| Central midfield.... 09:05 - Jun 5 with 20556 views | itfcjoe |
.....feels like a real problem area for me.
Sam Morsy (31) - Turns 32 at start of the season, spent most of his career at top of L1 or bottom end of Champ but is undoubtedly our best midfielder. His game seems to have gone to another level under McKenna, but what role will he find when he isn't the best player on the pitch every week?
Mass Luongo (30) - Turns 31 at start of season, as above really with level he has played at, but also has had serious injury issues.
Those 2 look far and away above the rest of our midfielders, but think at their age and with their careers to date, there must be serious questions asked about stepping up.
Lee Evans (28) - Is 29 before the season starts, for me he lacks the athletic ability in his game to play in the Championship, and when he has found himself at that level previously hasn't impressed.
Dom Ball (27) - Is 28 before season starts, the much maligned on here Andre Dozzell played more minutes in Championship than Ball for QPR in his last season there - his 3 seasons there saw the minute equivalent of 27 games, 24 games and then 14 games.
Pan Camara (26) - Relatively fast rise through non league and then L2, but really it's one good season in L1, which has been followed up by around 15 months of being unfit which is going to be hard to recover from and play a lot without issues.
Youngsters
Idris El Mizouni (22) - 23 at start of the season, of the back of a brilliant loan spell, but a big jump from L2 to the Championship and unless he comes in and blows socks off McK in pre season then he is likely to be elsewhere next season either permanently or on loan
Cameron Humphreys (19) - Fantastic prospect, and one I expect to see kept around the squad next season despite talk of a loan spell but won't be one who can play week in-week out in the midfield
We play a very dominant form of football, and that often relies on having players who are better than their direct competitors - I worry looking at that midfield that Morsy may be the only one who can step up and do that (and that is far from guaranteed) with potential for Camara to do so (but that is no more than hope rather than expectation).
Morsy aside though, I wouldn't be worried if we lost all our other senior midfielders as they all feel like squad options who can be relied on in specific situations and for a dozen or so games.
The step up is going to be huge, and think we need serious investment there and can see us going out and spending big fees on a couple of options there. Wouldn't surprise me if we ended up something like:
1 MEGA SIGNING
2 Morsy
3 Jack Taylor or similar
4 Luongo
5 Humphreys
With the rest either sold or loaned out |  |
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| Central midfield.... on 14:07 - Jun 5 with 2753 views | Vic |
Interesting analysis/thoughts Joe - cheers.
As you say later, I don't think age will be an issue. 31 or 32 is nothing these days. It will be more that Morsy and Luongo will probably not stand out as much in Championship level games. I'm sure they will more than hold their own - but will they be better than most other teams have? I'm not sure - in which case to have serious play off aspirations we will need to sign someone who is a step above them and be an incremental improvement!
Personally i hope we keep both El Miz and Humphreys - they seem like they have a chance to make it at the level we want to play at so let's give them a chance. I wouldn't be happy if we only ever buy in players to improve the team.
The rest? It seems a bit harsh, but I think we need to upgrade all of them.
Of course - the alternative is that the present players turn up for the new season and all step up a grade and show that they are better players than they have been until now. Great if they do - but I just can't see it happening with all of them. |  |
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| Central midfield.... on 14:10 - Jun 5 with 2723 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
| Central midfield.... on 13:52 - Jun 5 by FrimleyBlue |
I'm not sure Walton is a definite. He's a probable for sure. But part of me wonders if we need a gk with quicker and better footwork for football around the back. He's got much better over the season but he's not a natural at it imo.
Clarke... KM mentioned they had a role in mind for him.. could that be the fullback role he's had. Or something else in mind for him? |
Walton is fine. He had a rough first half of the year last year, way below the crazy high standards he set himself. But he came good. In terms of playing, not sure he actually made any mistakes leading to a goal from playing out did he ? |  |
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| Central midfield.... on 14:15 - Jun 5 with 2709 views | hype313 |
| Central midfield.... on 09:38 - Jun 5 by EssexBlueITFC |
Evans is a great option to have, a lot of fans have forgot how good he was at the start of the season before injury. Football fans have very short memories. |
He was, but you can't rely on him for a whole season, this is the second time he's broken down.
He's an Alfa Romeo. |  |
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| Central midfield.... on 14:19 - Jun 5 with 2673 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Central midfield.... on 14:10 - Jun 5 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
Walton is fine. He had a rough first half of the year last year, way below the crazy high standards he set himself. But he came good. In terms of playing, not sure he actually made any mistakes leading to a goal from playing out did he ? |
Not mistakes no. But tbh there werent many sides who tried to press our defenders.. something I think we are going to see alot more of next season.. I just feel at moments when we under under pressure he sent a fair few into the stands. Again tho. Didn't lead to goals from memory you are correct but just wonder if that's potentially something of thought of the management group in regards to maintain possession against sides who aren't afraid as pressing our backline. |  |
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| Central midfield.... on 14:23 - Jun 5 with 2662 views | Vic |
| Central midfield.... on 13:32 - Jun 5 by itfcjoe |
I think it will end up something like 8-10 in with 6-8 out - from starting line up at end of last season I'd probably say something along these lines
Walton - Definite
Clarke - Probable
Woolfie - Probable
Burgess - Unlikely
Davis - Definite
Morsy - Probable
Luongo - Unlikely
Burns - Unlikely
Chaplin - Definite
Broadhead - Definite
Ladapo - No chance |
Interesting!! Luongo and Burns unlikely  .
On the other hand I do think Burns is one we can likely to improve on. Surprised you only have Clarke as a probable. To me he's a dead cert starter. Woolfie as a probable make sense - I can see value in him and could see him sold if the right bid came in. (Though I really hope he doesn't go because I rate him as highly as any of our players. | |
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| Central midfield.... on 14:27 - Jun 5 with 2651 views | Woolfenthen |
Think the midfield is fine imo, yes agree its probably not long term but Morsy is the best midfielder we have had in a decade and will be absolutely fine next season. The rest can all hold their own in the Championship and would imagine if they were to become available would move to a Championship club to prove the point.
I do agree however that if we want to push the team to another level, the spine of the team needs upgrading and that includes the midfield, I would see Luongo therefore as cover for Morsy which does seem incredibly harsh considering how incredible he was last season.
Keeping the midfield as it is would probably mean a comfortable mid table position, but is certainly not a real problem area if you consider the options we have ad in previous Championship seasons where we finished comfortably in mid table. The issue comes with the ambition and expectation of the club, which is refreshing in that we are all pushing now for the upper reaches of the division.
Certainly will be an interesting summer to see the ambition of the club, however perhaps many of us are expecting us to run before we can walk.
I'd sooner have Morsy, Luongo, Ball, Evans over a Skuse, Douglas, Hyam, Tabb which held their own. |  | | |
| Central midfield.... on 14:29 - Jun 5 with 2619 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Central midfield.... on 14:27 - Jun 5 by Woolfenthen |
Think the midfield is fine imo, yes agree its probably not long term but Morsy is the best midfielder we have had in a decade and will be absolutely fine next season. The rest can all hold their own in the Championship and would imagine if they were to become available would move to a Championship club to prove the point.
I do agree however that if we want to push the team to another level, the spine of the team needs upgrading and that includes the midfield, I would see Luongo therefore as cover for Morsy which does seem incredibly harsh considering how incredible he was last season.
Keeping the midfield as it is would probably mean a comfortable mid table position, but is certainly not a real problem area if you consider the options we have ad in previous Championship seasons where we finished comfortably in mid table. The issue comes with the ambition and expectation of the club, which is refreshing in that we are all pushing now for the upper reaches of the division.
Certainly will be an interesting summer to see the ambition of the club, however perhaps many of us are expecting us to run before we can walk.
I'd sooner have Morsy, Luongo, Ball, Evans over a Skuse, Douglas, Hyam, Tabb which held their own. |
Regarding Morsy..
He was released by a championship club. Was it a wage reason or performance? | |
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| Central midfield.... on 14:31 - Jun 5 with 2619 views | itfcjoe |
| Central midfield.... on 14:27 - Jun 5 by Woolfenthen |
Think the midfield is fine imo, yes agree its probably not long term but Morsy is the best midfielder we have had in a decade and will be absolutely fine next season. The rest can all hold their own in the Championship and would imagine if they were to become available would move to a Championship club to prove the point.
I do agree however that if we want to push the team to another level, the spine of the team needs upgrading and that includes the midfield, I would see Luongo therefore as cover for Morsy which does seem incredibly harsh considering how incredible he was last season.
Keeping the midfield as it is would probably mean a comfortable mid table position, but is certainly not a real problem area if you consider the options we have ad in previous Championship seasons where we finished comfortably in mid table. The issue comes with the ambition and expectation of the club, which is refreshing in that we are all pushing now for the upper reaches of the division.
Certainly will be an interesting summer to see the ambition of the club, however perhaps many of us are expecting us to run before we can walk.
I'd sooner have Morsy, Luongo, Ball, Evans over a Skuse, Douglas, Hyam, Tabb which held their own. |
I think it is harsh on Skuse who was a very good midfielder for us in the Championship at what he was asked to do, and likes of Ball, Evans are never going to achieve what Tabb did at top end of that division.
But the big difference is we have set up to totally try and control games - we never had toe calibre of players to do that under Mick through the midfield so we found other ways to play. I don't think McKenna will be willing to make that same sacrifice, and therefore we need top Championship midfielders so we need to hope Morsy can step up, plus find some others who can be in that role at the level we need to push on for the top of the division - we aren't going to settle for a season of adjustment, the accelerator is flat on the floor | |
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| Central midfield.... on 14:36 - Jun 5 with 2564 views | ITFC_Jenx |
| Central midfield.... on 14:29 - Jun 5 by FrimleyBlue |
Regarding Morsy..
He was released by a championship club. Was it a wage reason or performance? |
Coming from a source who knows him from his Chesterfield days, Middlesbrough wanted him off the wage bill and to free up funds for signings. Certainly wasn't released. |  | | |
| Central midfield.... on 14:36 - Jun 5 with 2562 views | itfcsuth |
I thought Evans was having a very good season until his injury.
I personally am very comfortable with that quadrant of Morsy, Luongo, Ball and Evans.
Can't judge Camara yet as just not been fit enough - but think Humphreys is a high level prospect who can be that 5th choice.
Much more pressing areas to address first, notably centre forward. |  | | |
| Central midfield.... on 14:37 - Jun 5 with 2539 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Central midfield.... on 14:31 - Jun 5 by itfcjoe |
I think it is harsh on Skuse who was a very good midfielder for us in the Championship at what he was asked to do, and likes of Ball, Evans are never going to achieve what Tabb did at top end of that division.
But the big difference is we have set up to totally try and control games - we never had toe calibre of players to do that under Mick through the midfield so we found other ways to play. I don't think McKenna will be willing to make that same sacrifice, and therefore we need top Championship midfielders so we need to hope Morsy can step up, plus find some others who can be in that role at the level we need to push on for the top of the division - we aren't going to settle for a season of adjustment, the accelerator is flat on the floor |
Some of the valuations of championship midfielders is quite scary in comparison to our current set up. | |
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| Central midfield.... on 14:41 - Jun 5 with 2507 views | Woolfenthen |
| Central midfield.... on 14:31 - Jun 5 by itfcjoe |
I think it is harsh on Skuse who was a very good midfielder for us in the Championship at what he was asked to do, and likes of Ball, Evans are never going to achieve what Tabb did at top end of that division.
But the big difference is we have set up to totally try and control games - we never had toe calibre of players to do that under Mick through the midfield so we found other ways to play. I don't think McKenna will be willing to make that same sacrifice, and therefore we need top Championship midfielders so we need to hope Morsy can step up, plus find some others who can be in that role at the level we need to push on for the top of the division - we aren't going to settle for a season of adjustment, the accelerator is flat on the floor |
don't disagree with the majority of that, however was never ever a Skuse fan I'm afraid. 300+ games and a zero goal return and little assists doesn't cut it for me at second tier level. I would imagine those on our books would offer more than that, and would certainly control a midfield more imo.
Of course its all about opinions and I respect what the likes of Tabb, Skuse and to a lesser degree Douglas were asked to do for us, and in many parts bypassed with the style of play etc.
I'd certainly not move El Mizouni on and look to see if he can continue an upward curve with L1 loan, feel it would be churlish to discard him. Camara is somewhat of an unknown quantity, which only KM will know if he can cut it, definitely need reinforcements but certainly don't see it as a real problem, not convinced there are stand out midfielders in the Championship who will control the games week in week out over us, of course it won't be the same as last season, we have stepped up a level so regardless of who bring in we are not going to see the same dominance. | | | |
| Central midfield.... on 14:42 - Jun 5 with 2488 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
One aspect not being taken into account is that all players who remain under contract will have a promotion clause built into their contracts. That means that all those players will have now triggered a big pay rise, which in turn means we won't be able to offload them easily, certainly not to League 1 clubs.
What Joe says would be ideal if we are mounting a really big promotion push for our first season in the Championship. But what we have already (including Mas) gives us plenty of options in midfield. Fully expect McKenna to assess everyone, especially El Miz and Pan. It would be amazing if all the midfielders step it up a level, more likely some will and some will struggle. But that's the beauty of having a lot of options in there, and a pre-season to assess them. Remember we didn't have anything like our strongest 11 when we played Rotherham and Burnley. Cam will be a year older and stronger. Our existing midfield will be able to hold its own for a mid-table or top half finish. If they bring in a mega signing and Taylor, then we know they are going for back t back promotions.
We need a top striker (Hirst or another) and another centre back. That will satisfy me for a safe mid table finish. |  |
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| Central midfield.... on 14:43 - Jun 5 with 2466 views | jayessess |
| Central midfield.... on 14:29 - Jun 5 by FrimleyBlue |
Regarding Morsy..
He was released by a championship club. Was it a wage reason or performance? |
It's a bit of a weird one at first glance, to be honest. Plays most of the 2020-21 season, but gets dropped last 7 games (for George Saville). Then there are rumours all Summer 2021 that he's off, but starts 3/5 games before his transfer to us.
Thereafter they start Tavernier, Howson and Crooks in there. |  |
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| Central midfield.... on 14:48 - Jun 5 with 2427 views | tractorboy1978 |
| Central midfield.... on 14:36 - Jun 5 by itfcsuth |
I thought Evans was having a very good season until his injury.
I personally am very comfortable with that quadrant of Morsy, Luongo, Ball and Evans.
Can't judge Camara yet as just not been fit enough - but think Humphreys is a high level prospect who can be that 5th choice.
Much more pressing areas to address first, notably centre forward. |
It's a big step up. In terms of the athleticism/dynamism required as much as the quality. And games are won and lost quite often on winning the midfield battle.
You have to remember Luongo couldn't even make the bench for Boro, a team competing at the top end of the Championship. And he's currently comfortably our 2nd best midfielder. Evans was very average for a very average Wigan team and was being phased out by Cook towards the end of his time there.
Morsy could play with his eyes closed in L1. He was the best CM on the pitch every week. That won't be the case a level higher. |  | | |
| Central midfield.... on 14:49 - Jun 5 with 2420 views | the_toff |
| Central midfield.... on 14:31 - Jun 5 by itfcjoe |
I think it is harsh on Skuse who was a very good midfielder for us in the Championship at what he was asked to do, and likes of Ball, Evans are never going to achieve what Tabb did at top end of that division.
But the big difference is we have set up to totally try and control games - we never had toe calibre of players to do that under Mick through the midfield so we found other ways to play. I don't think McKenna will be willing to make that same sacrifice, and therefore we need top Championship midfielders so we need to hope Morsy can step up, plus find some others who can be in that role at the level we need to push on for the top of the division - we aren't going to settle for a season of adjustment, the accelerator is flat on the floor |
Tabb is an interesting comparison. For the most part he was fairly average but consistent performer in the 2nd tier. He was really a bit part in the Reading side that went up and then quickly phased out. I think Ball is capable of being a bit part in a top Championship side just as Tabb was. Owing to finances you're not going to get Championship sides, however strong, with 3 or 4 exceptional players in 1 position.
To your OP, the question for us is whether we have the 'top tier' to pull us along in this area and then rely on Ball and / or Evans to supplement it. Reading had Mullins who had spent most of his career in the premier league. It feels like we've got a group who are all capable of playing 'a role', but I agree with your original sentiments that they all feel a bit mid to lower tier with the exception of Morsy.
We probably are 1 'top' signing short. Someone who walks in and makes Morsy looks the weakest of the pairing is what we need. Then it's simply a case of keeping Luongo + 1 senior player as support. Plus 1 of the younger crop.
Who that is I don't know. We need the same up front too (maybe Hirst), then we're probably in decent shape. | | | |
| Central midfield.... on 15:05 - Jun 5 with 2347 views | Kieran_Knows |
| Central midfield.... on 14:04 - Jun 5 by the_toff |
I don't think there are many outside the premier league as good as Walton.
Clarke will go into the middle next to Woolf. He's suspended for the 1st game but I think that's where he'll ultimately come back.
New right back incoming. |
No doubt someone will trot along shortly and say Bart is a better keeper than Walton. |  |
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| Central midfield.... on 15:05 - Jun 5 with 2341 views | Kieran_Knows |
| Central midfield.... on 09:54 - Jun 5 by BiGDonnie |
Heard a rumour of Leighton Clarkson. CM from Liverpool who was on loan at Aberdeen last season. Him and Taylor would be quality alongside Morsy and Luongo. |
When I saw last week that a few clubs were interested in that Clarkson, I did wonder if we’d be one of them. | |
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| Central midfield.... on 15:22 - Jun 5 with 2283 views | Kropotkin123 |
I don't think the step up will be huge. Sunderland proved that this season. They went up in a worse position than we have this season and got into the play-offs.
Luongo and Morsy dominated the top teams in League 1. And they are likely going to do the same to the bottom end of the championship. Can you seriously expect a player like Dozzell to compete with the likes of Morsy and Luongo? He played 36 games last season!
It isn't just about what a player did in another team. Every team will need players to play in a particular way. How does that change the output of these players. Personally I think we are really asking Morsy and Luongo to play to their strengths. That will impact how they do and their impact on the game and other players. For example, if Chaplin played this season at Barnsley, I doubt he'd have got anywhere near 30 goals.
I don't think Ball is great in our middle as a starter. I think he is a great option to bring on and see out a game. He came to us wanting first team football, if this is true, I can see him moving on and us getting someone better
Many have identified Evans as a player unlikely to step up well. He was arguably our best player after ~15 games. But I agree. I think he may well move on.
You mention age. I'm unsure if you are using this a point to suggest they won't improve, or if you think they'll physically won't be able to maintain their performance. Personally I don't see this as an issue for next season, but it is coming in the next few seasons.
So, I agree that we want to be buying a couple of midfielders over the next two seasons. I can see us getting one this window, such as Jack Taylor. If we demonstrate we are going to be a completive side I see us getting that "mega" signing in January or the window afterwards.
In sum, I think they (Morsy and Luongo) can continue to dominate the lower end of the division. I think it will be a mixed bag at the top. I think we will get someone in at a comparative level, so we aren't reliant on them. I don't think this is new information. I think age is potentially a concern for the season after, not this one. |  |
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| Central midfield.... on 15:44 - Jun 5 with 2215 views | ArnieM |
I’d say great first post in this thread. Thank you.
I think ignore the age , go by the player’s form
And how Many games he played last season as an indicator. If the player was out injured then they need to be given benefit of doubt to see if they can get back up to speed in the first half of the new season. If include Camara and Ball and Evans on this . The likes os Luongo / Morsy were the driving force for us and ( with us ) ever present, so I’d be less concerned about them.
I think we should be keeping El Miz unless we are sure he’s not good enough.
Overall, this may explain our interest in the Posh midfielder…. |  |
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| Central midfield.... on 16:03 - Jun 5 with 2152 views | burnbudgiesburn |
| Central midfield.... on 14:31 - Jun 5 by itfcjoe |
I think it is harsh on Skuse who was a very good midfielder for us in the Championship at what he was asked to do, and likes of Ball, Evans are never going to achieve what Tabb did at top end of that division.
But the big difference is we have set up to totally try and control games - we never had toe calibre of players to do that under Mick through the midfield so we found other ways to play. I don't think McKenna will be willing to make that same sacrifice, and therefore we need top Championship midfielders so we need to hope Morsy can step up, plus find some others who can be in that role at the level we need to push on for the top of the division - we aren't going to settle for a season of adjustment, the accelerator is flat on the floor |
It'll be interesting to see how much 'the accelerator is flat on the floor' in reality come next season.
For me, it is imperative to match McKennas ambitions and yes, I doubt he will settle for midtable even though a lot of us would do as consolidation in this league.
My one big worry with a lot of churn is lost team spirit, still got PTSD from the 2nd prem season | | | |
| Central midfield.... on 16:13 - Jun 5 with 2099 views | jayessess |
| Central midfield.... on 16:03 - Jun 5 by burnbudgiesburn |
It'll be interesting to see how much 'the accelerator is flat on the floor' in reality come next season.
For me, it is imperative to match McKennas ambitions and yes, I doubt he will settle for midtable even though a lot of us would do as consolidation in this league.
My one big worry with a lot of churn is lost team spirit, still got PTSD from the 2nd prem season |
Think it's unlikely we're able to compete at the very top end of the league this season unless most of our current first team makes the step up. If we have to replace half of them, then it'll end up being a much more transitional season. | |
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| Central midfield.... on 16:20 - Jun 5 with 2057 views | Vaughan8 |
Until I read this I thought we'd be Ok for central midfielders.
I know Ball hasn't played much, but hes not been very impressive when he has has he?
I can see Camara and Humphreys maybe going on loan to get regular football if only initially until January.
If we sign Lunongo, I'm not sure where Evans fits in. Is he happy playing second fiddle?
I know people don't seem to like loan but I wouldn't mind a very good Premier league loan to come in. | | | |
| Central midfield.... on 16:35 - Jun 5 with 2005 views | Blueschev |
| Central midfield.... on 14:29 - Jun 5 by FrimleyBlue |
Regarding Morsy..
He was released by a championship club. Was it a wage reason or performance? |
A couple of 'Boro fans I spoke to at the time really rated him and couldn't believe he'd dropped a division. |  | | |
| Central midfield.... on 17:11 - Jun 5 with 1903 views | NthQldITFC |
| Central midfield.... on 13:32 - Jun 5 by itfcjoe |
I think it will end up something like 8-10 in with 6-8 out - from starting line up at end of last season I'd probably say something along these lines
Walton - Definite
Clarke - Probable
Woolfie - Probable
Burgess - Unlikely
Davis - Definite
Morsy - Probable
Luongo - Unlikely
Burns - Unlikely
Chaplin - Definite
Broadhead - Definite
Ladapo - No chance |
I think I can see where you're coming from with all of those individual assessments (looking at a potential top four team with those, I would say), but I presume you wouldn't want all of those changes made this summer, for the sake of unity and continuation?
You've got 4 unlikely/no chance and 3 probables (which might equate to 1 out?), so 4/5 changes would be too much I would think.
I'd be happy with LCB, CM and No 9. additions as pretty much nailed on starters, so 3 significant changes, with the potential for another 2 or 3 in the winter. Not to say that other additions now as punts/competition would be a problem.
Having said that, I'm also wondering whether Burns' pace will be enough of a weapon down that side, and maybe we need a Burns/Broadhead hybrid. So basically, I'm now agreeing with you! But cautious of too much change, although suspect that McKenna can handle that unity/continuity thing with aplomb anyway. |  |
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