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I might be repeating points in my other response, but what's the difference between Putin's empire-building and NATO's empire building? If it makes no difference, but it creates a perceived threat to one party, why not give him that assurance Ukraine won't join?
I'm sure neither of us have the mindset of world leaders, but I believe the big problem is big d*ck posturing on both sides. Getting Ukraine to join your side is the ultimate show of dominance
"what's the difference between Putin's empire-building and NATO's empire building?"
If you don't know the answer to this all hope is lost.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
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Putin declares war. on 09:54 - Feb 24 with 631 views
It just seems a coincidence that Putin wasn't interested in empire-building until 2014
Yeah he was. He was flexing his muscles, enlarging military operations, building up the forces, increasing nukes, staking claims to the arctic, etc., since he got the presidency properly in 2000. And his modus operandi hasn't seemingly changed - alway making himself out as the victim as a pretence to build strength.
Before 2014 there were no serious talks of Russia wanting to invade Ukraine. Then the pro-Russian government fell because of the Maidan revolution and direct interference from the US. Only then was there aggression from Russia. You're totally right that NATO membership is a long way off, but up until 2014 there was never a question of it, now there is
Like I've said in countless other posts, I don't support Putin. What I'm saying is the West / NATO are encroaching and Putin is retaliating (i.e. not unprovoked)
So, Putin was happy with the situation in Ukraine when it was effectively under his control like Belarus but when the country decided to go a different way he decided to take them over by force? I think you have a very insightful view on a dictator who eliminates any dissension to his rule.
I see now why NATO is the problem.
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Putin declares war. on 09:58 - Feb 24 with 607 views
I feel like I have to say thanks for an intelligent measured response (the state of this board :/)
You might be right, who knows. I just don't see the argument against resetting the status quo to how it was before 2014, where everything was in more of an equilibrium. Clearly if he continues his aggression after that, then we know the answer and his true intentions
I almost gave that an uppie but then I remembered this:
'Moscow’s aggressive reaction to its long-simmering tensions with Georgia announced Russia’s reemergence as a military power, and paved the way for its controversial dealings with another former Soviet republic, Ukraine, beginning in 2014.'
It just seems a coincidence that Putin wasn't interested in empire-building until 2014
"It just seems a coincidence that Putin wasn't interested in empire-building until 2014"
How do you know that? Maybe he wasn't in a position to do so then - look at everything that has happened since...Brext, Trump, etc......maybe now he feels he is in a position to do so, having done all that preparatory work....
You are the obsolete SRN4 to my Fairey Rotodyne....
Before 2014 there were no serious talks of Russia wanting to invade Ukraine. Then the pro-Russian government fell because of the Maidan revolution and direct interference from the US. Only then was there aggression from Russia. You're totally right that NATO membership is a long way off, but up until 2014 there was never a question of it, now there is
Like I've said in countless other posts, I don't support Putin. What I'm saying is the West / NATO are encroaching and Putin is retaliating (i.e. not unprovoked)
Countries have a right to determine their own alliances and if they wish to join organisations like the EU or indeed NATO.
You make it sound like nato has forced them to join. And they haven’t.
I despise your line of argument. Especially at a time when people are being killed by an aggressor who is a dictator and acting like hitler.
'Moscow’s aggressive reaction to its long-simmering tensions with Georgia announced Russia’s reemergence as a military power, and paved the way for its controversial dealings with another former Soviet republic, Ukraine, beginning in 2014.'
But this was also in retaliation as it says in your link, after Georgia sent forces there in 2008. There's no doubt Putin wants to be seen as a big dog, but it's very naive to think the West don't either (not referring to you, but to others who have contributed to this thread)
Putin declares war. on 09:47 - Feb 24 by WeWereZombies
So Churchill was hoodwinked by having a drinking session with a thick bonkers Georgian?
He didn’t have a choice. Britain’s power was waning, Churchill knew it, Hitler was the main threat - a shared enemy. Power games, principally between US/USSR. As for a drink, Churchill couldn’t keep his hands off it. He was never going to turn down one of Joe’s cocktails.
Britain came very close to declaring war on Russia over Finland, remember. Everybody loathed Stalin not least the Russians, but boy was he feared.
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Putin declares war. on 10:08 - Feb 24 with 538 views
Putin declares war. on 09:38 - Feb 24 by blueasfook
Wow, he was a popular chap
According to new government guidelines on 'balanced' history teaching, it should be pointed out that yes, whilst he DID have some odd beliefs, he painted a few very nice pictures as well.
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
As a side issue, there will be millions of refugees seeking shelter in the coming days. Hopefully they will be treated with respect and sympathy wherever they find themselves.
Yep, so let's hope 'we' (the UK govt and several major supporting media outlets) soften our stance of victimising and weaponising refugees for political ends. It's quite right that that people should highlight the excellent work done by refugee charities and support them, as Glassers has done, so I'll link again below. I fear it's nowhere near enough though - we should be demanding more from our politicians on this and not be supporting people who use human suffering as a tool for personal gain.
I'm not supporting Putin, I'm not justifying or defending his actions, I'm just conveying the widely-reported reasons he gives for his actions, which a lot of people on here didn't seem to realise (not you).
Thanks for a good measured response. Two things you have assumed without clarifying / supporting:
- what are his demands and why are they extraordinary and inflexible? I understand he wants to demilitarize all the NATO (and non-NATO) countries that border Russia. That could be because he wants to invade or because he wants to protect his own country. I don't know but... (second point)
- You say Ukraine is a sovereign state but there's clear evidence it's a US puppet state (from the BBC transcript). All this implies that Putin is feeling threatened and is motivated by protection, not greed etc. Like I say in another post, there's no benefit to anyone for Ukraine to be part of NATO, so why push for it?
Extraordinary in that he is demanding to dictate the foreign policy and alliances of another nation (which is not actively threatening him or his own allies) and inflexible in that he has stated Russia's demands are 'non-negotiable' and has not taken up offers of summit meetings and other diplomacy (c.f. the double-dealing with Macron).
Ukraine is a sovreign nation, irrespective of who is in power and who might have influenced that (the Russians themselves helped prop up Lukashenko in Belarus after a disputed election and then based troops there). Also, that was not the justification Putin used, but some guff about Ukraine having no historical basis.
Putin declares war. on 10:09 - Feb 24 by BlueBadger
According to new government guidelines on 'balanced' history teaching, it should be pointed out that yes, whilst he DID have some odd beliefs, he painted a few very nice pictures as well.
Some people say he committed unimaginable, barbaric atrocities, while others point out his good record on employment, advancement of science and artistic talents. I like to think the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Putin declares war. on 10:01 - Feb 24 by Ewan_Oozami
"It just seems a coincidence that Putin wasn't interested in empire-building until 2014"
How do you know that? Maybe he wasn't in a position to do so then - look at everything that has happened since...Brext, Trump, etc......maybe now he feels he is in a position to do so, having done all that preparatory work....
Just looking at the timeline. 2014 under the Obama administration, Ukraine shifts to the West. Pro-Putin Trump gets in power, Putin chills out. 2 months into Biden's rule, Putin is showing aggression again
A wonderful clip....made much better by the inclusion in the foreground of a Soyer Stove....designed by a French Celebrity Chef in response to the appalling rations given to troops in the Crimean War
The British Army used to have thousands of them....most are still at the bottom of the South Atlantic in the remains of Arctic Conveyor
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Putin declares war. on 10:16 - Feb 24 with 464 views
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