if they try and help. Sadly for the Ukrainian people they find themselves in the middle of this war. I hope for their sakes and the rest of Europe the other side of Putin's split personality wakes up.
Firstly, I think you mean 'predicted' and not 'predicated' in your fourth sentence.
More pertinently, in your closing sentence, you suggest that Putin has a split personality. Undoubtedly he has a heightened set of psychoses and neuroses but if he was on the verge of madness do you think he would have the support of his generals?
Just a point of note - your reply gave good valid reasons why you think Putin is wrong. But you didn't actually refute anything I've said
(not trying to pick a fight, just think people saw what I wrote and hysterically thought I'm a massive Putin lover, without actually reading the sources)
Not sure I read the bit where he/she excused Putin for being a macho prick. We have allowed a global situation to evolve of strong arm politics and 'might is right' on all sides. Our Emperors have no clothes and yet we all play ball and give them our consent.
Thanks. Exactly. I think Putin is an idiot. There are a lot of hysterical people on here who clearly haven't had their Ready Brek!
Putin declares war. on 09:07 - Feb 24 by WeWereZombies
Firstly, I think you mean 'predicted' and not 'predicated' in your fourth sentence.
More pertinently, in your closing sentence, you suggest that Putin has a split personality. Undoubtedly he has a heightened set of psychoses and neuroses but if he was on the verge of madness do you think he would have the support of his generals?
Yes sorry predicted
And yes I do think he would have the support of his generals. History has taught us that when a single person becomes so powerful even those around him don't question it.
Was Hitler mad? Most people think he was and many of the mistakes Germany made during that war was because the generals were afraid to question him.
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Putin declares war. on 09:21 - Feb 24 with 1216 views
Imagine if he was in the actual warzone. Far less bombastic then. In reality we should all probably prepare for cyber attacks this week: save information off the cloud and get hard copies.
All Putin is interested in is ensuring Ukraine doesn't join NATO. But the West refuse to give him that assurance. This is retaliation and entirely up to the West to stop it
I might be repeating points in my other response, but what's the difference between Putin's empire-building and NATO's empire building? If it makes no difference, but it creates a perceived threat to one party, why not give him that assurance Ukraine won't join?
I'm sure neither of us have the mindset of world leaders, but I believe the big problem is big d*ck posturing on both sides. Getting Ukraine to join your side is the ultimate show of dominance
The difference is Nato is a defensive collection of sovereign countries who freely sign up to membership. Ukraine joining nato is a huge red herring - they were nowhere near joining because they're already in a conflict. An excuse you're falling for.
As for Nato disarming or disbanding to appease Putun, how do you think your average Polish bod say, views that option this morning?
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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