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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:02 - Nov 22 by itfcjoe
I think your view on the UKs influence is vastly overstated, we are totally insignificant in this
That may well be the case in measurable practical outcome terms, but as individuals, as states, as humanity as a whole we have a moral responsibility to do the right thing or make the right statements.
Those little actions or intentions add up to an environment that can accommodate change, but lots of smaller actors just saying "What I do won't make any difference" adds up to no change at all.
# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:56 - Nov 22 by Blueschev
Do you honestly believe that the US would have allowed the ANC, of which the South African communist party was affiliated, to have taken power in South Africa were the Soviet Union still in existence?
No idea, but I think if they had tried military intervention in a process that was reaching its inevitable conclusion things would have got messy very quickly (as well as spilling over into Mozambique and Angola) with the loss of maybe thousands of American servicemen. Actually, thinking about it and seeing it was relatively soon after the fall of Saigon, I think the United States would either have kept out of it or facilitated the ANC taking power by putting their weight behind Thabo Mbeki to replace Mandela sooner. The Communist wing of teh ANC was significant in brave resistance but small in number, although their numbers were inflated by the American press and Macarthyite commentators opposed to the ANC. As always it's complicated:
So I think it would have been counter productive for the United States to intervene and stoke up resistance to apartheid and recruitment to Communist parties across Southern Africa. Likewise, after the catastrophic withdrawal from Afghanistan the United States might be unwilling to intervene militarily against Arab and Muslim powers involved in the rebuilding of Gaza who insist upon a two state solution (although they may send a couple of aircraft carriers to keep an eye on things.)
How much does American opinion matter ? on 14:38 - Nov 22 by WeWereZombies
One of my biggest reliefs as I travelled for six days through the Jasmine Revolution (and eventually got to the airport in Tunis) was that there were no US Army boots on the ground, I suspect things would have gotten a lot more violent if that had happened. For two or three days we were holed up at a hotel in Kairouan with a couple of American basketball players who were signed to the local club. I implored them to get in touch with the US Embassy to get out of the country but I don't know if they ever did, we got a louage to Monastir as soon as it felt safe ('ish.) One thing I impressed upon them was that Hilary Clinton was doing right by the Tunisian people and that they should take some strength from that, but things have gone backwards since then. The United States is one of three superpowers again now and with dozens of important nations emerging on the inside track, the BRICS anf the MINTS for starters.
Edited - that one sided thread title is a stubborn búgger...
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:26]
“The United States is one of three superpowers again now”
Sorry to go off piste, but this comment piqued my interest. Obviously the US and China, however I’m not sure Russia can be classed as a superpower any more, perhaps a Great power at best. It has an economy smaller than Italy’s (and contracting further). Militarily (nukes aside) that also looks a stretch these days, given the state of their army, technology, and defence spending compared to peers.
I guess back on topic, I noticed Wagner have offered military assistance to Hezbollah, so Israel’s somewhat odd relationship with Russia could turn sour.
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Russia's place in the World on 15:39 - Nov 22 with 4372 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:24 - Nov 22 by SuperKieranMcKenna
“The United States is one of three superpowers again now”
Sorry to go off piste, but this comment piqued my interest. Obviously the US and China, however I’m not sure Russia can be classed as a superpower any more, perhaps a Great power at best. It has an economy smaller than Italy’s (and contracting further). Militarily (nukes aside) that also looks a stretch these days, given the state of their army, technology, and defence spending compared to peers.
I guess back on topic, I noticed Wagner have offered military assistance to Hezbollah, so Israel’s somewhat odd relationship with Russia could turn sour.
Russia is the biggest nation by land mass and by a considerable margin, however it has a modest population so cannot generate GDP to the scale that the United States or China can but it is still the eleventh largest economy:
This link also mentions the enormous natural resources so, like Canada, they can take their time building economic power - they are playing a different game. Also, climate change is delivering the Northern Passage to them, which will generate easy revenues in the way the Panama and Suez canals do. And all of this in a sea of domestic troubles plus transforming from Communism to a market economy and conducting a war in Ukraine. They have an unpleasant ruling elite but don't write them off as a superpower.
Russia's place in the World on 15:39 - Nov 22 by WeWereZombies
Russia is the biggest nation by land mass and by a considerable margin, however it has a modest population so cannot generate GDP to the scale that the United States or China can but it is still the eleventh largest economy:
This link also mentions the enormous natural resources so, like Canada, they can take their time building economic power - they are playing a different game. Also, climate change is delivering the Northern Passage to them, which will generate easy revenues in the way the Panama and Suez canals do. And all of this in a sea of domestic troubles plus transforming from Communism to a market economy and conducting a war in Ukraine. They have an unpleasant ruling elite but don't write them off as a superpower.
I don’t want to send the thread off topic, so we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. There are very few positive projections of massive Russian economic growth in the near term . FDI has been decimated and fossil fuels exports will have reduced clout in the future. I don’t doubt there’s huge potential there, but it will never be realised whilst riddled with corruption and authoritarianism.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:57]
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Russia's place in the World on 16:36 - Nov 22 with 4302 views
I don’t want to send the thread off topic, so we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. There are very few positive projections of massive Russian economic growth in the near term . FDI has been decimated and fossil fuels exports will have reduced clout in the future. I don’t doubt there’s huge potential there, but it will never be realised whilst riddled with corruption and authoritarianism.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:57]
Well I agree we are sending the thread a bit off topic (although Russia's contribution to ending or prolonging this war has not really been discussed yet) but I also think we are not disagreeing about the Russian economy. I said they will take time to grow and you said that we will not see massive growth in the near term, not really any conflict in those opinions. As for potential, authoritarianism has not held China back and the United States is just as riven with corruption, despite anti-trust legislation and all manner of other laws, as Russia. It's just a different type of corruption - this is worth a watch, for example:
Russia's place in the World on 16:36 - Nov 22 by WeWereZombies
Well I agree we are sending the thread a bit off topic (although Russia's contribution to ending or prolonging this war has not really been discussed yet) but I also think we are not disagreeing about the Russian economy. I said they will take time to grow and you said that we will not see massive growth in the near term, not really any conflict in those opinions. As for potential, authoritarianism has not held China back and the United States is just as riven with corruption, despite anti-trust legislation and all manner of other laws, as Russia. It's just a different type of corruption - this is worth a watch, for example:
“United States is just as riven with corruption, despite anti-trust legislation and all manner of other laws, as Russia.”
Of court there is corruption and some horrendous conflicts of interest in the US, but to suggest it’s as corrupt as Russia - I don’t think there’s a single organisation in the world that would agree with that statement.
As for Russia’s involvement in this conflict I don’t think anything good can come of it. Only in the last few days they’ve been attacking Kiev with suspected Iranian drones, as well as the links with Hezbollah. The U.N. has announced an estimated 10k civilian casualties in the conflict, which given the similar figures projected in Gaza in a fraction of the timescale highlights the tragedy thats unfolded. Israel needs to stop now before this escalates and turns regional. It’s also shocking that the ceasefire doesn’t come into effect until tomorrow- how many people will needlessly be killed in the interim.
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Russia's place in the World on 08:26 - Nov 23 with 4149 views
“United States is just as riven with corruption, despite anti-trust legislation and all manner of other laws, as Russia.”
Of court there is corruption and some horrendous conflicts of interest in the US, but to suggest it’s as corrupt as Russia - I don’t think there’s a single organisation in the world that would agree with that statement.
As for Russia’s involvement in this conflict I don’t think anything good can come of it. Only in the last few days they’ve been attacking Kiev with suspected Iranian drones, as well as the links with Hezbollah. The U.N. has announced an estimated 10k civilian casualties in the conflict, which given the similar figures projected in Gaza in a fraction of the timescale highlights the tragedy thats unfolded. Israel needs to stop now before this escalates and turns regional. It’s also shocking that the ceasefire doesn’t come into effect until tomorrow- how many people will needlessly be killed in the interim.
You are right in saying that Russia is more riven with corruption than the United States, and in using the good offices of Transparency International to make your point. And you are also correct to highlight greater American economic power, but that does mean that the corruption within the oil industry that delayed the realisation of what is happening with global heating had much greater impact then if it happened (it probably was happening but we would be unlikely to hear much about the concerns raised by Soviet scientists) in Russia.
My point about the anti-trust legislation and other laws is a bit of a two edged sword for me, I was pointing out how ineffectual they often are but I have to concede that there are teeth in reasoned resistance to corporate greed in the United States, whereas in Russia (and many other states now as authoritarianism spreads its disease like germs across the World) it is as much personal greed and lust for power embedded in an elite that revises the law to weaken resistance.
“United States is just as riven with corruption, despite anti-trust legislation and all manner of other laws, as Russia.”
Of court there is corruption and some horrendous conflicts of interest in the US, but to suggest it’s as corrupt as Russia - I don’t think there’s a single organisation in the world that would agree with that statement.
As for Russia’s involvement in this conflict I don’t think anything good can come of it. Only in the last few days they’ve been attacking Kiev with suspected Iranian drones, as well as the links with Hezbollah. The U.N. has announced an estimated 10k civilian casualties in the conflict, which given the similar figures projected in Gaza in a fraction of the timescale highlights the tragedy thats unfolded. Israel needs to stop now before this escalates and turns regional. It’s also shocking that the ceasefire doesn’t come into effect until tomorrow- how many people will needlessly be killed in the interim.
The four day pause itself is a sticking plaster if this is anything to go by
A coalition of aid agencies warned in a briefing that the four day ceasefire announced by the warring parties left almost no time to provide effective humanitarian relief to Gaza’s 2.3 million people.
They argued the only effective response would be a permanent or durable end to the war and that it remained unclear if there would be sufficient access, particularly to the north of the strip, to allow anything beyond cursory relief.
Joel Weiler, executive director of medical charity Médecins du Monde, said “for a medical organisation, four days of pause is....band aid, not health care”, arguing it would be insufficient to time to diagnose and begin treating serious injuries or other medical conditions.
Danila Zizi, Palestine director from Humanity & Inclusion, an aid organisation, said “it’s a kind of drop in the ocean if we don’t have fuel and we don’t have access” and complained that it was unclear what the arrangements were likely to be.
It is estimated 1.7 million people out of 2.3 million have been displaced by the conflict, many of whom are living in tents in the south of the strip, just as the weather is deteriorating. But there remain 200,000 to 300,000 civilians still in northern Gaza despite weeks of fighting.
Agencies present complained that there was no sign of other border crossings being reopened during the four day pause in fighting, leaving aid only able to pass through the crowded Rafah facility, in the south of the strip, where it meets Egypt.
“There is a logistic limitation into what can enter through the crossing,” at Rafah, said Chiara Saccardi, head of Middle East operations with ActionAid.
If you consider that in some of the shelters so you have 20,000 people sheltering and they have available one latrine for 650 persons, then you can only figure what is needed on the ground right now.
Only a long term ceasefire and security for aid workers could begin to meet some of the people’s urgent needs, she added.
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Russia's place in the World on 09:34 - Nov 23 with 4109 views
Russia's place in the World on 09:31 - Nov 23 by DJR
The four day pause itself is a sticking plaster if this is anything to go by
A coalition of aid agencies warned in a briefing that the four day ceasefire announced by the warring parties left almost no time to provide effective humanitarian relief to Gaza’s 2.3 million people.
They argued the only effective response would be a permanent or durable end to the war and that it remained unclear if there would be sufficient access, particularly to the north of the strip, to allow anything beyond cursory relief.
Joel Weiler, executive director of medical charity Médecins du Monde, said “for a medical organisation, four days of pause is....band aid, not health care”, arguing it would be insufficient to time to diagnose and begin treating serious injuries or other medical conditions.
Danila Zizi, Palestine director from Humanity & Inclusion, an aid organisation, said “it’s a kind of drop in the ocean if we don’t have fuel and we don’t have access” and complained that it was unclear what the arrangements were likely to be.
It is estimated 1.7 million people out of 2.3 million have been displaced by the conflict, many of whom are living in tents in the south of the strip, just as the weather is deteriorating. But there remain 200,000 to 300,000 civilians still in northern Gaza despite weeks of fighting.
Agencies present complained that there was no sign of other border crossings being reopened during the four day pause in fighting, leaving aid only able to pass through the crowded Rafah facility, in the south of the strip, where it meets Egypt.
“There is a logistic limitation into what can enter through the crossing,” at Rafah, said Chiara Saccardi, head of Middle East operations with ActionAid.
If you consider that in some of the shelters so you have 20,000 people sheltering and they have available one latrine for 650 persons, then you can only figure what is needed on the ground right now.
Only a long term ceasefire and security for aid workers could begin to meet some of the people’s urgent needs, she added.
On a similar theme.
The head of the UN children’s agency (Unicef), Catherine Russell, welcomed the deal agreed by Israel and Hamas for the release of hostages and a temporary ceasefire but said “much more needs to be done”.
Speaking to the UN security council on Wednesday, Russell said:
For children to survive, for humanitarian workers to stay and effectively deliver, humanitarian pauses are simply not enough. Unicef is calling for an urgent humanitarian ceasefire to immediately put a stop to this carnage.
She said she was concerned that further military escalation in the south of Gaza would “exponentially worsen” the humanitarian situation there, and said attacks on the south “must be avoided”. She added:
The true cost of this latest war in Palestine and Israel will be measured in children’s lives – those lost to the violence and those forever changed by it. Without an end to the fighting and full humanitarian access, the cost will continue to grow exponentially.
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Russia's place in the World on 09:52 - Nov 23 with 4073 views
Russia's place in the World on 09:34 - Nov 23 by DJR
On a similar theme.
The head of the UN children’s agency (Unicef), Catherine Russell, welcomed the deal agreed by Israel and Hamas for the release of hostages and a temporary ceasefire but said “much more needs to be done”.
Speaking to the UN security council on Wednesday, Russell said:
For children to survive, for humanitarian workers to stay and effectively deliver, humanitarian pauses are simply not enough. Unicef is calling for an urgent humanitarian ceasefire to immediately put a stop to this carnage.
She said she was concerned that further military escalation in the south of Gaza would “exponentially worsen” the humanitarian situation there, and said attacks on the south “must be avoided”. She added:
The true cost of this latest war in Palestine and Israel will be measured in children’s lives – those lost to the violence and those forever changed by it. Without an end to the fighting and full humanitarian access, the cost will continue to grow exponentially.
“The true cost of this latest war in Palestine and Israel will be measured in children’s lives – those lost to the violence and those forever changed by it. Without an end to the fighting and full humanitarian access, the cost will continue to grow exponentially.”
That bears repeating on its own. And light years from the leadership we should be seeing here from too many of our leaders and politicians in the supposedly civilised and just West.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:54 - Nov 23 with 3952 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:42 - Nov 22 by StokieBlue
"given 40% of buildings have already been destroyed"
This number seemed very high to me but I've found the source for this and it's an independent analysis using space-based radar from the European Space Agency's Sentinel-1 satellite so it would seem that it's a reasonable source:
Given that it really seems hard to square the narrative that the IDF are restricting their targets unless we are willing to say that the majority of buildings in Northern Gaza hold either a base or significant Hamas infrastructure. I don't think we've seen any evidence from the IDF to show that is the case.
SB
Unfortunately that number looks like it's going to increase quite a lot:
"Israel’s defence minister, Yoav Gallant, has said the military will resume fighting against Hamas “with intensity” for at least two more months once the “short” temporary pause ends."
I see that Cameron's former advisor has stated the below, hopefully something Cameron agrees with:
"The current approach is not making the Israelis safe and secure for the long term but creating a traumatised generation of Palestinians and teaching them that Israel is their enemy and it is undermining the prospects of a two-state solution and deliberately dismantling it."
SB
[Post edited 24 Nov 2023 6:39]
Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:23 - Nov 24 with 3794 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:54 - Nov 23 by StokieBlue
Unfortunately that number looks like it's going to increase quite a lot:
"Israel’s defence minister, Yoav Gallant, has said the military will resume fighting against Hamas “with intensity” for at least two more months once the “short” temporary pause ends."
I see that Cameron's former advisor has stated the below, hopefully something Cameron agrees with:
"The current approach is not making the Israelis safe and secure for the long term but creating a traumatised generation of Palestinians and teaching them that Israel is their enemy and it is undermining the prospects of a two-state solution and deliberately dismantling it."
SB
[Post edited 24 Nov 2023 6:39]
Agreed.
Hopefully he and his former foreign affairs advisor still share views and it would be a welcome departure from the more tone-deaf support and short-term vision that the UK government have been pushing so far.
The BBC say that Cameron is due to meet Palestinian leaders today with this line in particular a source of hope: “In his talks with Palestinian leaders, Lord Cameron is expected to discuss a longer-term political solution to the crisis.”
I think that longer-term political solution has to be the vision. And we can work back from that to see how dangerous and damaging the current extremist approach is to a peaceful and secure future for Palestinians and Israelis alike.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:44 - Nov 24 with 3740 views
Prior to 7 October, 500 aid trucks entered Gaza daily. But during the supposedly humanitarian pause, only 200 trucks will do so which is clearly totally inadequate.
Laila Barhoum from Oxfam told BBC News the proposed number of aid deliveries would not match the level of need.
"The whole population of Gaza, two million, are aid-dependent and what will be happening is for four days we will have around 200 trucks of humanitarian assistance getting inside and the fuel and also some gas... it is not even nearly enough", she says.
[Post edited 24 Nov 2023 8:45]
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How many Palestinians will eventually be released ? on 08:32 - Nov 25 with 3570 views
'They are accused of a range of offences, from throwing stones to attempted murder. Some were convicted while others were awaiting trial.
The group of 24 women and 15 teenage boys was released across the Beituniya checkpoint in the occupied West Bank...The detainees were chosen from a list of 300 women and minors compiled by Israel.
Less than a quarter of those on the list have been convicted - the vast majority are being held on remand while awaiting trial. Most of those listed are teenage boys - 40% of them under the age of 18. There is also one teenage girl and 32 women.
There are now thought to be more than 6,000 Palestinians held by Israel on security grounds - many still awaiting trial.
Almost every Palestinian family in the West Bank is thought to have had a relative detained by Israel at some point in the past - often in jails inside Israel, making it difficult or impossible for their relatives to visit.'
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:59 - Nov 25 by ElephantintheRoom
The terms of the ceasefire (or pause) seem to suggest that a ratio of 3 to 1 is about right
3 people convicted of offences such as stabbings in exchange for a baby or a grandmother, isn't a correct ratio.
I did see somebody suggest that giving three Palestinians for one Israeli shows how the Israelis value their own lives more than Palestinians. Which is pretty offensive.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:26 - Nov 25 by GlasgowBlue
3 people convicted of offences such as stabbings in exchange for a baby or a grandmother, isn't a correct ratio.
I did see somebody suggest that giving three Palestinians for one Israeli shows how the Israelis value their own lives more than Palestinians. Which is pretty offensive.
The article posted above suggests that most have never been convicted, or even had a trial...
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:02 - Nov 25 with 3397 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:23 - Nov 24 by Darth_Koont
Agreed.
Hopefully he and his former foreign affairs advisor still share views and it would be a welcome departure from the more tone-deaf support and short-term vision that the UK government have been pushing so far.
The BBC say that Cameron is due to meet Palestinian leaders today with this line in particular a source of hope: “In his talks with Palestinian leaders, Lord Cameron is expected to discuss a longer-term political solution to the crisis.”
I think that longer-term political solution has to be the vision. And we can work back from that to see how dangerous and damaging the current extremist approach is to a peaceful and secure future for Palestinians and Israelis alike.
"Lord Cameron has warned Israel that it will never be secure unless there is "long-term safety, security and stability" for the Palestinian people.
In his first full interview as foreign secretary, he welcomed Friday's pause in the fighting to get hostages out of Gaza and humanitarian aid in.
But he told the BBC that civilian casualties in Gaza were too high.
He also said that Israeli forces must abide by international humanitarian law.
Lord Cameron urged Israel to crack down on what he called "completely unacceptable" violence by settlers in the occupied West Bank.
It was important for Israel to realise, he said, that "it must act in a way that delivers its long-term security" and he said that would ultimately depend on "Palestinians living in peace and stability and security in this land at the same time"."
We'll just have to see how much of this is lip service but you'd hope that these comments are being backed up when talking to the Israeli government and to cool their thirst for a pyrrhic victory that will deepen the suffering of the Palestinian and Israeli civilians alike.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:25 - Nov 25 with 3319 views
"Lord Cameron has warned Israel that it will never be secure unless there is "long-term safety, security and stability" for the Palestinian people.
In his first full interview as foreign secretary, he welcomed Friday's pause in the fighting to get hostages out of Gaza and humanitarian aid in.
But he told the BBC that civilian casualties in Gaza were too high.
He also said that Israeli forces must abide by international humanitarian law.
Lord Cameron urged Israel to crack down on what he called "completely unacceptable" violence by settlers in the occupied West Bank.
It was important for Israel to realise, he said, that "it must act in a way that delivers its long-term security" and he said that would ultimately depend on "Palestinians living in peace and stability and security in this land at the same time"."
We'll just have to see how much of this is lip service but you'd hope that these comments are being backed up when talking to the Israeli government and to cool their thirst for a pyrrhic victory that will deepen the suffering of the Palestinian and Israeli civilians alike.
Meanwhile, this is due process in Hamas controlled Gaza.
Warning! Graphic content.
Surprised those concerned with Palestinian lives haven’t mentioned this.
This appears to be whatabouttery and deflection.
I have no doubt at all that some of those detained, perhaps many of them, have done bad things. Pointing that out does not address the suggestion that huge numbers are detained without trial.
Why is that relevant to the point made?
And are you really suggesting that it is possible and reasonable to compare a major regional power, with wealth, democracy (at least in theory) and rule of law, with a collection of ghettos and refugee camps, loosely held together by two or more disparate groups, when talking about due process?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:48 - Nov 25 with 3249 views
Meanwhile, this is due process in Hamas controlled Gaza.
Warning! Graphic content.
Surprised those concerned with Palestinian lives haven’t mentioned this.
Not getting into this discussion but just to say, on an entirely non-partisan point, that Visegrad is very much discredited as a source by anyone serious – I would think twice before citing them on anything, regardless of your view.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:48 - Nov 25 by SomethingBlue
Not getting into this discussion but just to say, on an entirely non-partisan point, that Visegrad is very much discredited as a source by anyone serious – I would think twice before citing them on anything, regardless of your view.
Thanks for the heads up. They’ve been popping up on my feed quite a bit lately. I’ll give them a wide berth.
Although I have seen the same video on other sources and the two boys were convicted of the stabbings.
Russia's place in the World on 09:34 - Nov 23 by DJR
On a similar theme.
The head of the UN children’s agency (Unicef), Catherine Russell, welcomed the deal agreed by Israel and Hamas for the release of hostages and a temporary ceasefire but said “much more needs to be done”.
Speaking to the UN security council on Wednesday, Russell said:
For children to survive, for humanitarian workers to stay and effectively deliver, humanitarian pauses are simply not enough. Unicef is calling for an urgent humanitarian ceasefire to immediately put a stop to this carnage.
She said she was concerned that further military escalation in the south of Gaza would “exponentially worsen” the humanitarian situation there, and said attacks on the south “must be avoided”. She added:
The true cost of this latest war in Palestine and Israel will be measured in children’s lives – those lost to the violence and those forever changed by it. Without an end to the fighting and full humanitarian access, the cost will continue to grow exponentially.
Quite a relief to hear of at least one child released from captivity yesterday:
'She turned nine while being held by Hamas. He said he realised it would take a long time to fix the mental trauma his little girl will have suffered.'
One can only hope that the warring factions realise the insanity of their methods and that the truce becomes indefinite. Hope, not expect. The suffering and damage done to this one child can be multiplied many times over, and not just in Palestine and Israel.
The first half hour of Broadcasting House on Radio Four this morning was very good and balanced I thought, with some pertinent recent history added for its relevance to the current dilemmas.
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