| Labour to introduce PR 16:39 - Sep 21 with 3918 views | Mullet |
Thought this would be commented on given it's a step towards a fairer society arguably. Also has a strong Ipswich connection with Sandy Martin heading up the group.
Interesting to see it being driven by unions changing stance too. FPTP is almost as backwards as the deferential monarchist attitude. Given the wreckage Truss will almost undoubtedly leave behind for Labour after the next GE, electoral reform seems essential. Can't be like Brexit though, needs to be defined clearly for voters before passing it. |  |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 18:26 - Sep 21 with 1098 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour to introduce PR on 17:49 - Sep 21 by Mullet |
Yeah, but Corbyn. |
Basically, yeah. |  |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 18:59 - Sep 21 with 1049 views | HARRY10 |
Utterly worthless, when imposed upon a gormless populace.
I did actually have a long chat about this last week. Talk about bizarre. Both appeared to be long standing believers, but when pushed had not a clue.
Respect, their admitting to not knowing that having a 'slate' imposed on them means ie you do not vote for a candidate, but have the party assign you one, and once the votes from few tens of millions are counted what happens is who governs is decided by a handful of 'grey beards', with no accountability to voters whatsoever.
Yes FTPP produces incredibly distorted results (MP numbers), but I have yet to see any of the average voters having the slightest idea what PR in practice means. Much the same argument was had over VAR (football). The not too bright believed that very subjective decisions could be resolved with absolute certainty by the use of technology.
And would PR have stopped the simpletons from voting for habitual liars like Farage and Johnson ?
By all means let's have reform, right across the board, but let's not kid ourselves that we can enact any real change as long as the UK has an ever so 'umble, cap doffing mentality. |  | | |
| Labour to introduce PR on 19:14 - Sep 21 with 1058 views | Mullet |
| Labour to introduce PR on 18:59 - Sep 21 by HARRY10 |
Utterly worthless, when imposed upon a gormless populace.
I did actually have a long chat about this last week. Talk about bizarre. Both appeared to be long standing believers, but when pushed had not a clue.
Respect, their admitting to not knowing that having a 'slate' imposed on them means ie you do not vote for a candidate, but have the party assign you one, and once the votes from few tens of millions are counted what happens is who governs is decided by a handful of 'grey beards', with no accountability to voters whatsoever.
Yes FTPP produces incredibly distorted results (MP numbers), but I have yet to see any of the average voters having the slightest idea what PR in practice means. Much the same argument was had over VAR (football). The not too bright believed that very subjective decisions could be resolved with absolute certainty by the use of technology.
And would PR have stopped the simpletons from voting for habitual liars like Farage and Johnson ?
By all means let's have reform, right across the board, but let's not kid ourselves that we can enact any real change as long as the UK has an ever so 'umble, cap doffing mentality. |
One of the biggest drivers for Brexit was manipulating that sense of disenfranchisement through media lies and greed.
Constantly spitting bile and cartoonish crowing isn't really becoming of the left Harry. | |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 19:23 - Sep 21 with 1042 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Labour to introduce PR on 17:42 - Sep 21 by J2BLUE |
I suspect Tories and most Labour MPs will unite on the lie that the electorate have no interest in PR as we rejected AV so clearly couldn't possibly be interested in any other type of reform. |
It’ll be highly politicised for sure, much as the AV campaigns were. That was a glimpse of what athe Brexit referendum was to become. |  |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 19:28 - Sep 21 with 1031 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Labour to introduce PR on 18:59 - Sep 21 by HARRY10 |
Utterly worthless, when imposed upon a gormless populace.
I did actually have a long chat about this last week. Talk about bizarre. Both appeared to be long standing believers, but when pushed had not a clue.
Respect, their admitting to not knowing that having a 'slate' imposed on them means ie you do not vote for a candidate, but have the party assign you one, and once the votes from few tens of millions are counted what happens is who governs is decided by a handful of 'grey beards', with no accountability to voters whatsoever.
Yes FTPP produces incredibly distorted results (MP numbers), but I have yet to see any of the average voters having the slightest idea what PR in practice means. Much the same argument was had over VAR (football). The not too bright believed that very subjective decisions could be resolved with absolute certainty by the use of technology.
And would PR have stopped the simpletons from voting for habitual liars like Farage and Johnson ?
By all means let's have reform, right across the board, but let's not kid ourselves that we can enact any real change as long as the UK has an ever so 'umble, cap doffing mentality. |
What would you call the candidate selection process each of the major parties conduct other than the creation of a slate by a handful of 'grey beards'? |  |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 19:49 - Sep 21 with 1004 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Labour to introduce PR on 17:22 - Sep 21 by You_Bloo_Right |
From Wiki:
The United Kingdom Alternative Vote referendum was held on Thursday 5 May 2011 (the same date as local elections in many areas) in the United Kingdom to choose the method of electing MPs at subsequent general elections. It occurred as a provision of the Conservative—Liberal Democrat coalition agreement drawn up in 2010 (after a general election that had resulted in the first hung parliament since February 1974) and also indirectly in the aftermath of the 2009 expenses scandal.
The referendum concerned whether or not to replace the present "first-past-the-post" system with the "alternative vote" (AV) method. The proposal to introduce AV was rejected by 67.9% of voters on a national turnout of 42%.
On a turnout of 42.2 percent, 68 percent voted 'No' and 32 percent voted 'Yes'. Ten of the 440 local voting areas recorded 'Yes' votes above 50 per cent: four were Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh Central and Glasgow Kelvin, with the remaining six being in London. |
The LibDems made a massive faux pas of agreeing a coalition on the basis that there would be a referendum on changing the voting system without agreeing the exact wording of the referendum. If I recall correctly, the actual proposal that got voted on was nothing like what the LibDems had intended anyway.
It would be great for democracy if we could have some form of proportional representation and/or element of single transferable vote that meant electors could vote for who they really want to represent them without fear of wasting our vote. |  |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 19:58 - Sep 21 with 992 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour to introduce PR on 19:49 - Sep 21 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The LibDems made a massive faux pas of agreeing a coalition on the basis that there would be a referendum on changing the voting system without agreeing the exact wording of the referendum. If I recall correctly, the actual proposal that got voted on was nothing like what the LibDems had intended anyway.
It would be great for democracy if we could have some form of proportional representation and/or element of single transferable vote that meant electors could vote for who they really want to represent them without fear of wasting our vote. |
It was always AV from the start.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-referendum-idUKTRE6642N220100705
The question put to the vote was: "At present, the UK uses the "first past the post" system to elect MPs to the House of Commons. Should the "alternative vote" system be used instead"? | |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 20:05 - Sep 21 with 991 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Labour to introduce PR on 16:55 - Sep 21 by positivity |
a very weird form of pr, with no support from either of the 2 major parties |
Sorry for being a political nerd, but AV is not PR; it's a form of runoff voting where you rank candidates in individual constituencies, rather than being a means of allocating seats proportionally to vote share in multi-member constituencies. |  | | |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 20:11 - Sep 21 with 978 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Labour to introduce PR on 17:21 - Sep 21 by cbower |
Depends a great deal on the form of PR. However, almost any variant has to be better than a system which allows a single party with (more often than not) substantially less than than 50% of the popular vote in terms of turnout (even less if you calculate that figure on the whole electorate) to have whopping parliamentary majorities. Might also covince some liberals / Greens to vote tactically for Labour in some key marginals. [Post edited 21 Sep 2022 17:23]
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What I would really like to see is open list proportional representation, which allows you to vote for specific candidates on a party's list and prevents parties enforcing unpopular candidates on voters by putting them in high positions on closed lists. [Post edited 21 Sep 2022 20:11]
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| Labour to introduce PR on 20:24 - Sep 21 with 964 views | GlasgowBlue |
Yes their manifesto was completely different. But once they entered negotiations to go into coalition they watered it down to AV. So they knew what they were in for from the start. | |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 20:34 - Sep 21 with 951 views | BlueBadger |
| Labour to introduce PR on 19:14 - Sep 21 by Mullet |
One of the biggest drivers for Brexit was manipulating that sense of disenfranchisement through media lies and greed.
Constantly spitting bile and cartoonish crowing isn't really becoming of the left Harry. |
Harry isn't a real lefty, he's a Glassers alt account. |  |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 21:58 - Sep 21 with 915 views | nodge_blue |
We had a referendum on this and it was taken up. I can’t see any party can implement without another referendum. |  |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 00:17 - Sep 22 with 886 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Labour to introduce PR on 21:58 - Sep 21 by nodge_blue |
We had a referendum on this and it was taken up. I can’t see any party can implement without another referendum. |
We don't need a referendum on whether a majority believe a minority deserve voting equality. It is not the majority's right to decide. What we need is someone with the conviction to do what is owed.
Con: 13,966,454÷365= 1:38,264
Lab: 10,269,051÷202= 1:50,836
SNP: 1,242,380÷48= 1:25,882
LD: 3,696,419÷11= 1:336,038
If LD had the same ratio as Con, they would have had 97 seats. It is theft. [Post edited 22 Sep 2022 0:21]
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| Labour to introduce PR on 00:24 - Sep 22 with 873 views | XYZ |
| Labour to introduce PR on 19:49 - Sep 21 by Nthsuffolkblue |
The LibDems made a massive faux pas of agreeing a coalition on the basis that there would be a referendum on changing the voting system without agreeing the exact wording of the referendum. If I recall correctly, the actual proposal that got voted on was nothing like what the LibDems had intended anyway.
It would be great for democracy if we could have some form of proportional representation and/or element of single transferable vote that meant electors could vote for who they really want to represent them without fear of wasting our vote. |
(I agree with) Nick Clegg sold his ass to Zuck for $zillions and sold your and my kids down the river on student loans.
Beware Lib Dems bearing gifts or anything. | | | |
| Labour to introduce PR on 06:05 - Sep 22 with 836 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour to introduce PR on 00:17 - Sep 22 by Kropotkin123 |
We don't need a referendum on whether a majority believe a minority deserve voting equality. It is not the majority's right to decide. What we need is someone with the conviction to do what is owed.
Con: 13,966,454÷365= 1:38,264
Lab: 10,269,051÷202= 1:50,836
SNP: 1,242,380÷48= 1:25,882
LD: 3,696,419÷11= 1:336,038
If LD had the same ratio as Con, they would have had 97 seats. It is theft. [Post edited 22 Sep 2022 0:21]
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Agreed. It’s a question of democratic right vs. democratic wrong so there *should* be a cross-party agreement in place.
Also because a PR referendum and campaigning would quite possibly be even lower IQ and less based in reality than the Brexit lunacy. |  |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 07:27 - Sep 22 with 817 views | MattinLondon |
| Labour to introduce PR on 00:24 - Sep 22 by XYZ |
(I agree with) Nick Clegg sold his ass to Zuck for $zillions and sold your and my kids down the river on student loans.
Beware Lib Dems bearing gifts or anything. |
Never understood why the Lib Dems get such a bad press regarding their time in government- they saw a chance to get some influence (for the first time in decades) and took it. Their influence greatly reduced the more extreme of Tory legislation.
The Tory spin machine and their media masters cast their dark magic over Nick Clegg and the electorate brought it. |  | | |
| Labour to introduce PR on 09:25 - Sep 22 with 771 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
If this is passed by Conference then it is the best piece of news possible, politically.
It's an insurance against a One Party State if Scotland does become Independent.
It makes it harder for the Government to take Parliament for granted.
It will give a fair representation to the Greens and Lib Dems.
If implemented wisely it can make every vote count, whilst also preserving constituency representation. (See the Scottish Parliament system for details).
My only hope will be that it will be a manifesto pledge to deliver it, rather than a commitment to a Referendum on it. Proportional Representation requires a lot of explaining, and as Dominic Cummings famously described his Brexit strategy "If you're explaining you're losing". It would be so easy for a Referendum to be undermined by dirty money, mud slinging and "They're just trying to get rid of your much-loved backbencher because he is old and white and replace them with a Muslim Lesbian from a Party List" lies.
Great news, though. Progress, potentially.
Next on the agenda: repealing the Tory Enabling Act which gives powers to ministers to make laws without recourse to Parliament, and removes Judicial Review of Ministerial decisions. | | | |
| Labour to introduce PR on 09:58 - Sep 22 with 758 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Labour to introduce PR on 18:59 - Sep 21 by HARRY10 |
Utterly worthless, when imposed upon a gormless populace.
I did actually have a long chat about this last week. Talk about bizarre. Both appeared to be long standing believers, but when pushed had not a clue.
Respect, their admitting to not knowing that having a 'slate' imposed on them means ie you do not vote for a candidate, but have the party assign you one, and once the votes from few tens of millions are counted what happens is who governs is decided by a handful of 'grey beards', with no accountability to voters whatsoever.
Yes FTPP produces incredibly distorted results (MP numbers), but I have yet to see any of the average voters having the slightest idea what PR in practice means. Much the same argument was had over VAR (football). The not too bright believed that very subjective decisions could be resolved with absolute certainty by the use of technology.
And would PR have stopped the simpletons from voting for habitual liars like Farage and Johnson ?
By all means let's have reform, right across the board, but let's not kid ourselves that we can enact any real change as long as the UK has an ever so 'umble, cap doffing mentality. |
I'm sorry, but you are just describing one system of Proportional Representation there. There are many, and lots of them don't have the weaknesses you describe.
See the Scottish Parliament system for a modern, progressive form of Parliamentary Representation which preserves individual constituency MSPs, and comes close to ensuring that every vote counts, whilst making it very difficult for any one party to rack up such a large majority that a Scottish Government can take the Scottish Parliament for granted.
It is all explained beautifully in a display just off the main entrance in the Parliament, and is so simple that it can be summarised in one webpage:
How MSPs are elected
At Scottish Parliament elections, every voter has two votes: one for their constituency and one for their region.
With your:
constituency vote — you’re choosing an individual candidate to represent youregional vote — you’re choosing a party or independent candidate to represent you
Constituency votes are counted first. The candidate with the most votes in each constituency wins.
Regional votes are counted next, and regional MSPs are elected using a formula. This means that the number of seats a party gets in total across a region is about the same as the percentage of votes it receives.
This way of electing MSPs is called the additional member system (AMS).
How Scotland gets divided up for elections
Scotland is divided into 73 constituencies, each one represented by 1 MSP. Scotland is also divided into 8 regions (larger areas covering several constituencies). Each region is represented by 7 MSPs.
This results in 129 MSPs in total: 73 constituency MSPs and 56 regional MSPs.
https://www.parliament.scot/msps/about-msps/how-msps-are-elected | | | |
| Labour to introduce PR on 10:14 - Sep 22 with 740 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Labour to introduce PR on 09:58 - Sep 22 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I'm sorry, but you are just describing one system of Proportional Representation there. There are many, and lots of them don't have the weaknesses you describe.
See the Scottish Parliament system for a modern, progressive form of Parliamentary Representation which preserves individual constituency MSPs, and comes close to ensuring that every vote counts, whilst making it very difficult for any one party to rack up such a large majority that a Scottish Government can take the Scottish Parliament for granted.
It is all explained beautifully in a display just off the main entrance in the Parliament, and is so simple that it can be summarised in one webpage:
How MSPs are elected
At Scottish Parliament elections, every voter has two votes: one for their constituency and one for their region.
With your:
constituency vote — you’re choosing an individual candidate to represent youregional vote — you’re choosing a party or independent candidate to represent you
Constituency votes are counted first. The candidate with the most votes in each constituency wins.
Regional votes are counted next, and regional MSPs are elected using a formula. This means that the number of seats a party gets in total across a region is about the same as the percentage of votes it receives.
This way of electing MSPs is called the additional member system (AMS).
How Scotland gets divided up for elections
Scotland is divided into 73 constituencies, each one represented by 1 MSP. Scotland is also divided into 8 regions (larger areas covering several constituencies). Each region is represented by 7 MSPs.
This results in 129 MSPs in total: 73 constituency MSPs and 56 regional MSPs.
https://www.parliament.scot/msps/about-msps/how-msps-are-elected |
In practice what it means is that if the SNP won every constituency in a region with 50% of the vote in each, then they wouldn't be allocated any more seats on regional votes, which would then be divided up between the other parties based on their relative weight of regional votes.
It also means that if a eg Green supporting voter knew that their constituency was a tight run race between SNP (in this example who they might be able to tolerate) and the Conservatives (who they hate) then they could vote tactically for SNP in the Constituency and vote with their heart for Greens in the Regional ballot.
Similarly, an SNP voter in a safe SNP seat in a strong SNP region would be able to vote Green or Labour or Lib Dems or Conservative in the Regionals, and express a wider sense of their political values.
So it has within its logic an ability for the electorate to support a second party in the Regionals.
Applied to a Westminster Parliament this means that the 5 to 10% of people who support the Green Party would have a fairer representation in Parliament overall, even if they don't win another constituency than Brighton outright. And people who want to support the Conservatives in left wing areas aren't disenfranchised. | | | |
| Labour to introduce PR on 07:37 - Sep 25 with 641 views | GlasgowBlue |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 08:06 - Sep 25 with 602 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Labour to introduce PR on 07:37 - Sep 25 by GlasgowBlue |
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*Don't shoot the messenger, Don't down vote GB*
*Don't shoot the messenger, Don't down vote GB*
*Don't shoot the messenger, Don't down vote GB*
*Don't shoot the messenger, Don't down vote GB*
*Don't shoot the messenger, Don't down vote GB* | |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 08:19 - Sep 25 with 597 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Labour to introduce PR on 09:58 - Sep 22 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I'm sorry, but you are just describing one system of Proportional Representation there. There are many, and lots of them don't have the weaknesses you describe.
See the Scottish Parliament system for a modern, progressive form of Parliamentary Representation which preserves individual constituency MSPs, and comes close to ensuring that every vote counts, whilst making it very difficult for any one party to rack up such a large majority that a Scottish Government can take the Scottish Parliament for granted.
It is all explained beautifully in a display just off the main entrance in the Parliament, and is so simple that it can be summarised in one webpage:
How MSPs are elected
At Scottish Parliament elections, every voter has two votes: one for their constituency and one for their region.
With your:
constituency vote — you’re choosing an individual candidate to represent youregional vote — you’re choosing a party or independent candidate to represent you
Constituency votes are counted first. The candidate with the most votes in each constituency wins.
Regional votes are counted next, and regional MSPs are elected using a formula. This means that the number of seats a party gets in total across a region is about the same as the percentage of votes it receives.
This way of electing MSPs is called the additional member system (AMS).
How Scotland gets divided up for elections
Scotland is divided into 73 constituencies, each one represented by 1 MSP. Scotland is also divided into 8 regions (larger areas covering several constituencies). Each region is represented by 7 MSPs.
This results in 129 MSPs in total: 73 constituency MSPs and 56 regional MSPs.
https://www.parliament.scot/msps/about-msps/how-msps-are-elected |
Any chance that can be whittled down to a 3 word slogan for England, otherwise that’d go over a lot of people’s heads  | |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 08:21 - Sep 25 with 594 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Labour to introduce PR on 07:37 - Sep 25 by GlasgowBlue |
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Lol | |
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| Labour to introduce PR on 08:58 - Sep 25 with 580 views | NthQldITFC |
| Labour to introduce PR on 18:59 - Sep 21 by HARRY10 |
Utterly worthless, when imposed upon a gormless populace.
I did actually have a long chat about this last week. Talk about bizarre. Both appeared to be long standing believers, but when pushed had not a clue.
Respect, their admitting to not knowing that having a 'slate' imposed on them means ie you do not vote for a candidate, but have the party assign you one, and once the votes from few tens of millions are counted what happens is who governs is decided by a handful of 'grey beards', with no accountability to voters whatsoever.
Yes FTPP produces incredibly distorted results (MP numbers), but I have yet to see any of the average voters having the slightest idea what PR in practice means. Much the same argument was had over VAR (football). The not too bright believed that very subjective decisions could be resolved with absolute certainty by the use of technology.
And would PR have stopped the simpletons from voting for habitual liars like Farage and Johnson ?
By all means let's have reform, right across the board, but let's not kid ourselves that we can enact any real change as long as the UK has an ever so 'umble, cap doffing mentality. |
I appreciate some of your points, but we have to try something different at a time when we desperately need to change the status quo, and we have to retain hope that we can improve the standard of information people are acting on. It won't be perfect, but we have to try. |  |
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