| Are you a true lefty? 10:35 - Jun 10 with 22247 views | DJR |
People often say on here that the forum is dominated by lefties (or pinkos as they were once disparagingly known).
This begs the question, what constitutes a lefty?
For my own part, I believe a true lefty in this country is someone who has never voted Tory or Liberal Democrat (or any of its former incarnations). And in every election since 1979, I have voted Labour, apart from in two local elections where there was no Labour candidate and I voted firstly for the Ecology Party and secondly for the Greens, both of which I would regard as left-leaning parties..
My hunch is that there is only a handful on TWTD like me, and it would be interesting to know who falls into the category, or if anyone else has their own definition of a lefty.
In all this, I am ignoring the fact that some people (myself included) might not regard the current Labour Party as truly left wing.
[Post edited 10 Jun 2024 13:02]
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| Are you a true lefty? on 09:47 - Jun 11 with 2869 views | itfcjoe |
| Are you a true lefty? on 09:26 - Jun 11 by bluelagos |
He wouldn't have had a vote anyway, unless he took British citizenship, in which case he'd still have the vote.
My partner (born overseas) has lived in and paid taxes in the UK over 30 years, is possibly soon to get Farage as her MP and doesn't get to vote in the election.
Bizarrely she does get a vote in local elections. |
No taxation without representation! |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 09:48 - Jun 11 with 2862 views | bluelagos |
| Are you a true lefty? on 09:47 - Jun 11 by itfcjoe |
No taxation without representation! |
My Mrs has been saying exactly that. She is far from happy! |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 10:08 - Jun 11 with 2816 views | AVJones |
| Are you a true lefty? on 08:45 - Jun 11 by ElephantintheRoom |
Left wingers have been replaced by inverted left full backs that can try to defend the indefensible |
Very droll! |  | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 10:09 - Jun 11 with 2814 views | Zapers |
| Are you a true lefty? on 06:35 - Jun 11 by Herbivore |
I always find it odd when those who claim to have no real interest in politics take a sneering tone towards those who do. Your line of political thought is a combination of I don't really care because I've always been doing alright but I'd never vote Labour even when they are the centrist option and I think the centrist option is the best one. You'll pardon me for not giving such a view all that much respect, there's little in the way of substance there. You are of course entitled to hold that opinion, just as I'm entitled to challenge it as lacking substance.
Sorry if that means I'm shouting loudest, it's just that for some of us politics does actually matter. Not everyone is privileged enough to be insulated against the negative consequences of having bad (usually Tory) governments and some of us would like to see a fairer society that treats everyone with dignity and respect. I know that some people find that uncomfortable or challenging or whatever but if you have no interest in politics, it's very easy to ignore politics threads if you get wound up by those who do take an interest in politics. Those threads tend to be titled things like "Are you a true lefty?". |
I care little how hard you shout. During my lifetime there has been very little to choose between Labour and Tory. I suspect this will continue into the future.
You see my point is this, I have no interest in winding you up, I'm merely giving facts as I see them. I lean towards the right, always have done. I accept Labour if it's a centrist government, I would never accept a Corbyn government. It's really quite simple, in principle i'm a Tory but I can live with Starmer, until he proves otherwise.
You wont even be happy with Starmer in government, you will never be happy in my opinion, because however loud you shout, the majority of people in the UK don't want what you want. | | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 10:12 - Jun 11 with 2793 views | Ryorry |
| Are you a true lefty? on 07:23 - Jun 11 by IPS_wich |
I've always tried to differentiate between political ideology and political parties - ever since I was in my early-20s and neither of my parents (both of whom were Conservative councillors in the mid 1980s) could articulate a good reason why they were voting Conservative in the 1997 General Election. The 'I've always voted Conservative' and 'You should have seen the state of the country under Labour in the 70s' didn't really cut it for me, so I spent time reading into different political ideologies to work out what best represented my view of the world.
I ultimately concluded that Social Liberalism best meets my own personal value set (left of centre on social policy and a mix of centre-left/centre-right on economic policy). Unfortunately, in most political regimes that are defined as left vs right then it's rare that a political party really aligns with this philosophy (probably only the first term and a half of Blair's Government and then the Orange Book Liberal Democrats came close in my lifetime - and both of those movements s**t the bed once they had any time in power).
As I've got older, I've found myself being pulled further left in my voting intentions because of the abhorrent social policies of the right-wing parties - but as someone who later in life has found myself working in the public sector I do hold the view that most, if not all, public services have become too bloated and bureaucratic - and are in desperate in need of reform...none more so than health system (both the NHS and also here in Australia). |
I find it a bit depressing that some people only vote with a narrow perspective of what's best for them as an individual/family.
A wider perspective of what's best not just for them but millions of others around them isn't just altruism, it also icreases the wellbeing of those individuals and their families - having happier & healthier people around you, instead of troubled, stressed strugglers feeling miserable, leads to a feel-good factor in their local and wider community/society. (For those not old enough to remember the 1960s UK, the early years of the Blair administration had a bit of the same feel). |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 10:26 - Jun 11 with 2746 views | Churchman |
I’m a bit of a fence sitting political mongrel really. Sort of centrist that leans a bit to the left. I see no practical alternative to capitalism that actually works, but then I don’t like capitalism which by definition moves money to those who have most of it already.
I voted for all of them over the years. The last time the tories got my vote was when kinnock fell in the sea. Blair, Thatcher, Gordon Brownshorts, the liberal mob, you name it I’ve voted for it. I wish Count Binface would stand where I live. He’d get my vote.
Do I have any principles? No, it’s just the way I walk. Seriously, key beliefs for me are equal opportunity (education) and society. We are competitive beings but are also social animals so I believe in society and all that goes with it..
I am bitterly opposed to the class system, privilege, monarchy etc. in fact anything with an ‘ism’ on the end (racism, sexism, ageism, you name it. Universal healthcare and public ownership of key utilities? Of course.
I guess I’m a bit of a mixed up cop out merchant beyond wishing for the total obliteration of Norwich City and the crushing of Delia’s BMW. [Post edited 11 Jun 2024 10:28]
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| Are you a true lefty? on 10:39 - Jun 11 with 2724 views | Zapers |
| Are you a true lefty? on 10:12 - Jun 11 by Ryorry |
I find it a bit depressing that some people only vote with a narrow perspective of what's best for them as an individual/family.
A wider perspective of what's best not just for them but millions of others around them isn't just altruism, it also icreases the wellbeing of those individuals and their families - having happier & healthier people around you, instead of troubled, stressed strugglers feeling miserable, leads to a feel-good factor in their local and wider community/society. (For those not old enough to remember the 1960s UK, the early years of the Blair administration had a bit of the same feel). |
I hear what you say Ryorry, and always have great respect for you as a poster. I Fully understand that a great number of people vote with a narrow perspective in mind. I'm not really sure how else one is supposed to vote.
It's a wonderful attribute to care for others, but I never really saw that as my responsibility. I'm selfish clearly, but I was only interested in making more than a living, this is why i entered into business. It's a dog eat dog world being in business, I tried to look after those in my employment, because at the end of the day, it's governments responsibility to look after the millions. | | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 10:41 - Jun 11 with 2717 views | Herbivore |
| Are you a true lefty? on 10:09 - Jun 11 by Zapers |
I care little how hard you shout. During my lifetime there has been very little to choose between Labour and Tory. I suspect this will continue into the future.
You see my point is this, I have no interest in winding you up, I'm merely giving facts as I see them. I lean towards the right, always have done. I accept Labour if it's a centrist government, I would never accept a Corbyn government. It's really quite simple, in principle i'm a Tory but I can live with Starmer, until he proves otherwise.
You wont even be happy with Starmer in government, you will never be happy in my opinion, because however loud you shout, the majority of people in the UK don't want what you want. |
If you don't care how loud people shout then why do you feel the need to repeatedly comment on it, unless it is to provoke a response? It's an odd thing to solely commentate on how you view others' posting rather than to actually contribute yourself. And what do you even mean by shouting loudest/hardest? It seems to mean that some of us on the left contribute more than others to politics threads, but that's because we actually care about and take an interest in politics which you, by your admission, don't. |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 10:48 - Jun 11 with 2693 views | eireblue |
| Are you a true lefty? on 10:09 - Jun 11 by Zapers |
I care little how hard you shout. During my lifetime there has been very little to choose between Labour and Tory. I suspect this will continue into the future.
You see my point is this, I have no interest in winding you up, I'm merely giving facts as I see them. I lean towards the right, always have done. I accept Labour if it's a centrist government, I would never accept a Corbyn government. It's really quite simple, in principle i'm a Tory but I can live with Starmer, until he proves otherwise.
You wont even be happy with Starmer in government, you will never be happy in my opinion, because however loud you shout, the majority of people in the UK don't want what you want. |
“..giving facts as I see them…”
A fact is a fact, adding your perspective is still just an opinion. |  | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 10:49 - Jun 11 with 2691 views | bluelagos |
| Are you a true lefty? on 09:28 - Jun 11 by Herbivore |
I think he's English but lives overseas, not an immigrant to the UK but one of those English immigrants that live overseas. I think he still has the right to vote in that case (unless he's been away over a certain period - 15 years maybe?) but maybe he can't be arsed, in which case you wonder why he bothers posting on politics threads really. |
Half watching BBC news atm and they are doing a piece on expats. The law ref the 15 year rule has recently been changed so long term expats now get the right to a vote. | |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 11:03 - Jun 11 with 2663 views | Zapers |
| Are you a true lefty? on 10:41 - Jun 11 by Herbivore |
If you don't care how loud people shout then why do you feel the need to repeatedly comment on it, unless it is to provoke a response? It's an odd thing to solely commentate on how you view others' posting rather than to actually contribute yourself. And what do you even mean by shouting loudest/hardest? It seems to mean that some of us on the left contribute more than others to politics threads, but that's because we actually care about and take an interest in politics which you, by your admission, don't. |
Repeatedly comment! You cannot be serious;) | | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 11:27 - Jun 11 with 2607 views | Herbivore |
| Are you a true lefty? on 10:39 - Jun 11 by Zapers |
I hear what you say Ryorry, and always have great respect for you as a poster. I Fully understand that a great number of people vote with a narrow perspective in mind. I'm not really sure how else one is supposed to vote.
It's a wonderful attribute to care for others, but I never really saw that as my responsibility. I'm selfish clearly, but I was only interested in making more than a living, this is why i entered into business. It's a dog eat dog world being in business, I tried to look after those in my employment, because at the end of the day, it's governments responsibility to look after the millions. |
Then maybe vote for a government that will care for the millions rather than one that similarly doesn't really see that as its responsibility? [Post edited 11 Jun 2024 11:28]
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| Are you a true lefty? on 11:39 - Jun 11 with 2572 views | DJR |
| Are you a true lefty? on 10:49 - Jun 11 by bluelagos |
Half watching BBC news atm and they are doing a piece on expats. The law ref the 15 year rule has recently been changed so long term expats now get the right to a vote. |
Yes, a friend of mine who has lived in Paris since 1993 has taken advantage of this. As it turns out, his vote is now in Starmer's constituency due to a boundary change when last time round it would have been Corbyn's. As he is Jewish, he wouldn't have voted Labour last time but will vote Labour this time. | | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 12:14 - Jun 11 with 2521 views | Plums |
| Are you a true lefty? on 09:47 - Jun 11 by itfcjoe |
No taxation without representation! |
Indeed. Also, no national media ownership without taxation.
That's a policy I could get behind. |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 12:53 - Jun 11 with 2474 views | lowhouseblue |
| Are you a true lefty? on 10:41 - Jun 11 by Herbivore |
If you don't care how loud people shout then why do you feel the need to repeatedly comment on it, unless it is to provoke a response? It's an odd thing to solely commentate on how you view others' posting rather than to actually contribute yourself. And what do you even mean by shouting loudest/hardest? It seems to mean that some of us on the left contribute more than others to politics threads, but that's because we actually care about and take an interest in politics which you, by your admission, don't. |
"it seems to mean that some of us on the left contribute more than others to politics threads, but that's because we actually care about and take an interest in politics"
it is an interesting sociological phenomena. in part, it's self-reinforcing and once you have a group who dominate threads then others keep quiet for an easy life. it's also interesting that for those who identify as 'the left' political beliefs seems to be much more performative and a form of self-realisation. "my opinions and my allegiance to a particular group / world view are what define and make me". i really don't think other people define themselves and their self-worth by the views they express to the same extent. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:06 - Jun 11 with 2430 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Are you a true lefty? on 09:00 - Jun 11 by DJR |
I suppose it could be said that it is difficult for the man in the street (or even economists) to know which party will offer the strongest growth.
No doubt many people voting for the Tories in 2010 and since thought that it would lead to greater growth but in fact the last 14 years have been the worst in terms of growth since WW2, and indeed a recent report indicated all of the growth was due to an increasing population caused by immigration.
And don't forget the self-inflicted own goals of things like the Barber and Truss budgets and Black Monday and the ensuing negative equity which lasted about 8 years.
Despite all this it is Labour who have the bad reputation on economic competence, reinforced as it is by the right wing media. [Post edited 11 Jun 2024 9:04]
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The thing that frustrates me is the lack of any long term vision or planning from either party. Energy policy rarely looks beyond the next electoral cycle, Nuclear power for instance because of the long term planning always gets kicked into the next parliament yet could have played a part in reducing fossil fuel usage.
The same with the economy - both parties have been woefully inadequate at tacking the two main structural problems with the UK economy. Firstly our reliance on the tertiary sector (particularly financial services and retail). This imbalance has left us particularly vulnerable to economic shocks and slowdown (hence during COVID our economy retracted more than our Western European peers German and France. There needs to be more planning for diversifying our economy which nobody is interested doing since it till take longer than one electoral cycle.
The other is how centralised the UK economy is; and whilst ‘levelling up’ was clearly a load of bollox, it’s easy to see why the message reasonated to those in the North. The only major infrastructure project HS2 sums it up with the Northern branches axed. Germany is far more federalised with a spread of industry across the country, they’ve even made inroads into the poorer formerly East Germany. Moving some of our institutions out of London, whilst unpopular with civil servants seems like a sensible idea, especially in this age of remote working. Infrastructure also needs imporiving outside of London and the south east to lure private companies into the regions. That’s why I’m not into political tribalism, because both parties have had consecutive parliaments to tackle these issues, but both are more interested in assuming power via pointless tax bribes. [Post edited 11 Jun 2024 13:18]
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:10 - Jun 11 with 2421 views | Herbivore |
| Are you a true lefty? on 12:53 - Jun 11 by lowhouseblue |
"it seems to mean that some of us on the left contribute more than others to politics threads, but that's because we actually care about and take an interest in politics"
it is an interesting sociological phenomena. in part, it's self-reinforcing and once you have a group who dominate threads then others keep quiet for an easy life. it's also interesting that for those who identify as 'the left' political beliefs seems to be much more performative and a form of self-realisation. "my opinions and my allegiance to a particular group / world view are what define and make me". i really don't think other people define themselves and their self-worth by the views they express to the same extent. |
How gloriously condescending and wonderfully inaccurate. What opinion will you pluck out of your backside next, I wonder? | |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:25 - Jun 11 with 2369 views | lowhouseblue |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:10 - Jun 11 by Herbivore |
How gloriously condescending and wonderfully inaccurate. What opinion will you pluck out of your backside next, I wonder? |
well self-awareness isn't really your thing. but do keep patting yourself on your back, non-condescendingly of course, for "actually caring about and taking an interest in politics" in contrast to all those nasty non-believers. i do think 'the left's' self-realisation through belief and public articulation of belief is only comparable to traditional religious types. you don't see such explicit identity creation elsewhere across the political spectrum. [Post edited 11 Jun 2024 13:28]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:36 - Jun 11 with 2338 views | Herbivore |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:25 - Jun 11 by lowhouseblue |
well self-awareness isn't really your thing. but do keep patting yourself on your back, non-condescendingly of course, for "actually caring about and taking an interest in politics" in contrast to all those nasty non-believers. i do think 'the left's' self-realisation through belief and public articulation of belief is only comparable to traditional religious types. you don't see such explicit identity creation elsewhere across the political spectrum. [Post edited 11 Jun 2024 13:28]
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Zapers, who I was responding to, has been quite clear that he doesn't really care about/is not particularly interested in politics so I'm not sure why you're offended on his behalf when I've mentioned that in my post. It's rich you trying to condescend to others about self-awareness, I'm only surprised you've not fully embraced your inner Mail by calling all lefties virtue signalers. | |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:44 - Jun 11 with 2295 views | Geomorph |
yep |  | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:49 - Jun 11 with 2284 views | lowhouseblue |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:36 - Jun 11 by Herbivore |
Zapers, who I was responding to, has been quite clear that he doesn't really care about/is not particularly interested in politics so I'm not sure why you're offended on his behalf when I've mentioned that in my post. It's rich you trying to condescend to others about self-awareness, I'm only surprised you've not fully embraced your inner Mail by calling all lefties virtue signalers. |
well virtue is a good but often subjective thing. lots of people on here do very good things in the real world and it's nice when they post about them (and they unfailingly do it in a humble and self-depreciating way). but the performative curation of opinions so as to manufacture an online 'left' identity is an entirely different thing. it's also often very know it all and the opposite of self-depreciating. this isn't really an observation about twtd because on here it is really much milder than on lots of social media, but is a very interesting sociological phenomena of our age. the policing and labelling of other opinions and the othering of people who don't agree is all part of the manufacturing of identity. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 14:04 - Jun 11 with 2237 views | Cotty |
Guilty as charged |  | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:11 - Jun 11 with 2192 views | DJR |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:06 - Jun 11 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
The thing that frustrates me is the lack of any long term vision or planning from either party. Energy policy rarely looks beyond the next electoral cycle, Nuclear power for instance because of the long term planning always gets kicked into the next parliament yet could have played a part in reducing fossil fuel usage.
The same with the economy - both parties have been woefully inadequate at tacking the two main structural problems with the UK economy. Firstly our reliance on the tertiary sector (particularly financial services and retail). This imbalance has left us particularly vulnerable to economic shocks and slowdown (hence during COVID our economy retracted more than our Western European peers German and France. There needs to be more planning for diversifying our economy which nobody is interested doing since it till take longer than one electoral cycle.
The other is how centralised the UK economy is; and whilst ‘levelling up’ was clearly a load of bollox, it’s easy to see why the message reasonated to those in the North. The only major infrastructure project HS2 sums it up with the Northern branches axed. Germany is far more federalised with a spread of industry across the country, they’ve even made inroads into the poorer formerly East Germany. Moving some of our institutions out of London, whilst unpopular with civil servants seems like a sensible idea, especially in this age of remote working. Infrastructure also needs imporiving outside of London and the south east to lure private companies into the regions. That’s why I’m not into political tribalism, because both parties have had consecutive parliaments to tackle these issues, but both are more interested in assuming power via pointless tax bribes. [Post edited 11 Jun 2024 13:18]
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All very true, but I would argue that when, say, electricity was nationalised there was long-term planning, including the world's first civil nuclear power plants.
The problem it seems to me is that the political agenda is set even today by the right wing media, and very little of what they clamour for (eg. tax cuts, Brexit) is anything other than short-term. [Post edited 11 Jun 2024 14:12]
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| Are you a true lefty? on 14:12 - Jun 11 with 2184 views | Zapers |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:36 - Jun 11 by Herbivore |
Zapers, who I was responding to, has been quite clear that he doesn't really care about/is not particularly interested in politics so I'm not sure why you're offended on his behalf when I've mentioned that in my post. It's rich you trying to condescend to others about self-awareness, I'm only surprised you've not fully embraced your inner Mail by calling all lefties virtue signalers. |
Wrong, and you know it. I said that I was not as invested politically as some people on TWTD. The reference was to the half dozen or so posters that dominate the political threads.
This is very different to you accusing me of having no interest, because patently i do, otherwise i wouldn't have commented. | | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:21 - Jun 11 with 2159 views | Herbivore |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:12 - Jun 11 by Zapers |
Wrong, and you know it. I said that I was not as invested politically as some people on TWTD. The reference was to the half dozen or so posters that dominate the political threads.
This is very different to you accusing me of having no interest, because patently i do, otherwise i wouldn't have commented. |
You commented on the posting of other posters, not about politics, which is your usual approach to political threads. That plus you saying you're not that invested in politics led me to believe you aren't particularly interested in politics. | |
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