| Putin declares war. on 09:22 - Feb 24 with 782 views | DanTheMan |
| Putin declares war. on 09:17 - Feb 24 by BloomBlue |
Yes sorry predicted
And yes I do think he would have the support of his generals. History has taught us that when a single person becomes so powerful even those around him don't question it.
Was Hitler mad? Most people think he was and many of the mistakes Germany made during that war was because the generals were afraid to question him. |
Hitler survived multiple assassination attempts from his own troops, and then there was the July 20 plot which also included multiple generals. |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:23 - Feb 24 with 778 views | itfcjoe |
| Putin declares war. on 08:55 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
I'm not supporting Putin, I'm not justifying or defending his actions, I'm just conveying the widely-reported reasons he gives for his actions, which a lot of people on here didn't seem to realise (not you).
Thanks for a good measured response. Two things you have assumed without clarifying / supporting:
- what are his demands and why are they extraordinary and inflexible? I understand he wants to demilitarize all the NATO (and non-NATO) countries that border Russia. That could be because he wants to invade or because he wants to protect his own country. I don't know but... (second point)
- You say Ukraine is a sovereign state but there's clear evidence it's a US puppet state (from the BBC transcript). All this implies that Putin is feeling threatened and is motivated by protection, not greed etc. Like I say in another post, there's no benefit to anyone for Ukraine to be part of NATO, so why push for it? |
You can't honestly think that Putin feels 'threatened' by Ukraine?!
What threat do they provide? Russia would trample over them in a matter of days if it wanted to - and it appears this is what they want to. |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:24 - Feb 24 with 757 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 09:23 - Feb 24 by itfcjoe |
You can't honestly think that Putin feels 'threatened' by Ukraine?!
What threat do they provide? Russia would trample over them in a matter of days if it wanted to - and it appears this is what they want to. |
Threatened by NATO not Ukraine. If Ukraine becomes part of NATO |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:25 - Feb 24 with 750 views | hype313 |
| Putin declares war. on 09:24 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
Threatened by NATO not Ukraine. If Ukraine becomes part of NATO |
Do you think if Ukraine joined NATO they would suddenly bomb Russia? |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:26 - Feb 24 with 741 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 09:21 - Feb 24 by BlueBadger |
Pfft, antvaxxers, conspiracy loons and apologists for the violent, corrupt and bigoted aren't people. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 9:22]
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The one thing I do remember is calling you out for bullying someone who posted about football
Edit: initially misread your post [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 9:30]
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| Putin declares war. on 09:26 - Feb 24 with 738 views | blueasfook |
| Putin declares war. on 09:22 - Feb 24 by DanTheMan |
Hitler survived multiple assassination attempts from his own troops, and then there was the July 20 plot which also included multiple generals. |
Those plots only came about once the war turned and they were losing. All was good while they were winning and taking over Europe. |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:27 - Feb 24 with 741 views | Swansea_Blue |
Special shout out to the BBC this morning who have just 'both sided' this. Quite incredible during a broadcast that shows evidence from many sources of Russian troops entering the Ukraine from multiple directions.
They were doing so well too describing the evidence. Someone must have had a word in Lyse Doucet's ear though, as as soon as her colleague in Russia started condemning the "full invasion" she immediately said that we need to be careful about the stories coming out of "both sides" and that "the truth lies somewhere in the middle".
They're all as bad as each other innit. |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:29 - Feb 24 with 729 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 09:25 - Feb 24 by hype313 |
Do you think if Ukraine joined NATO they would suddenly bomb Russia? |
No, but Putin might, that's the point. I'm not Putin. He's clearly unstable but why antagonise him? He's been in power for many years and not shown signs of invading until very very recently (i.e. when Ukraine shifted more West) | |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:29 - Feb 24 with 718 views | WeWereZombies |
| Putin declares war. on 09:17 - Feb 24 by BloomBlue |
Yes sorry predicted
And yes I do think he would have the support of his generals. History has taught us that when a single person becomes so powerful even those around him don't question it.
Was Hitler mad? Most people think he was and many of the mistakes Germany made during that war was because the generals were afraid to question him. |
I don't think Rommel was too afraid to question him. |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:33 - Feb 24 with 700 views | DanTheMan |
| Putin declares war. on 09:26 - Feb 24 by blueasfook |
Those plots only came about once the war turned and they were losing. All was good while they were winning and taking over Europe. |
Even before that, there were rumblings but obviously they grew louder as the Nazis collapsed in the Soviet Union. | |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:35 - Feb 24 with 680 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Putin declares war. on 08:34 - Feb 24 by BlueBadger |
Imagine being so low in the the KGB hierarchy that you get the TWTD forum as your manor in the 'destabilise the west' project, no wonder he seems angry. [Post edited 24 Feb 2022 9:13]
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Where is CIL these days anyway? | |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:37 - Feb 24 with 668 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Putin declares war. on 09:24 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
Threatened by NATO not Ukraine. If Ukraine becomes part of NATO |
This is how it works:
1. Big empire on a contigous landmass breaks up so that some of its borders no longer abut an alliance that was previously formed to prevent that big empire expanding further
2. Some countries round the edge of that empire become independent and join said alliance to prevent ex-big empire trying to take them back
3. Some countries do not, because the Russian influence is still relatively strong there (Ukraine)
4. Ex-big empire now has a typical Russian Tsar/mad dictator in charge who wants to return the ex-big empire to its former greatness
5. Previously unattached countries (Ukraine) think, hmm, we could be in trouble here, wonder if that alliance might be of any use after all.
6. Mad dictator thinks, hmm, if Ukraine joins NATO, I won't be able to reclaim ex-big empire and I'll look a bit of an idiot to my people, who just love a strongman...
7. Mad dictator then starts issuing threats, conditions, gradually becoming more and more impossible for either the alliance or Ukraine to ignore or even consider complying with - sound familiar so far?
8. Alliance thinks hmm, can't be too gung-ho here, let's tread carefully..
9. No amount of treading carefully will appease the Mad dictator, who correctly assumes the countries that make up the alliance are weak and will vacillate and seizes the moment....
Only one guilty party here I'm afraid.... |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:38 - Feb 24 with 665 views | blueasfook |
Wow, he was a popular chap | |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:39 - Feb 24 with 655 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Putin declares war. on 08:39 - Feb 24 by blueasfook |
Ordinary Ukrainians are innocent too. As will be ordinary Europeans if we allow him to continue.
Hit him quick and hard. Before he has chance to gather his senses. Hit him again. Finish Russia for good. They've been a dark cloud over Europe for 70 years. |
If this is what happens when you "grow some testicles" I think I'll pass. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:39 - Feb 24 with 656 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 09:22 - Feb 24 by giant_stow |
The difference is Nato is a defensive collection of sovereign countries who freely sign up to membership. Ukraine joining nato is a huge red herring - they were nowhere near joining because they're already in a conflict. An excuse you're falling for.
As for Nato disarming or disbanding to appease Putun, how do you think your average Polish bod say, views that option this morning? |
I'm not falling for anything.
Before 2014 there were no serious talks of Russia wanting to invade Ukraine. Then the pro-Russian government fell because of the Maidan revolution and direct interference from the US. Only then was there aggression from Russia. You're totally right that NATO membership is a long way off, but up until 2014 there was never a question of it, now there is
Like I've said in countless other posts, I don't support Putin. What I'm saying is the West / NATO are encroaching and Putin is retaliating (i.e. not unprovoked) | |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:41 - Feb 24 with 643 views | blueasfook |
| Putin declares war. on 09:39 - Feb 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
If this is what happens when you "grow some testicles" I think I'll pass. |
So you're basically saying you dont want testicles? Figures! | |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:43 - Feb 24 with 635 views | Churchman |
| Putin declares war. on 09:29 - Feb 24 by Wacko |
No, but Putin might, that's the point. I'm not Putin. He's clearly unstable but why antagonise him? He's been in power for many years and not shown signs of invading until very very recently (i.e. when Ukraine shifted more West) |
No, he knows NATO and Ukraine offer no threat. None whatsoever. Stalin might have done because he was a thick bonkers Georgian who was paranoid about everything and everybody bar the bloke he saw in the mirror.
In this modern age, Putin knows exactly how it is. He knows who is weak, who is strong and he knows what he wants. That’s his strength.
You may not perceive Ukraine to be a sovereign state. Putin doesn’t care either way. I believe in any definition of the term Ukraine is. Part of the problem for the west is that when Crimea was swallowed eight years ago, the outrage lasted a few days. Blind eye time. Same with killings and poisonings.
I think Putin will get away with this, no problem. Baltic states next, then it’ll be all eyes on Romania, Poland etc. |  | | |
| Putin declares war. on 09:45 - Feb 24 with 614 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 09:37 - Feb 24 by Ewan_Oozami |
This is how it works:
1. Big empire on a contigous landmass breaks up so that some of its borders no longer abut an alliance that was previously formed to prevent that big empire expanding further
2. Some countries round the edge of that empire become independent and join said alliance to prevent ex-big empire trying to take them back
3. Some countries do not, because the Russian influence is still relatively strong there (Ukraine)
4. Ex-big empire now has a typical Russian Tsar/mad dictator in charge who wants to return the ex-big empire to its former greatness
5. Previously unattached countries (Ukraine) think, hmm, we could be in trouble here, wonder if that alliance might be of any use after all.
6. Mad dictator thinks, hmm, if Ukraine joins NATO, I won't be able to reclaim ex-big empire and I'll look a bit of an idiot to my people, who just love a strongman...
7. Mad dictator then starts issuing threats, conditions, gradually becoming more and more impossible for either the alliance or Ukraine to ignore or even consider complying with - sound familiar so far?
8. Alliance thinks hmm, can't be too gung-ho here, let's tread carefully..
9. No amount of treading carefully will appease the Mad dictator, who correctly assumes the countries that make up the alliance are weak and will vacillate and seizes the moment....
Only one guilty party here I'm afraid.... |
Maybe you're right, but this is all conjecture.
It just seems a coincidence that Putin wasn't interested in empire-building until 2014 | |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:47 - Feb 24 with 595 views | WeWereZombies |
| Putin declares war. on 09:43 - Feb 24 by Churchman |
No, he knows NATO and Ukraine offer no threat. None whatsoever. Stalin might have done because he was a thick bonkers Georgian who was paranoid about everything and everybody bar the bloke he saw in the mirror.
In this modern age, Putin knows exactly how it is. He knows who is weak, who is strong and he knows what he wants. That’s his strength.
You may not perceive Ukraine to be a sovereign state. Putin doesn’t care either way. I believe in any definition of the term Ukraine is. Part of the problem for the west is that when Crimea was swallowed eight years ago, the outrage lasted a few days. Blind eye time. Same with killings and poisonings.
I think Putin will get away with this, no problem. Baltic states next, then it’ll be all eyes on Romania, Poland etc. |
So Churchill was hoodwinked by having a drinking session with a thick bonkers Georgian? | |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:48 - Feb 24 with 591 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Putin declares war. on 08:20 - Feb 24 by BanksterDebtSlave |
....although wouldn't making some sort of time limited initial assurance have called his bluff and removed that 'excuse' from Putin's propaganda armoury. |
No because he didn't use NATO expansion as an excuse. He went into Ukraine in the pretext of defending the newly self declared independent states. |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:49 - Feb 24 with 585 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Putin declares war. on 09:41 - Feb 24 by blueasfook |
So you're basically saying you dont want testicles? Figures! |
I assume you don't know how much of a boorish moron you're coming across as? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:49 - Feb 24 with 574 views | BiGDonnie |
| Putin declares war. on 09:41 - Feb 24 by blueasfook |
So you're basically saying you dont want testicles? Figures! |
I read is as either he doesn't have any or the ones he does have are tiny? |  |
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| Putin declares war. on 09:50 - Feb 24 with 579 views | Wacko |
| Putin declares war. on 09:43 - Feb 24 by Churchman |
No, he knows NATO and Ukraine offer no threat. None whatsoever. Stalin might have done because he was a thick bonkers Georgian who was paranoid about everything and everybody bar the bloke he saw in the mirror.
In this modern age, Putin knows exactly how it is. He knows who is weak, who is strong and he knows what he wants. That’s his strength.
You may not perceive Ukraine to be a sovereign state. Putin doesn’t care either way. I believe in any definition of the term Ukraine is. Part of the problem for the west is that when Crimea was swallowed eight years ago, the outrage lasted a few days. Blind eye time. Same with killings and poisonings.
I think Putin will get away with this, no problem. Baltic states next, then it’ll be all eyes on Romania, Poland etc. |
I feel like I have to say thanks for an intelligent measured response (the state of this board :/)
You might be right, who knows. I just don't see the argument against resetting the status quo to how it was before 2014, where everything was in more of an equilibrium. Clearly if he continues his aggression after that, then we know the answer and his true intentions | |
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