| Putin declares war. on 10:43 - Feb 24 with 656 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 10:30 - Feb 24 by Mercian |
I am beginning to lose count on how many breakaway republics backed by Putin and recognised by only Russia and each other. South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Luhansk, Donesk and Transnistria not to mention the puppet state of Belarus. I might be missing some. Who's next I wonder, perhaps Bulgaria and The Baltic States, maybe even Finland. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 10:31]
|
Just to say I reported your previous post as abuse. Nowhere have I ever said I support anything that Putin is doing. I have not brought my personal opinions into any part of this discussion |  |
|  |
| Putin declares war. on 10:43 - Feb 24 with 649 views | Churchman |
| Putin declares war. on 10:21 - Feb 24 by blueasfook |
Well we didnt really win as such. We held them off for a few years until America joined the war. Hitler's 2 biggest mistakes in the war were not invading Britain and starting a fight with Russia. |
Actually, we did win the war. So did the Commonwealth countries (we were never ‘alone’ - that was Churchill’s rhetoric) US and of course Russia.
Revisionists have sought to belittle and play down Britain’s role in WW2. They are wrong to do that in my view. Part of the reason is American narrative of history that really only sees themselves. By that I mean that if you look at how they write DDay, you wouldn’t know the British and Canadians were even there.
Hitler’s biggest mistake was starting the war in the first place. It was a war he couldn’t win. Economically, it wasn’t sustainable. With the fall of France he came close and closer still with the Battle of the Atlantic. However, the Battle of Britain was lost and was something from which the Luftwaffe never recovered. Air power was the battle winner. Armies couldn’t function and ships couldn’t survive without it.
Hitler had no serious means of invasion in 1940, the difficulty of which was shown 4 years later. By the time they’d lost the BoB the crisis was over and the British army strengthened rapidly. |  | | |
| [Redacted] on 10:44 - Feb 24 with 647 views | victorywilhappen |
| Putin declares war. on 09:39 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
I'm not falling for anything.
Before 2014 there were no serious talks of Russia wanting to invade Ukraine. Then the pro-Russian government fell because of the Maidan revolution and direct interference from the US. Only then was there aggression from Russia. You're totally right that NATO membership is a long way off, but up until 2014 there was never a question of it, now there is
Like I've said in countless other posts, I don't support Putin. What I'm saying is the West / NATO are encroaching and Putin is retaliating (i.e. not unprovoked) |
[Redacted] |  | | |
| Putin declares war. on 10:46 - Feb 24 with 634 views | WeWereZombies |
| Putin declares war. on 10:21 - Feb 24 by blueasfook |
Well we didnt really win as such. We held them off for a few years until America joined the war. Hitler's 2 biggest mistakes in the war were not invading Britain and starting a fight with Russia. |
There is a very strong line of argument that the United States only became involved in the Second World War after our resistance to the Nazis had emerged as successful and we had started winning major battles (especially in North Africa, e.g. El-Alamein - although Sherman tanks supplied from the States had a big part to play in that one), oh, and the little matter of Japan attacking Pearl Harbour (which was a tactical move as Japan saw the opportunity to limit American expansion in the Pacific slipping away.) Although I think this argument is correct from a game theory point of view it does have to be tempered with the memory of the catastrophic loss of life that United States forces suffered, especially on the beaches of many Pacific islands and on D-Day. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 10:53]
|  |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 10:49 - Feb 24 with 617 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 10:32 - Feb 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You/Putin think the US forced all of NATO's countries to join??!?
I'm done with this. People keep correcting you and you just keep doubling down in your ignorance.
You are silly. You should be mates with blueas. |
For the millionth time, I am not Putin, I don't agree with Putin. I've never talked about the NATO membership of any other country in this discussion.
You are being offensive and abusive. Please read the measured discussions I've had with people who actually know what they're talking about, before responding further | |
| |
| [Redacted] on 10:50 - Feb 24 with 610 views | victorywilhappen |
| Putin declares war. on 10:22 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
They haven't forced them to join because they haven't even joined.
I think you're missing the point. I'm not defending Putin. Countries have every right to do what they want. But if that results in a war (rightly or wrongly), then these things have to be seriously considered |
[Redacted] | | | |
| Putin declares war. on 10:52 - Feb 24 with 592 views | Guthrum |
| Putin declares war. on 10:30 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
No, but it's not entirely the same. They were all about not allowing tiny upstarts to make Putin / Russia seem weak. Classic empire-retaining, but not empire-building |
Georgia was invaded to smack down an unfavourable government in another sovreign country, using conflict in a Russian-backed breakaway region as the excuse. There is no difference whatsoever. |  |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 10:53 - Feb 24 with 589 views | belgablue |
Accidentally upvoted this drivel |  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Putin declares war. on 10:54 - Feb 24 with 586 views | Coastalblue |
| Putin declares war. on 10:21 - Feb 24 by blueasfook |
Well we didnt really win as such. We held them off for a few years until America joined the war. Hitler's 2 biggest mistakes in the war were not invading Britain and starting a fight with Russia. |
Hitler had a zero chance of a succesful invasion of Britain, though I'm sure he would have disagreed. |  |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 10:55 - Feb 24 with 577 views | Churchman |
| Putin declares war. on 10:36 - Feb 24 by WeWereZombies |
My objection to your previous post was in the depiction of Stalin as 'thick', I see him as someone who was very cold and calculating. Britain still had considerable resources from Empire and sphere of influence to call upon (India, Australia, Canada, South Africa, Jamaica, New Zealand to name a few of the major ones) so Churchill didn't have to cement an alliance with the Soviet Union, he could have played a diplomatic game of 'we take care of the Western and African fronts, you take care of the Eastern front...and never the twain shall meet' (which is effectively what happened with China but China was in a state of civil war so there was little room for manoeuvre there.) |
You are right. He wasn’t thick. Borderline illiterate and crude maybe, but certainly not thick. Definitely cold and calculating and had no problem disposing of anybody he was even faintly suspicious of.
Churchill might have taken your approach I suspect had America been in the war, but in June 41 it wasn’t really like that. It was very much ‘the enemy of my enemy’ stuff, Britain, like America had chosen to wage a technical war rather than throw bodies at it WW1 style. Germany and Russia waged it with bodies and I believe Churchill was more than happy to see them meat grind their armies away that way and provide material support - which was important to Russia’s survival. A link to an interesting article on this is below.
https://www.historynet.com/did-russia-really-go-it-alone-how-lend-lease-helped-t
[Post edited 24 Feb 2022 11:01]
| | | |
| Putin declares war. on 10:56 - Feb 24 with 568 views | WeWereZombies |
| Putin declares war. on 10:40 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
Ok, encroaching with the Baltic states, and perceived encroaching with the shift in power in Ukraine. The possibility is now there, where it wasn't before.
What Putin has done / is doing in his own country is horrible but sadly no one has the power to stop him |
The crackdown on Alexei Navalny and his supporters over the last year or so is coming into very sharp focus now, isn't it? | |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 10:56 - Feb 24 with 571 views | Mercian |
| Putin declares war. on 10:43 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
Just to say I reported your previous post as abuse. Nowhere have I ever said I support anything that Putin is doing. I have not brought my personal opinions into any part of this discussion |
So calling someone out on a discussion board is abuse? You have gone from blaming the victim to playing the victim. |  | | |
| Putin declares war. on 10:58 - Feb 24 with 549 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 10:40 - Feb 24 by GlasgowBlue |
FFS!!!! Sovereign countries freely apply to join NATO. Putin's empire building involves invading sovereign countries. |
You may be right, but like I said in other posts, we don't know until the status quo is reset to how it was before 2014. It's tough on the Ukrainians to go back to how it was, but surely it's better than an invasion?
I know we've clashed on many things in the past, but it doesn't help you getting frustrated the whole time. I'm not pushing any agenda or imposing my opinions, I'm just playing devil's advocate like I have with all other discussions we've had. I'm trying to look objectively at how and why something is happening, without letting my own morals cloud the judgement. I really hope you can refrain from one word insults and personal political attacks in the future. | |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 10:59 - Feb 24 with 545 views | Guthrum |
| Putin declares war. on 10:06 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
But this was also in retaliation as it says in your link, after Georgia sent forces there in 2008. There's no doubt Putin wants to be seen as a big dog, but it's very naive to think the West don't either (not referring to you, but to others who have contributed to this thread) |
Georgia sent troops into what was legally its own territory, following shelling by separatist forces, in violation of ceasefire agreements. Whereupon the Russian invaded. | |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 11:01 - Feb 24 with 541 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 10:56 - Feb 24 by Mercian |
So calling someone out on a discussion board is abuse? You have gone from blaming the victim to playing the victim. |
You called me a Nazi. That's clear abuse.
I never blamed any victim. I'm looking into the reasons why Putin has invaded Ukraine. I never said he's right to do so. | |
| |
| [Redacted] on 11:03 - Feb 24 with 527 views | victorywilhappen |
| Putin declares war. on 11:01 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
You called me a Nazi. That's clear abuse.
I never blamed any victim. I'm looking into the reasons why Putin has invaded Ukraine. I never said he's right to do so. |
[Redacted] | | | |
| Putin declares war. on 11:03 - Feb 24 with 521 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
The downvote was for missing the point. Even if the US were involved in that, what does that have to do with countries voluntarily joining NATO compared to Russia taking them by force??! |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 11:03 - Feb 24 with 529 views | WeWereZombies |
| Putin declares war. on 10:56 - Feb 24 by Mercian |
So calling someone out on a discussion board is abuse? You have gone from blaming the victim to playing the victim. |
I think Wacko and, maybe surprisingly, Guthrum are showing strains of this thread becoming polarised so overplayed responses to some posts are not surprising, I think we have all done it. There is a good discussion to be had here, whether that surfaces is down to contributors, in the main, staying focused and reasoned - and backing up their viewpoints with the best resources they have available instead of becoming entrenched. | |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 11:04 - Feb 24 with 520 views | Guthrum |
| Putin declares war. on 09:03 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
I might be repeating points in my other response, but what's the difference between Putin's empire-building and NATO's empire building? If it makes no difference, but it creates a perceived threat to one party, why not give him that assurance Ukraine won't join?
I'm sure neither of us have the mindset of world leaders, but I believe the big problem is big d*ck posturing on both sides. Getting Ukraine to join your side is the ultimate show of dominance |
NATO isn't an empire, it's a mutual defence alliance. Members have the right to leave any time they wish (France did).
What if he demands that the Baltic States are kicked out of NATO, that Finland (independent since 1918) is not permitted to join? What about Norway, which always had a common border with the USSR/Russia and has been a member since 1949? | |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 11:07 - Feb 24 with 496 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Putin declares war. on 10:40 - Feb 24 by GlasgowBlue |
FFS!!!! Sovereign countries freely apply to join NATO. Putin's empire building involves invading sovereign countries. |
I didn't think anyone would need to spell it out, but there you go. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 11:08 - Feb 24 with 505 views | Guthrum |
| Putin declares war. on 11:03 - Feb 24 by WeWereZombies |
I think Wacko and, maybe surprisingly, Guthrum are showing strains of this thread becoming polarised so overplayed responses to some posts are not surprising, I think we have all done it. There is a good discussion to be had here, whether that surfaces is down to contributors, in the main, staying focused and reasoned - and backing up their viewpoints with the best resources they have available instead of becoming entrenched. |
I have, in the past, elaborated where the Russian position has a certain internal logic, from their point of view. I'm currently just disagreeing with what I believe to be inaccurate or unjustified statements (while endeavouring to remain polite).
I will admit, I'm quite angry about Putin's actions in this situation. Especially given the lack of actual or immediate threat to Russia, or even to the breakaway regions of the Donbas. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 11:09]
| |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 11:08 - Feb 24 with 495 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 11:03 - Feb 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
The downvote was for missing the point. Even if the US were involved in that, what does that have to do with countries voluntarily joining NATO compared to Russia taking them by force??! |
Well, installing a government who would be open to joining NATO is a perceived threat in the eyes of Putin. That's what I'm saying. | |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 11:10 - Feb 24 with 480 views | WeWereZombies |
| Putin declares war. on 11:08 - Feb 24 by Guthrum |
I have, in the past, elaborated where the Russian position has a certain internal logic, from their point of view. I'm currently just disagreeing with what I believe to be inaccurate or unjustified statements (while endeavouring to remain polite).
I will admit, I'm quite angry about Putin's actions in this situation. Especially given the lack of actual or immediate threat to Russia, or even to the breakaway regions of the Donbas. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 11:09]
|
Exactly. Stay cool...and keep elaborating, it really does help. | |
| |
| Putin declares war. on 11:10 - Feb 24 with 474 views | Mercian |
| Putin declares war. on 11:01 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
You called me a Nazi. That's clear abuse.
I never blamed any victim. I'm looking into the reasons why Putin has invaded Ukraine. I never said he's right to do so. |
When did I call you a Nazi? I suggested you were and appeaser. | | | |
| [Redacted] on 11:12 - Feb 24 with 456 views | victorywilhappen |
| Putin declares war. on 11:08 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
Well, installing a government who would be open to joining NATO is a perceived threat in the eyes of Putin. That's what I'm saying. |
[Redacted] | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
