| Putin declares war. on 11:13 - Feb 24 with 1588 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Putin declares war. on 10:49 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
For the millionth time, I am not Putin, I don't agree with Putin. I've never talked about the NATO membership of any other country in this discussion.
You are being offensive and abusive. Please read the measured discussions I've had with people who actually know what they're talking about, before responding further |
"what's the difference between Putin's empire-building and NATO's empire building?"
Your words. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Putin declares war. on 11:16 - Feb 24 with 1559 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 11:10 - Feb 24 by Mercian |
When did I call you a Nazi? I suggested you were and appeaser. |
It's pretty much the same thing. And completely unfounded.
Suggesting things go back to pre-2014 is in no way appeasing a dictatorship |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 11:20 - Feb 24 with 1541 views | Mercian |
| Putin declares war. on 11:16 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
It's pretty much the same thing. And completely unfounded.
Suggesting things go back to pre-2014 is in no way appeasing a dictatorship |
Appeasement is the same as Nazim. Really? |  | | |
| Putin declares war. on 11:20 - Feb 24 with 1542 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 11:13 - Feb 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
"what's the difference between Putin's empire-building and NATO's empire building?"
Your words. |
"In the eyes of Putin"
Also, I don't understand how it's suddenly news to you that the US / West also like to flex their muscles. Adam Curtis is an interesting watch if you haven't seen his stuff | |
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| Putin declares war. on 11:23 - Feb 24 with 1525 views | WeWereZombies |
| Putin declares war. on 10:55 - Feb 24 by Churchman |
You are right. He wasn’t thick. Borderline illiterate and crude maybe, but certainly not thick. Definitely cold and calculating and had no problem disposing of anybody he was even faintly suspicious of.
Churchill might have taken your approach I suspect had America been in the war, but in June 41 it wasn’t really like that. It was very much ‘the enemy of my enemy’ stuff, Britain, like America had chosen to wage a technical war rather than throw bodies at it WW1 style. Germany and Russia waged it with bodies and I believe Churchill was more than happy to see them meat grind their armies away that way and provide material support - which was important to Russia’s survival. A link to an interesting article on this is below.
https://www.historynet.com/did-russia-really-go-it-alone-how-lend-lease-helped-t
[Post edited 24 Feb 2022 11:01]
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Whilst it is true that Churchill quipped that if the Nazis had invaded Hell then he would have sent Satan military support I doubt that Churchill really trusted the enemy of my enemy is my friend line, there are many instances in history where it has led to a major power becoming a minor one. And thanks for that fascinating link, it is revealing that even after two years of war the United Kingdom still had the ability to supply the Soviet Union with tanks, aircraft, parts and technical support to such a degree. Shame we were still paying for Lend-Lease until 2001 though. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 11:30]
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| Putin declares war. on 11:25 - Feb 24 with 1513 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Putin declares war. on 11:20 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
"In the eyes of Putin"
Also, I don't understand how it's suddenly news to you that the US / West also like to flex their muscles. Adam Curtis is an interesting watch if you haven't seen his stuff |
I was responding to your assertion that you've "never talked about the NATO membership of any other country in this discussion". Well you have. You've likened it to Putin's empire-building. One is a club countries are free to join and leave, the other they have no choice. Even Putin knows that.
And with that, I'm out. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Putin declares war. on 11:33 - Feb 24 with 1485 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 11:08 - Feb 24 by Guthrum |
I have, in the past, elaborated where the Russian position has a certain internal logic, from their point of view. I'm currently just disagreeing with what I believe to be inaccurate or unjustified statements (while endeavouring to remain polite).
I will admit, I'm quite angry about Putin's actions in this situation. Especially given the lack of actual or immediate threat to Russia, or even to the breakaway regions of the Donbas. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 11:09]
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I'm enjoying discussing this with you, I'm just getting frustrated putting out all the fires from people who think I have a personal opinion about what Putin is doing.
My only opinion is that the West should reset things to how they were before 2014 (my opinion is that it's a lesser of two evils). If Putin continues his aggression, then he should be met with the full force of the law so to speak. I understand your point about Georgia etc as precedence for why we shouldn't take that risk. I don't really agree because the difference is that Georgia isn't a NATO state.*
I don't think anything I've said is unreasonable or could have justified you not being polite, and I hope you continue in your endeavours in the future. For now, I think we've come to a natural end to the discussion. Have a nice day
* I realise Ukraine isn't either, but it's more likely to become one [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 12:00]
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| Putin declares war. on 11:40 - Feb 24 with 1444 views | EdwardStone |
| Putin declares war. on 11:23 - Feb 24 by WeWereZombies |
Whilst it is true that Churchill quipped that if the Nazis had invaded Hell then he would have sent Satan military support I doubt that Churchill really trusted the enemy of my enemy is my friend line, there are many instances in history where it has led to a major power becoming a minor one. And thanks for that fascinating link, it is revealing that even after two years of war the United Kingdom still had the ability to supply the Soviet Union with tanks, aircraft, parts and technical support to such a degree. Shame we were still paying for Lend-Lease until 2001 though. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 11:30]
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Your comments about paying for Lend Lease lead me to another fascinating topic... the actual monetary cost of war
Planes, tanks etc cost big money and it is not exactly a competitive market. As we know, the cost is always what the market will bear
My Brother in Law is a bit of a military aviation buff has a book that lists all the details of every Lancaster bomber ever built.... when it was made and all the missions it flew on and its eventual fate
4 Merlin engines at £5000 each in 1943, maybe half a million each in todays money
All the airframe etc.... each Lancaster probably would be somewhere near £ 5 mill in modern coin
A quick glimpse through the Lancaster book revealed that the career of one ill fated plane was remarkably brief....it was flown into the side of a hill while it was being ferried from the factory (ok, MU for the pedantic) to it's first squadron.... £ 5 million worth of scrap metal without it even getting to the start line
War is a ruinously expensive business |  | | |
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| Putin declares war. on 11:44 - Feb 24 with 1418 views | Churchman |
| Putin declares war. on 11:23 - Feb 24 by WeWereZombies |
Whilst it is true that Churchill quipped that if the Nazis had invaded Hell then he would have sent Satan military support I doubt that Churchill really trusted the enemy of my enemy is my friend line, there are many instances in history where it has led to a major power becoming a minor one. And thanks for that fascinating link, it is revealing that even after two years of war the United Kingdom still had the ability to supply the Soviet Union with tanks, aircraft, parts and technical support to such a degree. Shame we were still paying for Lend-Lease until 2001 though. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 11:30]
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I don’t think the soviets paid a penny for the stuff we gave them in WW2 did they? We certainly did the Americans for their stuff right up to the 2000s, as you point out. Every last penny. We paid right through the nose for it. They got plenty of ‘extras’ too such as the Merlin engine (produced by Packard), the Mustang (paid for and developed for the British), base concessions and the Bletchley Park stuff.
Interestingly, the Americans were offered some of the DDay ‘funnies’ such as flail tanks, crocodile flamethrower, and bridging tanks but pride meant they refused them. Sadly, they would have been useful and saved a good few American lives.
I believe Churchill chose a pragmatic line with Stalin. I’m not sure if he chose the right one and let’s face it, he got plenty wrong.
I think from a wider viewpoint people forget that by 1941 we were out producing Germany by a good margin. Thanks to the Empire/Commonwealth and our ability to trade, there’s no way Germany could compete with us. They could never have won even if America and Russia had been left alone - in my opinion. The uBoat was the only realistic chance they had. |  | | |
| Putin declares war. on 12:13 - Feb 24 with 1352 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Putin declares war. on 10:15 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
Just looking at the timeline. 2014 under the Obama administration, Ukraine shifts to the West. Pro-Putin Trump gets in power, Putin chills out. 2 months into Biden's rule, Putin is showing aggression again |
Wow, so you have to be pro-Putin to stop him getting all aggressive? That doesn't support your argument as well as you think it does.... |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 12:16 - Feb 24 with 1343 views | Guthrum |
| Putin declares war. on 11:33 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
I'm enjoying discussing this with you, I'm just getting frustrated putting out all the fires from people who think I have a personal opinion about what Putin is doing.
My only opinion is that the West should reset things to how they were before 2014 (my opinion is that it's a lesser of two evils). If Putin continues his aggression, then he should be met with the full force of the law so to speak. I understand your point about Georgia etc as precedence for why we shouldn't take that risk. I don't really agree because the difference is that Georgia isn't a NATO state.*
I don't think anything I've said is unreasonable or could have justified you not being polite, and I hope you continue in your endeavours in the future. For now, I think we've come to a natural end to the discussion. Have a nice day
* I realise Ukraine isn't either, but it's more likely to become one [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 12:00]
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The only difference between pre-2014 and now is that a more pro-Western government is in power (however, the current President was elected in 2019 when corrupt old Poroshenko was turfed out and there were pro-Western administrations before 2010, as well), that Russia siezed Crimea and that parts of the Donbas broke away. Would the reset include those last two elements? |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 12:26 - Feb 24 with 1310 views | pointofblue |
From Putin’s point of view I see it as this as a comparison - Scotland has declared independence and has openly invited Russian troops over and shown a clear preference to moving towards communism over capitalism. How would the rest of the U.K., the US and the West react? Would we be comfortable with that or would we feel threatened? Would the West order Russian troops to not travel to Scotland despite it being a sovereign decision by an independent Scotland to invite them in?
I’m not saying this is as Putin or Russian sympathiser. I was dismayed when I saw that the invasion had started and, from the outside looking in, believe he is taking advantage of the situation to bring Ukraine back under Russia’s sphere of influence, possibly even to the point of it ceasing to exist. He has taken a sovereign decision and over-ridden it by force, no matter the death and damage it causes. And he’s doing it because he knows the West will not dare retaliate by force; at least not for a non-NATO country. | |
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| Putin declares war. on 12:30 - Feb 24 with 1299 views | OldFart71 |
With America seemingly taking a backward step by withdrawing troops from Afghanistan and Trump declaring that other allies should be putting more money into their spending on military resources it was a white flag to Putin. In or around ten years the UK Army strength has reduced from 120,000 down to about 70,000 and I do wonder how many of those are able to fight. It was the UK's policy to allow thousands of soldiers to leave the Army in the hope they would become reservists. This didn't happen as many left relatively young and then the Government offered large inducements for these soldiers to enlist as reserves. Again I believe many didn't. Whilst they are fairly well paid they have been, just as nurses and many other Civil Servants subjected to low pay rises since 2008. Even those working for contractors on military aircraft and far better off working on civilian aircraft. Just as in WW2 although the Government would say otherwise we are ill prepared for any conflict. | | | |
| Putin declares war. on 12:47 - Feb 24 with 1243 views | Reus30 |
Has anyone been monitoring flightradar?
Quite a lot of US military jets hoovering over Poland and Eastern Europe doing loops. I can only imagine the naval warfare/stand off that is happening now as well.
We are potentially only a handful of days from a full blown world war - China can join Russia and seize there chance to invade Taiwan and other smaller states. Heck, even North Korea and India might get in on this too!
Worrying times but obviously prays for the safety of civilians trapped in Ukraine right now.
And I feel like I need to end on a lighter tone.
What do Wacko and Pamela Anderson have in common?
They are both partial to riding Putin's peepee. |  | | |
| Putin declares war. on 12:52 - Feb 24 with 1211 views | WeWereZombies |
| Putin declares war. on 12:26 - Feb 24 by pointofblue |
From Putin’s point of view I see it as this as a comparison - Scotland has declared independence and has openly invited Russian troops over and shown a clear preference to moving towards communism over capitalism. How would the rest of the U.K., the US and the West react? Would we be comfortable with that or would we feel threatened? Would the West order Russian troops to not travel to Scotland despite it being a sovereign decision by an independent Scotland to invite them in?
I’m not saying this is as Putin or Russian sympathiser. I was dismayed when I saw that the invasion had started and, from the outside looking in, believe he is taking advantage of the situation to bring Ukraine back under Russia’s sphere of influence, possibly even to the point of it ceasing to exist. He has taken a sovereign decision and over-ridden it by force, no matter the death and damage it causes. And he’s doing it because he knows the West will not dare retaliate by force; at least not for a non-NATO country. |
Nicola has said that there is no way that is going to happen, pal - git yersell anuthir scenarioo...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60506126 | |
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| Putin declares war. on 12:55 - Feb 24 with 1201 views | NthQldITFC |
| Putin declares war. on 12:47 - Feb 24 by Reus30 |
Has anyone been monitoring flightradar?
Quite a lot of US military jets hoovering over Poland and Eastern Europe doing loops. I can only imagine the naval warfare/stand off that is happening now as well.
We are potentially only a handful of days from a full blown world war - China can join Russia and seize there chance to invade Taiwan and other smaller states. Heck, even North Korea and India might get in on this too!
Worrying times but obviously prays for the safety of civilians trapped in Ukraine right now.
And I feel like I need to end on a lighter tone.
What do Wacko and Pamela Anderson have in common?
They are both partial to riding Putin's peepee. |
"You are now in line.
Thanks for your patience.
Your estimated wait time is 20 minutes..."
All down to your post!  |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 12:57 - Feb 24 with 1190 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Putin declares war. on 10:58 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
You may be right, but like I said in other posts, we don't know until the status quo is reset to how it was before 2014. It's tough on the Ukrainians to go back to how it was, but surely it's better than an invasion?
I know we've clashed on many things in the past, but it doesn't help you getting frustrated the whole time. I'm not pushing any agenda or imposing my opinions, I'm just playing devil's advocate like I have with all other discussions we've had. I'm trying to look objectively at how and why something is happening, without letting my own morals cloud the judgement. I really hope you can refrain from one word insults and personal political attacks in the future. |
Time for this yet again...
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| Putin declares war. on 12:58 - Feb 24 with 1182 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 12:13 - Feb 24 by Ewan_Oozami |
Wow, so you have to be pro-Putin to stop him getting all aggressive? That doesn't support your argument as well as you think it does.... |
No, just give him the assurances that Ukraine will stay neutral | |
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| Putin declares war. on 13:05 - Feb 24 with 1146 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 12:57 - Feb 24 by Ewan_Oozami |
Time for this yet again...
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Well said | |
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| Putin declares war. on 13:09 - Feb 24 with 1128 views | jeera |
| Putin declares war. on 12:58 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
No, just give him the assurances that Ukraine will stay neutral |
To you the answer is to give him what he wants.
You could have saved pages by just stating that in your first post and leaving it there. |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 13:10 - Feb 24 with 1121 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Putin declares war. on 12:58 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
No, just give him the assurances that Ukraine will stay neutral |
He won't believe any assurances from the West in any shape or form.... | |
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| Putin declares war. on 13:15 - Feb 24 with 1073 views | hype313 |
| Putin declares war. on 12:58 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
No, just give him the assurances that Ukraine will stay neutral |
Why should they? they are a free country with an aggressor as a neighbor, surely it's up to them to decide.
Do you bow to bully's in your life? |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 13:17 - Feb 24 with 1061 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 13:09 - Feb 24 by jeera |
To you the answer is to give him what he wants.
You could have saved pages by just stating that in your first post and leaving it there. |
Or rather give him back what he had. And funnily enough I did - I also edited in an article showing exactly his immediate demands.
It's simply a question of whether you trust Putin to stick once these demands are met, or whether you think he'll up the ante. Nobody knows. But everyone is free to have an opinion. What I object to is people conflating this one localised opinion with being a dictator-sympathiser. Hence the endless pages | |
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| Putin declares war. on 13:20 - Feb 24 with 1303 views | pointofblue |
It obviously wasn’t a serious comparison, just to point out how the West would react if Russian troops were moving ever westwards. Look at the Cuban Missile Crisis (though that was weaponry rather than troops). | |
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