| Stagnant comedians / shows 09:21 - Nov 17 with 5400 views | RobTheMonk |
Following on from Joe's Ricky Gervais thread, which comedians / shows have seen better days?
The Last Leg for me has become too stagnant. The sketch where they had the guy doing a zoom call as politicians was one of the worst comedy segments I've ever seen. Adam Hills looked embarrassed as how bad it was (although to be far, it wasn't done by one of the core group).
Frankie Boyle has lost some of his Mock The Week charm. New World Order always has a slightly odd feel to it and Frankie's rambling monologues at the end border on being too weird and whacky. |  | | |  |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:31 - Nov 17 with 1639 views | Pinewoodblue |
There are a few stagnant comedy creations on here. |  |
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| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:35 - Nov 17 with 1632 views | Funge |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 09:28 - Nov 17 by itfcjoe |
I guess a lot is personal taste, but agree re Last Leg - feels like it needs a fresh set of writers now
I think the problem is things move on so quickly with podcasts, YouTube shows etc that there is so much new content out there almost daily that you've got to stay ahead of the game or really zig when everyone zagging and do something totally out there.
There are comedians who do great stand up, like James Acaster, but then I find his podcast a tough listen at times - so much about chemistry between the two comedians in it. |
Acaster's Off Menu podcast with Ed Gamble is hit and miss - but when it's good, it's knockout.
Morgana Robinson episode is sensational. Rob Brydon episode ace too. |  | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:38 - Nov 17 with 1623 views | Chondzoresk |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 09:57 - Nov 17 by Dubtractor |
That Frankie Boyle NWO show is pretty crap tbh. As you say, the monologues feel really forced, and the whole thing so relentlessly lefty bumfest that any message they might have just loses credibility. |
I saw FB at the Regent a few years ago. It seemed staged for instance all the hecklers were conveniently seated in the front row. Not as funny as he was on MTW.
On the flip side Griff Rhys Jones and his childhood stories were hilarious at the Corn Exchange. |  | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:38 - Nov 17 with 1621 views | itfcjoe |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:44 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I have been a comedy promoter in the past and have had chats with some of the people mentioned in the thread, or some of their writers.
I'll confine my observations to white male stand up comedians, because they are who are being talked about in this thread. While a lot of what I say can be applied to female comedians and to comedians of non-White heritage, they can play different dynamics with their mostly white audiences.
It's a very weird life. Comedians create a persona who they have to "be" on stage, and talk with a consistent voice. Some comedians have acts which then subvert their own persona and voice, but it is very tricky and usually just seems muddled and confuses audiences.
There are two main ways to position the white male comedy persona:
As a high status individual looking down on the audience eg Jimmy Carr, Julian Clary, Stewart Lee
Or as a low status individual, the butt of the joke or playing stupid to create an alternative way of seeing things eg Emo Philips, early Milton Jones (hence the bad shirts and messy hair) Spencer Jones as Herbert.
The examples I give of low status comedians there are all also "Outsiders" in terms of their persona: characters who don't fit into society.
More recent years have seen the emergence of High Status Outsiders. Simon Evans as sneery right wing posh, Bill Bailey as highly competent musician dicking around.
Of those mentioned, I know James Acaster well, and have done since the very beginning of his career. His (absolutely brilliant, creative, genre redefining) stand-up positions him as a low-status outsider who doesn't realise that he is low-status.
But he has become very successful doing that. He is treated differently everywhere he goes. His "classic scrapes" are pretty much all true stories, but how do you get into classic scrapes once you have a tour manager accompany you to every gig?
More than that: touring is knackering, physically and mentally. Adrenaline pumping at 10.30 at night on stage is not conducive to good sleep. Hotel lifestyle is not conducive to a good diet, either. Constant travel is not conducive to good relationships. People cheering and throwing themselves at you is not conducive to good mental health.
So people reach a point where they want to do TV, Radio, Film, podcasts, whatever, to have a more straightforward life.
This is a relatively easy transition for High Status comedians. Asking probing questions of guests, or smarming on Jonathan Ross is absolutely fine for them. Jimmy Carr's persona chairing Cats does Countdown is the same as on stage.
But it is really difficult for a low status comedian to pull off this transition. James' best known podcast, Off Menu, saw him paired in a subservient position (ridiculous genie waiter) in contrast to Ed Gamble's High status Maitre D'. But James was the bigger star and more original comedian. Over time he has slipped largely from that role to equal status co-host. He is trying to transition away from low status. Why? Because job opportunities for low status individuals are in very short supply. He is trying to reposition himself to build his career. Ed Gamble has effortlessly moved to Judge on Great British Menu- the ultimate high status gig! James couldn't have made that move at that time.
The problem is that as James tries to transition to a persona more consistent with his level of fame, and one that will give him more job opportunities, he risks losing that which made him so funny: his persona as a low status outsider who doesn't "get" the world.
The reality is that before the pandemic he was knackered and burnt out, and had pretty much finished with stand up. I think these two or three years out will have given him the break he needed from writing and touring and hope that we will get more great shows from him in the future.
I suspect that they will be in a high status persona, though, that he will "find his voice" in that range, and then will more readily develop his career out of that. He is too good a writer not to be able to do that, but, in my opinion, he needs to make that adjustment through Stand Up, as that is where he defined his first comic persona. The key will be whether he can manage to be both high status and likeable, as Sean Lock was, rather than high status and aloof, as Julian Clary or Simon Evans, because vulnerability and liveability have always been key to James' persona. I have seen him do high status on stage at various points in his career and every time he lost the room. It confused people.
Ricky Gervais is interesting because he is a deeply egotistical man who had sufficient self-awareness to take the mick out of his ego. Or maybe it was Stephen Merchant doing that? But his post-success stand up persona is high status- I don't think it works as well. But then how can a low status comedian play an arena with 20 foot posters of themselves everywhere they turn? When Gervais has done the Golden Globes etc he has positioned himself as the cheeky outsider- the fool in the court of Kings and Queens jesting at them so that they can show what good sports they are. When he does his stand up/lectures to his adoring public I feel he loses a lot of the dynamic which makes him funny.
Way too many words!
Last Leg: brilliant and fresh in 2012, but hampered by having a one-mode comedian in Josh Widdicombe (high pitch incredulous voice equals punchline signal please laugh everyone) who was originally a low status outsider who is now host of Channel 4s biggest show, not a low status gig Adam Hills, who was always considered one of the nicest people on the comedy circuit, but maybe has become a bit spoiled by how easy Last Leg is, and Alex Brooker who hadn't got a substantial career in stand up to develop his skills before landing such a massive gig.
The big difference is that decent writers like James Acaster or Adam Hills can write and hone one hour long live show per year, for a time, but once they leave the full time comedy circuit and start doing TV they don't have the time to write all of their material and so are reliant on others writing for their voice and persona. And whereas they would have many opportunities to hone phraseology and delivery of a joke on the circuit, with material learned off by heart and embodied through repetition, on a show like Last Leg they might have a couple of rehearsals from autocue, and a director taking in their earpiece.
Even more too many words. Sorry everyone!!!
TLDR: comedians who become successful are forced away from the personas which gave them their comic voice, and no longer have time to write, repeat and embody their comedy routines. |
Fascinating post and thanks for taking the time to write it and share.
I've followed James Acaster for a long time, his classic scrapes on what was then the Jon Richardson show were absolutely brilliant and really enjoyed his 'Podcast Shuffle' on Fubar Radio.....think my Classic Scrapes book has a mention of that when he signed it for me at Colchester Arts Centre a number of years ago.
But now you spell it out I can totally see what you mean about how their status affects things, how his persona makes that next step very difficult - although am hoping his new podcast gets made re Pat Springleaf and have donated to the fund for that.
But again, all the stuff I like is his comedic low status persona and other stuff where he is maybe more himself (book about music of 2008[?] and accompanying pod) just haven't been for me.
RIcky Gervais best stuff was with Stephen Merchant, and I think his stuff since then has lost it's heart and subtlety......everything very formulaic and no real craft or storytelling arc to it. |  |
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| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:55 - Nov 17 with 1588 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:00 - Nov 17 by GavTWTD |
Nish hasn't done it for a series now. Rachel Parris (current host) was better suited to her regular segment imo.
I presume I'm in the minority of really liking Frankie Boyle. Love his monologues on NWO. Yes he was good on Mock The Week but he was probably holding back or edited out. I'll miss MTW. Enjoy seeing new comedians on there. I think that's a big loss to the Beeb. Wonder if Dave will take up the format.
I've never liked The Last Leg. Josh Widdicombe and Adam Hills aren't for me.
Cats Does Countdown has probably had its day now Sean Lock is no longer with us.
I realise this makes me a very bad person indeed but I find Rosie Jones a very difficult watch. Sorry. |
I love Frankie Boyle's monologues on NWO. I think they try and shoehorn to many other comedians on sometimes, but the closing monologues are beautifully written, with
a never-ending supply of visceral and vivid metaphors and similes to illuminate humanity's slow stumble to annihilation, like phosphorous flares pluming above the Somme before the shrill blasts on countless whistles mark the start of the great push over the top and into the arc of the machine guns (if I may clumsily pastiche). |  | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 12:13 - Nov 17 with 1560 views | Daninthecampo |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:00 - Nov 17 by GavTWTD |
Nish hasn't done it for a series now. Rachel Parris (current host) was better suited to her regular segment imo.
I presume I'm in the minority of really liking Frankie Boyle. Love his monologues on NWO. Yes he was good on Mock The Week but he was probably holding back or edited out. I'll miss MTW. Enjoy seeing new comedians on there. I think that's a big loss to the Beeb. Wonder if Dave will take up the format.
I've never liked The Last Leg. Josh Widdicombe and Adam Hills aren't for me.
Cats Does Countdown has probably had its day now Sean Lock is no longer with us.
I realise this makes me a very bad person indeed but I find Rosie Jones a very difficult watch. Sorry. |
I turn off my favourite shows if Rosie is on there, being a northern lesbian with a disability is her one and only joke( which isnt even funny)
She's on tv purely for diversity reasons!
Tim Renko also plays on his disabilities but hes actually very funny with it and his comedy is not purerly based on his disabilities [Post edited 17 Nov 2022 12:15]
| | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 12:15 - Nov 17 with 1550 views | EdwardStone |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:55 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I love Frankie Boyle's monologues on NWO. I think they try and shoehorn to many other comedians on sometimes, but the closing monologues are beautifully written, with
a never-ending supply of visceral and vivid metaphors and similes to illuminate humanity's slow stumble to annihilation, like phosphorous flares pluming above the Somme before the shrill blasts on countless whistles mark the start of the great push over the top and into the arc of the machine guns (if I may clumsily pastiche). |
I love Frankie's relentlessly downbeat view of life, it makes me feel like a paragon of joy and happiness.
I went to see tousel-haired Milton Jones in his show Milton:Impossible last night. I was slightly worried, becausing it can be disappointing to actually see one of your comedy heroes for real. I need not have worried; he was magnificent. His one hour set flew by in what seemed like moments, all filled with mirth.
And many thanks for your long essay, interesting and illuminating.....and kudos for a mention of all time fave....the enigma that is Emo Phillips [Post edited 17 Nov 2022 12:33]
|  | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 12:24 - Nov 17 with 1521 views | giant_stow |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:44 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I have been a comedy promoter in the past and have had chats with some of the people mentioned in the thread, or some of their writers.
I'll confine my observations to white male stand up comedians, because they are who are being talked about in this thread. While a lot of what I say can be applied to female comedians and to comedians of non-White heritage, they can play different dynamics with their mostly white audiences.
It's a very weird life. Comedians create a persona who they have to "be" on stage, and talk with a consistent voice. Some comedians have acts which then subvert their own persona and voice, but it is very tricky and usually just seems muddled and confuses audiences.
There are two main ways to position the white male comedy persona:
As a high status individual looking down on the audience eg Jimmy Carr, Julian Clary, Stewart Lee
Or as a low status individual, the butt of the joke or playing stupid to create an alternative way of seeing things eg Emo Philips, early Milton Jones (hence the bad shirts and messy hair) Spencer Jones as Herbert.
The examples I give of low status comedians there are all also "Outsiders" in terms of their persona: characters who don't fit into society.
More recent years have seen the emergence of High Status Outsiders. Simon Evans as sneery right wing posh, Bill Bailey as highly competent musician dicking around.
Of those mentioned, I know James Acaster well, and have done since the very beginning of his career. His (absolutely brilliant, creative, genre redefining) stand-up positions him as a low-status outsider who doesn't realise that he is low-status.
But he has become very successful doing that. He is treated differently everywhere he goes. His "classic scrapes" are pretty much all true stories, but how do you get into classic scrapes once you have a tour manager accompany you to every gig?
More than that: touring is knackering, physically and mentally. Adrenaline pumping at 10.30 at night on stage is not conducive to good sleep. Hotel lifestyle is not conducive to a good diet, either. Constant travel is not conducive to good relationships. People cheering and throwing themselves at you is not conducive to good mental health.
So people reach a point where they want to do TV, Radio, Film, podcasts, whatever, to have a more straightforward life.
This is a relatively easy transition for High Status comedians. Asking probing questions of guests, or smarming on Jonathan Ross is absolutely fine for them. Jimmy Carr's persona chairing Cats does Countdown is the same as on stage.
But it is really difficult for a low status comedian to pull off this transition. James' best known podcast, Off Menu, saw him paired in a subservient position (ridiculous genie waiter) in contrast to Ed Gamble's High status Maitre D'. But James was the bigger star and more original comedian. Over time he has slipped largely from that role to equal status co-host. He is trying to transition away from low status. Why? Because job opportunities for low status individuals are in very short supply. He is trying to reposition himself to build his career. Ed Gamble has effortlessly moved to Judge on Great British Menu- the ultimate high status gig! James couldn't have made that move at that time.
The problem is that as James tries to transition to a persona more consistent with his level of fame, and one that will give him more job opportunities, he risks losing that which made him so funny: his persona as a low status outsider who doesn't "get" the world.
The reality is that before the pandemic he was knackered and burnt out, and had pretty much finished with stand up. I think these two or three years out will have given him the break he needed from writing and touring and hope that we will get more great shows from him in the future.
I suspect that they will be in a high status persona, though, that he will "find his voice" in that range, and then will more readily develop his career out of that. He is too good a writer not to be able to do that, but, in my opinion, he needs to make that adjustment through Stand Up, as that is where he defined his first comic persona. The key will be whether he can manage to be both high status and likeable, as Sean Lock was, rather than high status and aloof, as Julian Clary or Simon Evans, because vulnerability and liveability have always been key to James' persona. I have seen him do high status on stage at various points in his career and every time he lost the room. It confused people.
Ricky Gervais is interesting because he is a deeply egotistical man who had sufficient self-awareness to take the mick out of his ego. Or maybe it was Stephen Merchant doing that? But his post-success stand up persona is high status- I don't think it works as well. But then how can a low status comedian play an arena with 20 foot posters of themselves everywhere they turn? When Gervais has done the Golden Globes etc he has positioned himself as the cheeky outsider- the fool in the court of Kings and Queens jesting at them so that they can show what good sports they are. When he does his stand up/lectures to his adoring public I feel he loses a lot of the dynamic which makes him funny.
Way too many words!
Last Leg: brilliant and fresh in 2012, but hampered by having a one-mode comedian in Josh Widdicombe (high pitch incredulous voice equals punchline signal please laugh everyone) who was originally a low status outsider who is now host of Channel 4s biggest show, not a low status gig Adam Hills, who was always considered one of the nicest people on the comedy circuit, but maybe has become a bit spoiled by how easy Last Leg is, and Alex Brooker who hadn't got a substantial career in stand up to develop his skills before landing such a massive gig.
The big difference is that decent writers like James Acaster or Adam Hills can write and hone one hour long live show per year, for a time, but once they leave the full time comedy circuit and start doing TV they don't have the time to write all of their material and so are reliant on others writing for their voice and persona. And whereas they would have many opportunities to hone phraseology and delivery of a joke on the circuit, with material learned off by heart and embodied through repetition, on a show like Last Leg they might have a couple of rehearsals from autocue, and a director taking in their earpiece.
Even more too many words. Sorry everyone!!!
TLDR: comedians who become successful are forced away from the personas which gave them their comic voice, and no longer have time to write, repeat and embody their comedy routines. |
interesting insight - cheers |  |
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| Stagnant comedians / shows on 12:51 - Nov 17 with 1497 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:14 - Nov 17 by MattinLondon |
Thanks for posting that - very interesting read.
Pardon my ignorance but please may I ask a question- some musicians are looked down upon for using song writers to help develop their sound. I think Noel Gallagher mocked Liam for having a team of songwriters and there are other examples as well. In the comedy world is in common practice for comedians to use writers to help their act? Or is it looked down upon and seen as not being talented, funny or clever enough to write their own material? |
Stand up is "supposed" to be the comedian speaking material that they have written. The biggest crime of all is to rip off somebody else's act. If someone has a "bit" that is similar to another comedian then somebody will tell them, and they might have a conversation with the originator, and possibly drop it if too similar, or tweak it.
Some comedians will make reference to the fact that others have writers, as part of stage "beef", but the reality is that everyone knows that it takes ages to build a tourable show, and once you have used material on TV then you can't use it again- it's called "burning" material. So whereas a musician has the curse of always having to play the same hits at every gig, for comedians it is almost the opposite.
Because of this comedians use writers for TV work. It's largely seen as a good thing because it spreads some of the money around from their success. So the joke is written in the voice and persona of the comedian to be used once on TV and burned.
Stewart Lee is one of those mocking others for doing this. He got round it by not appearing on TV for years, so that he had a large back catalogue to draw on for Comedy Vehicle, and more recently touring Snowflake/Tornado as Work in Progress, then as a finished, but developing, show, for a couple of years before filming it. He performed it for the last time at The Fringe this year, and the filmed performance was shown on TV a few weeks later. He also did a work in progress at The Stand Club every day during the Fringe, which is next year's show in embryonic form.
The really lazy comedians are the ones who have a rock solid 25 minute club set which they tour up and down the country for YEARS, never appearing on TV with it. Pre Covid there was a sweet spot where a decent club headliner could make a very good living doing this, maybe earning close to 100 grand a year if they also did corporate events and cruise ships.
Many comedians are chaotic and neuro-divergent, there is a huge over-supply of comedians wanting gigs, and so the vast majority of full time comedians don't earn anywhere near that. And then there are thousands of part time comedians, some of whom are very, very good but have responsibilities that mean they have to do I alongside a more solid career. | | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 13:15 - Nov 17 with 1468 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:00 - Nov 17 by GavTWTD |
Nish hasn't done it for a series now. Rachel Parris (current host) was better suited to her regular segment imo.
I presume I'm in the minority of really liking Frankie Boyle. Love his monologues on NWO. Yes he was good on Mock The Week but he was probably holding back or edited out. I'll miss MTW. Enjoy seeing new comedians on there. I think that's a big loss to the Beeb. Wonder if Dave will take up the format.
I've never liked The Last Leg. Josh Widdicombe and Adam Hills aren't for me.
Cats Does Countdown has probably had its day now Sean Lock is no longer with us.
I realise this makes me a very bad person indeed but I find Rosie Jones a very difficult watch. Sorry. |
Rosie Jones is great live. Really fcking naughty and delights in it. Flirts unashamedly, subverts expectations around Cerebral Palsy.
She had one of the best lines I've ever heard live, in her early sets. Her CP meant it was delivered very slowly, in short sections, but it absolutely makes the timing of the joke kill:
The best thing
.
.
about being disabled
(Very nervous laugh from audience)
.
Is nobody
.
.
Asks you
.
.
To babysit
.
.
Their kids
.
(Laugh)
.
In case you drop them
(Very big laugh)
.
.
.
And recruit them
(Massive laugh)
When you unpack that joke there is so much in there, but at heart she is saying "Let's be honest, every one of you who has kids was petrified that they would be like me" and she goes on to say, in lots of different ways, "but I love being me, so fck you!"
TV militates against this kind of precise working with her disability in this way- that timing is a live dynamic, and the pauses and beats will have been tried in different configurations until she got it to the highest laugh to word ratio possible. Whereas try and do that on a chat show and someone will interrupt.
The Mock the Week comment below this about everybody laughing too much at what she says is probably down to them having to film under "OK, everyone else, quiet for a bit, let's record Rosie's jokes now" which takes all the flow out and makes the laughter forced. But they all know she is a brilliant live comedian and would want her to succeed in her early TV appearances. | | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 13:40 - Nov 17 with 1439 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:16 - Nov 17 by GavTWTD |
A great read. I did hear from a friend that James Acaster had a meltdown on (a standup) stage, I *think* due to a heckle that he misheard. His Netflix special Repertoir is excellent. I think he's great and brave to have created his persona. What's he like in real life? |
When touring the Lasagna Hate Yourself show, James did an opening segment, in which he played a kind of high status version of himself before he then did "the show proper" in the second half. At the gig I promoted, and in other shows I have heard about, there was a self-destructive inter-action with an audience member. So it either was a manifestation of the anxiety and breakdown he goes on to describe, or a deliberate ploy to pick a fight with someone.
James' foundational experience of touring was as support to Josie Long. On that tour Josie was trying to move away from her "nice, friendly" persona, because Austerity was just beginning to bite. But calling Cameron a C*** multiple times meant that she, shall we say, confused and alienated her audience. So it is interesting that I witnessed James do something similar. But he was utterly burned out, saying that he wanted to quit stand up and so I think there was an element of deliberately wanting to either destroy things so he couldn't go back, or at the least wanting to "refine his audience" as Stewart Lee would put it.
In real life he is quiet around people he doesn't know, very loyal to his family and friends, and appreciative of people who have supported him long term. I don't really want to say any more than that! | | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 14:30 - Nov 17 with 1396 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 12:15 - Nov 17 by EdwardStone |
I love Frankie's relentlessly downbeat view of life, it makes me feel like a paragon of joy and happiness.
I went to see tousel-haired Milton Jones in his show Milton:Impossible last night. I was slightly worried, becausing it can be disappointing to actually see one of your comedy heroes for real. I need not have worried; he was magnificent. His one hour set flew by in what seemed like moments, all filled with mirth.
And many thanks for your long essay, interesting and illuminating.....and kudos for a mention of all time fave....the enigma that is Emo Phillips [Post edited 17 Nov 2022 12:33]
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I think if I had to pick one comedian as the most sure-fire, consistent performer, it would be Milton Jones. Glad you had a great time, and supported live comedy!
My favourite Emo Phillips joke:
I was walking through the park the other day and I suffered an asthmatic attack...
These three Asthmatics jumped out from behind a bush and beat me up!
It was my own fault...
I should have heard them waiting for me! | | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 15:56 - Nov 17 with 1349 views | tractordownsouth |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 11:06 - Nov 17 by MattinLondon |
I don’t actually find Rosie Jones funny at all but she’s obviously popular as she is on telly a lot and I think her shows regularly sell out.
Katherine Ryan I find to be a truly awful comedian - does anyone find her funny? |
Katherine Ryan is easily the worst comedian on TV. |  |
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| Yeah, she's definitely got her knockers. (n/t) on 15:59 - Nov 17 with 1339 views | Bloots |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 15:56 - Nov 17 by tractordownsouth |
Katherine Ryan is easily the worst comedian on TV. |
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| "Great to see you back on here mate, I was considering deactivating my account if you hadn’t returned" - TWTD User (Aug 2025) |
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| Stagnant comedians / shows on 16:05 - Nov 17 with 1332 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 14:30 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I think if I had to pick one comedian as the most sure-fire, consistent performer, it would be Milton Jones. Glad you had a great time, and supported live comedy!
My favourite Emo Phillips joke:
I was walking through the park the other day and I suffered an asthmatic attack...
These three Asthmatics jumped out from behind a bush and beat me up!
It was my own fault...
I should have heard them waiting for me! |
They probably thought it was a jolly good wheeze.... |  |
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| Stagnant comedians / shows on 16:11 - Nov 17 with 1314 views | clive_baker |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 14:30 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I think if I had to pick one comedian as the most sure-fire, consistent performer, it would be Milton Jones. Glad you had a great time, and supported live comedy!
My favourite Emo Phillips joke:
I was walking through the park the other day and I suffered an asthmatic attack...
These three Asthmatics jumped out from behind a bush and beat me up!
It was my own fault...
I should have heard them waiting for me! |
I like multiple jokes in one. Matt Green did one of my favourites, something along the lines of:
"My wife has always had a fantasy of making love on a bed of money, so I thought I would surprise her. I went to the bank, got the money, spread it all over the bed and later that evening we did it...
And if I ever do it again, I'll use notes.
Ever since then I have noticed a little change in her.
But at least I now know how it feels to come into money. |  |
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| Stagnant comedians / shows on 17:38 - Nov 17 with 1254 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 15:56 - Nov 17 by tractordownsouth |
Katherine Ryan is easily the worst comedian on TV. |
Put it this way:
I don't have a favourite Katherine Ryan joke. | | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 20:04 - Nov 17 with 1196 views | Fenland_Blue |
Today's comedy is generally awful, the same old faces doing the rounds on the same old tired programmes.
With Dave desperately hoping any old rubbish sticks and becomes their new Taskmaster.
No wonder Peter Kay sold out in minutes. |  |
| Up and mainly down, following Town since 88 |
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| Stagnant comedians / shows on 20:48 - Nov 17 with 1169 views | bluebudgie |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 15:56 - Nov 17 by tractordownsouth |
Katherine Ryan is easily the worst comedian on TV. |
Oh, I don't know, I think Jo Brand could give her a good run for the money!! |  | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 22:05 - Nov 17 with 1115 views | Blueastheycome |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:44 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I have been a comedy promoter in the past and have had chats with some of the people mentioned in the thread, or some of their writers.
I'll confine my observations to white male stand up comedians, because they are who are being talked about in this thread. While a lot of what I say can be applied to female comedians and to comedians of non-White heritage, they can play different dynamics with their mostly white audiences.
It's a very weird life. Comedians create a persona who they have to "be" on stage, and talk with a consistent voice. Some comedians have acts which then subvert their own persona and voice, but it is very tricky and usually just seems muddled and confuses audiences.
There are two main ways to position the white male comedy persona:
As a high status individual looking down on the audience eg Jimmy Carr, Julian Clary, Stewart Lee
Or as a low status individual, the butt of the joke or playing stupid to create an alternative way of seeing things eg Emo Philips, early Milton Jones (hence the bad shirts and messy hair) Spencer Jones as Herbert.
The examples I give of low status comedians there are all also "Outsiders" in terms of their persona: characters who don't fit into society.
More recent years have seen the emergence of High Status Outsiders. Simon Evans as sneery right wing posh, Bill Bailey as highly competent musician dicking around.
Of those mentioned, I know James Acaster well, and have done since the very beginning of his career. His (absolutely brilliant, creative, genre redefining) stand-up positions him as a low-status outsider who doesn't realise that he is low-status.
But he has become very successful doing that. He is treated differently everywhere he goes. His "classic scrapes" are pretty much all true stories, but how do you get into classic scrapes once you have a tour manager accompany you to every gig?
More than that: touring is knackering, physically and mentally. Adrenaline pumping at 10.30 at night on stage is not conducive to good sleep. Hotel lifestyle is not conducive to a good diet, either. Constant travel is not conducive to good relationships. People cheering and throwing themselves at you is not conducive to good mental health.
So people reach a point where they want to do TV, Radio, Film, podcasts, whatever, to have a more straightforward life.
This is a relatively easy transition for High Status comedians. Asking probing questions of guests, or smarming on Jonathan Ross is absolutely fine for them. Jimmy Carr's persona chairing Cats does Countdown is the same as on stage.
But it is really difficult for a low status comedian to pull off this transition. James' best known podcast, Off Menu, saw him paired in a subservient position (ridiculous genie waiter) in contrast to Ed Gamble's High status Maitre D'. But James was the bigger star and more original comedian. Over time he has slipped largely from that role to equal status co-host. He is trying to transition away from low status. Why? Because job opportunities for low status individuals are in very short supply. He is trying to reposition himself to build his career. Ed Gamble has effortlessly moved to Judge on Great British Menu- the ultimate high status gig! James couldn't have made that move at that time.
The problem is that as James tries to transition to a persona more consistent with his level of fame, and one that will give him more job opportunities, he risks losing that which made him so funny: his persona as a low status outsider who doesn't "get" the world.
The reality is that before the pandemic he was knackered and burnt out, and had pretty much finished with stand up. I think these two or three years out will have given him the break he needed from writing and touring and hope that we will get more great shows from him in the future.
I suspect that they will be in a high status persona, though, that he will "find his voice" in that range, and then will more readily develop his career out of that. He is too good a writer not to be able to do that, but, in my opinion, he needs to make that adjustment through Stand Up, as that is where he defined his first comic persona. The key will be whether he can manage to be both high status and likeable, as Sean Lock was, rather than high status and aloof, as Julian Clary or Simon Evans, because vulnerability and liveability have always been key to James' persona. I have seen him do high status on stage at various points in his career and every time he lost the room. It confused people.
Ricky Gervais is interesting because he is a deeply egotistical man who had sufficient self-awareness to take the mick out of his ego. Or maybe it was Stephen Merchant doing that? But his post-success stand up persona is high status- I don't think it works as well. But then how can a low status comedian play an arena with 20 foot posters of themselves everywhere they turn? When Gervais has done the Golden Globes etc he has positioned himself as the cheeky outsider- the fool in the court of Kings and Queens jesting at them so that they can show what good sports they are. When he does his stand up/lectures to his adoring public I feel he loses a lot of the dynamic which makes him funny.
Way too many words!
Last Leg: brilliant and fresh in 2012, but hampered by having a one-mode comedian in Josh Widdicombe (high pitch incredulous voice equals punchline signal please laugh everyone) who was originally a low status outsider who is now host of Channel 4s biggest show, not a low status gig Adam Hills, who was always considered one of the nicest people on the comedy circuit, but maybe has become a bit spoiled by how easy Last Leg is, and Alex Brooker who hadn't got a substantial career in stand up to develop his skills before landing such a massive gig.
The big difference is that decent writers like James Acaster or Adam Hills can write and hone one hour long live show per year, for a time, but once they leave the full time comedy circuit and start doing TV they don't have the time to write all of their material and so are reliant on others writing for their voice and persona. And whereas they would have many opportunities to hone phraseology and delivery of a joke on the circuit, with material learned off by heart and embodied through repetition, on a show like Last Leg they might have a couple of rehearsals from autocue, and a director taking in their earpiece.
Even more too many words. Sorry everyone!!!
TLDR: comedians who become successful are forced away from the personas which gave them their comic voice, and no longer have time to write, repeat and embody their comedy routines. |
POTY? |  | | |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 22:23 - Nov 17 with 1090 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| Stagnant comedians / shows on 10:44 - Nov 17 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I have been a comedy promoter in the past and have had chats with some of the people mentioned in the thread, or some of their writers.
I'll confine my observations to white male stand up comedians, because they are who are being talked about in this thread. While a lot of what I say can be applied to female comedians and to comedians of non-White heritage, they can play different dynamics with their mostly white audiences.
It's a very weird life. Comedians create a persona who they have to "be" on stage, and talk with a consistent voice. Some comedians have acts which then subvert their own persona and voice, but it is very tricky and usually just seems muddled and confuses audiences.
There are two main ways to position the white male comedy persona:
As a high status individual looking down on the audience eg Jimmy Carr, Julian Clary, Stewart Lee
Or as a low status individual, the butt of the joke or playing stupid to create an alternative way of seeing things eg Emo Philips, early Milton Jones (hence the bad shirts and messy hair) Spencer Jones as Herbert.
The examples I give of low status comedians there are all also "Outsiders" in terms of their persona: characters who don't fit into society.
More recent years have seen the emergence of High Status Outsiders. Simon Evans as sneery right wing posh, Bill Bailey as highly competent musician dicking around.
Of those mentioned, I know James Acaster well, and have done since the very beginning of his career. His (absolutely brilliant, creative, genre redefining) stand-up positions him as a low-status outsider who doesn't realise that he is low-status.
But he has become very successful doing that. He is treated differently everywhere he goes. His "classic scrapes" are pretty much all true stories, but how do you get into classic scrapes once you have a tour manager accompany you to every gig?
More than that: touring is knackering, physically and mentally. Adrenaline pumping at 10.30 at night on stage is not conducive to good sleep. Hotel lifestyle is not conducive to a good diet, either. Constant travel is not conducive to good relationships. People cheering and throwing themselves at you is not conducive to good mental health.
So people reach a point where they want to do TV, Radio, Film, podcasts, whatever, to have a more straightforward life.
This is a relatively easy transition for High Status comedians. Asking probing questions of guests, or smarming on Jonathan Ross is absolutely fine for them. Jimmy Carr's persona chairing Cats does Countdown is the same as on stage.
But it is really difficult for a low status comedian to pull off this transition. James' best known podcast, Off Menu, saw him paired in a subservient position (ridiculous genie waiter) in contrast to Ed Gamble's High status Maitre D'. But James was the bigger star and more original comedian. Over time he has slipped largely from that role to equal status co-host. He is trying to transition away from low status. Why? Because job opportunities for low status individuals are in very short supply. He is trying to reposition himself to build his career. Ed Gamble has effortlessly moved to Judge on Great British Menu- the ultimate high status gig! James couldn't have made that move at that time.
The problem is that as James tries to transition to a persona more consistent with his level of fame, and one that will give him more job opportunities, he risks losing that which made him so funny: his persona as a low status outsider who doesn't "get" the world.
The reality is that before the pandemic he was knackered and burnt out, and had pretty much finished with stand up. I think these two or three years out will have given him the break he needed from writing and touring and hope that we will get more great shows from him in the future.
I suspect that they will be in a high status persona, though, that he will "find his voice" in that range, and then will more readily develop his career out of that. He is too good a writer not to be able to do that, but, in my opinion, he needs to make that adjustment through Stand Up, as that is where he defined his first comic persona. The key will be whether he can manage to be both high status and likeable, as Sean Lock was, rather than high status and aloof, as Julian Clary or Simon Evans, because vulnerability and liveability have always been key to James' persona. I have seen him do high status on stage at various points in his career and every time he lost the room. It confused people.
Ricky Gervais is interesting because he is a deeply egotistical man who had sufficient self-awareness to take the mick out of his ego. Or maybe it was Stephen Merchant doing that? But his post-success stand up persona is high status- I don't think it works as well. But then how can a low status comedian play an arena with 20 foot posters of themselves everywhere they turn? When Gervais has done the Golden Globes etc he has positioned himself as the cheeky outsider- the fool in the court of Kings and Queens jesting at them so that they can show what good sports they are. When he does his stand up/lectures to his adoring public I feel he loses a lot of the dynamic which makes him funny.
Way too many words!
Last Leg: brilliant and fresh in 2012, but hampered by having a one-mode comedian in Josh Widdicombe (high pitch incredulous voice equals punchline signal please laugh everyone) who was originally a low status outsider who is now host of Channel 4s biggest show, not a low status gig Adam Hills, who was always considered one of the nicest people on the comedy circuit, but maybe has become a bit spoiled by how easy Last Leg is, and Alex Brooker who hadn't got a substantial career in stand up to develop his skills before landing such a massive gig.
The big difference is that decent writers like James Acaster or Adam Hills can write and hone one hour long live show per year, for a time, but once they leave the full time comedy circuit and start doing TV they don't have the time to write all of their material and so are reliant on others writing for their voice and persona. And whereas they would have many opportunities to hone phraseology and delivery of a joke on the circuit, with material learned off by heart and embodied through repetition, on a show like Last Leg they might have a couple of rehearsals from autocue, and a director taking in their earpiece.
Even more too many words. Sorry everyone!!!
TLDR: comedians who become successful are forced away from the personas which gave them their comic voice, and no longer have time to write, repeat and embody their comedy routines. |
V insightful.
James Acaster is v talented and excellent of the cuff. I always thought an anarchic panel show would be ideal for him. The buzzcocks reboot would be a good vehicle for him, though Greg Davies is superb on that |  |
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| Stagnant comedians / shows on 23:02 - Nov 17 with 1048 views | Whos_blue |
Fantastic insight from Mr Morehen.
Thanks for taking the time to pull that together.
A great read. |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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