| Are you a true lefty? 10:35 - Jun 10 with 22222 views | DJR |
People often say on here that the forum is dominated by lefties (or pinkos as they were once disparagingly known).
This begs the question, what constitutes a lefty?
For my own part, I believe a true lefty in this country is someone who has never voted Tory or Liberal Democrat (or any of its former incarnations). And in every election since 1979, I have voted Labour, apart from in two local elections where there was no Labour candidate and I voted firstly for the Ecology Party and secondly for the Greens, both of which I would regard as left-leaning parties..
My hunch is that there is only a handful on TWTD like me, and it would be interesting to know who falls into the category, or if anyone else has their own definition of a lefty.
In all this, I am ignoring the fact that some people (myself included) might not regard the current Labour Party as truly left wing.
[Post edited 10 Jun 2024 13:02]
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:10 - Jun 10 with 2376 views | WeWereZombies |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:07 - Jun 10 by Herbivore |
Possibly, he spent a lot of time in London. He's been there for about 150 years now. |
I'll have to give him credit for sticking to his principles, he hasn't moved from that position in all this time... |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:11 - Jun 10 with 2380 views | JakeITFC |
I have only ever voted Labour or Green and will do so again in the upcoming election, although probably a bit through gritted teeth as I don't think the direction of travel for Labour is perfectly matched to my views (and worry that a thumping popular majority emboldens it rather than creates a need for change once in power).
The worry for me is that a genuine right-wing change ticket that comes next (if the Tories/Reform are a very small representation after this election) beats an uninspiring centrist government every time, which would make this a very hollow victory indeed. |  | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:11 - Jun 10 with 2377 views | DJR |
| Are you a true lefty? on 11:32 - Jun 10 by turtle2 |
i stood for UKIP 13 years ago
Having spent 57 years watching left wing politics cause more death , destruction and harm to the World - lets face it socialism and communism killed more in the 20th century than Hitler could have ever dreamed of - I thank my personal God for Farage being where he is - and in all liklihood the next Conservative PM = 4 years away when Stamer the wimp has totally destroyed the UK
lETS SEE IF FORUM MANAGEMENT ALLOW A DIFFERENT OPINION - Nothing offensive here (apart from to Stamer - its just banter) - just some "facts" and a different opinion |
We're a liberal democracy and you are just as entitled to your view as I. The only thing I would say is that my OP was concerned with this country, and I am not aware of a Labour government ever killing anyone. | | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:16 - Jun 10 with 2348 views | Herbivore |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:09 - Jun 10 by Plums |
I really find the left v right argument pretty puerile TBH - perhaps I'm also the centrist dad - whatever that is. I also happen to think party politics are toxic and unhelpful to the vast majority of people who just want to live a pretty equitable, uncomplicated, peaceful life.
I realised the other day that I don't think I've ever cast a vote in my own self interest so I'm definitely not a Conservative but I find the far left muddled, idealistic and lacking in pragmatism.
This election it's going to be Labour because it'll help remove the incumbent grifter. |
The binary of left and right doesn't really work very well these days anyway as political views can broadly be divided into economic and social issues and it's possible to be left in one sphere and right in the other. You will see old school Labour voters who believe in workers rights and taxing the rich but who think gay people shouldn't be in the army and there's too many Muslims in the country. Similarly, you get people like Cameron who legislated for gay marriage but who is economically conservative. My frustration, as someone who leans left economically and socially, is that we don't have any parties who are remotely left wing economically anymore. Labour are centre right economically, basically espousing the same neoliberal ideology of Thatcher for the most part. |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:17 - Jun 10 with 2345 views | mutters |
If somebody starts off as a BNP/NF supporter then moves to reforms you could argue that they are leftie compared to their previous brethren (or sistren) [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 13:17]
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:19 - Jun 10 with 2330 views | DJR |
| Are you a true lefty? on 12:15 - Jun 10 by DarkBrandon |
I think someone who just walks into a voting booth and votes Labour, seemingly without concern, whether they are led by Tony Blair or Jeremy Corbyn is more a supporter of a political party rather than a holder of a particular political viewpoint.
The same goes too for conservative voters, where their party has veered hugely on fiscal and foreign/trade policies [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 12:15]
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My political views were formed as a 14 year old during the February 1974 election, and they haven't changed since. It's just the political centre of gravity has moved to the right over the years. As regards voting Labour, I have done so because they have most closely represented my views, and because being an active member I have felt an emotional attachment to them, something I no longer really feel. | | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:21 - Jun 10 with 2314 views | homer_123 |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:16 - Jun 10 by Herbivore |
The binary of left and right doesn't really work very well these days anyway as political views can broadly be divided into economic and social issues and it's possible to be left in one sphere and right in the other. You will see old school Labour voters who believe in workers rights and taxing the rich but who think gay people shouldn't be in the army and there's too many Muslims in the country. Similarly, you get people like Cameron who legislated for gay marriage but who is economically conservative. My frustration, as someone who leans left economically and socially, is that we don't have any parties who are remotely left wing economically anymore. Labour are centre right economically, basically espousing the same neoliberal ideology of Thatcher for the most part. |
One would guess that the centre right economic approach is a 'vote winner' as opposed to ideology though?
That economic viewpoint is 'safe' in as much you are likely to please more of the electorate with that approach. If we look at what was offered by JC, which, on paper, was a far more left leaning (relatively speaking) economic approach - it was not well received (there's a very strong argument that we need a economic and social shift for lots of reasons). |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:22 - Jun 10 with 2309 views | homer_123 |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:17 - Jun 10 by mutters |
If somebody starts off as a BNP/NF supporter then moves to reforms you could argue that they are leftie compared to their previous brethren (or sistren) [Post edited 10 Jun 2024 13:17]
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Aren't Reform basically the NF though? | |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:26 - Jun 10 with 2297 views | Herbivore |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:21 - Jun 10 by homer_123 |
One would guess that the centre right economic approach is a 'vote winner' as opposed to ideology though?
That economic viewpoint is 'safe' in as much you are likely to please more of the electorate with that approach. If we look at what was offered by JC, which, on paper, was a far more left leaning (relatively speaking) economic approach - it was not well received (there's a very strong argument that we need a economic and social shift for lots of reasons). |
As has been discussed in the past, individually Corbyn's policies were all quite popular, but there was a feeling that they weren't realistic. We've been indoctrinated in this country to think that neoliberal capitalism is the only game in town so anyone suggesting moves to change that is viewed with scepticism. It's interesting, on many issues when you look at polling both the UK and US are quite left leaning in many of people's attitudes and yet both countries are dominated politically by the centre right and right wing. Shows how powerful the elite, with the aid of the media they own, are in steering the agenda and shaping the narrative. | |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:29 - Jun 10 with 2280 views | homer_123 |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:26 - Jun 10 by Herbivore |
As has been discussed in the past, individually Corbyn's policies were all quite popular, but there was a feeling that they weren't realistic. We've been indoctrinated in this country to think that neoliberal capitalism is the only game in town so anyone suggesting moves to change that is viewed with scepticism. It's interesting, on many issues when you look at polling both the UK and US are quite left leaning in many of people's attitudes and yet both countries are dominated politically by the centre right and right wing. Shows how powerful the elite, with the aid of the media they own, are in steering the agenda and shaping the narrative. |
Indeed - JC's 'seemed' radical but in actuality weren't.
Agreed, on this in particular: Shows how powerful the elite, with the aid of the media they own, are in steering the agenda and shaping the narrative. | |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:35 - Jun 10 with 2245 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Are you a true lefty? on 12:41 - Jun 10 by Swansea_Blue |
I'm a bit like that with dressing. Sometimes I hang to the right, sometimes to the left. |
Me too, it all depends where the salad is on the plate.... |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:36 - Jun 10 with 2245 views | mutters |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:22 - Jun 10 by homer_123 |
Aren't Reform basically the NF though? |
I really hope not else they have a huge membership now according to polls! | |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:37 - Jun 10 with 2242 views | hype313 |
Haven't a clue to be honest, the lines are so blurred now can't see the wood through the trees.
Both parties are in a state of flux, not knowing which way to turn and completely void of any DNA, then we have the far right rising up here and across Europ,e which is a huge concern and cannot understand why the MSM give them so much airtime.
If this continues and we don't learn the lessons of the past, then I truly hope we get wiped out by an Asteroid and call it a day.
On that positive note.... |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:47 - Jun 10 with 2207 views | NthQldITFC |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:26 - Jun 10 by Herbivore |
As has been discussed in the past, individually Corbyn's policies were all quite popular, but there was a feeling that they weren't realistic. We've been indoctrinated in this country to think that neoliberal capitalism is the only game in town so anyone suggesting moves to change that is viewed with scepticism. It's interesting, on many issues when you look at polling both the UK and US are quite left leaning in many of people's attitudes and yet both countries are dominated politically by the centre right and right wing. Shows how powerful the elite, with the aid of the media they own, are in steering the agenda and shaping the narrative. |
Neoliberal capitalism driving policy, feeding and being enabled by individual narrow, short-term self-interest driving the electorate. We override our social and environmental consciences to suckle the beast, trying to ignore the blindingly obvious cancerous and terminal nature of the monster. |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:47 - Jun 10 with 2206 views | itfcjoe |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:06 - Jun 10 by DJR |
If you read the Telegraph, some columnists accuse the Tory government of being too socialist these last 14 years. Hence the demand for what they call true Conservatism. |
Yep, I often come across bits in there - Allister Heath my favourite as is just truly demented |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:50 - Jun 10 with 2190 views | itfcjoe |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:09 - Jun 10 by Plums |
I really find the left v right argument pretty puerile TBH - perhaps I'm also the centrist dad - whatever that is. I also happen to think party politics are toxic and unhelpful to the vast majority of people who just want to live a pretty equitable, uncomplicated, peaceful life.
I realised the other day that I don't think I've ever cast a vote in my own self interest so I'm definitely not a Conservative but I find the far left muddled, idealistic and lacking in pragmatism.
This election it's going to be Labour because it'll help remove the incumbent grifter. |
I guess things move around me, and my perspective changes over time and as I get married, have children etc I come into contact with different parts of the state and that influences my views.
I'm now a member of the Labour party, I won't necessarily be one forever, but feel I need to help where I can to get rid of this Tory Govt which since 2015 has been just dragging us so far down the wrong road and trying to keep their party together at the expense of everyone else. | |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 13:50 - Jun 10 with 2183 views | DJR |
| Are you a true lefty? on 12:16 - Jun 10 by Lord_Lucan |
Some of my views are quite left and some quite right, I think you have to be a bit of a berk to lean one way just because it suits what you are supposed to say on the tin.
I'm definitely not a true lefty though and never could be.
I would like to think I am far too pragmatic. |
So far as I am concerned, there isn't a tin, just views I have held since I was 14 when I followed the arguments on TV. | | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:01 - Jun 10 with 2156 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Do you mean economically left, or sociallly? Because there are plenty of socially conservative but economically left leaning voters (Harry10, the Red Wall. Isn’t that the circle that Corbyn failed to square, appealing to both metropolitan, liberal, Momentum-types, and the traditional more conservative, patriotic voters in the North of England. This is why Starmer has shifted to less overtly progressive policies.
I see myself as a centrist, I wonder how much our views are shaped by our employment. There’s undoubtedly a civil servant-heavy demographic on here vs the wider country. Surely anyone employed by the state is not going to vote Tory (turkey’s and Christmas..). Whereas those employed in the private sector, I suspect would be more likely to ‘float’ to whoever they see providing the best foundations for a strong economy. |  | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:06 - Jun 10 with 2128 views | DanTheMan |
| Are you a true lefty? on 13:16 - Jun 10 by Herbivore |
The binary of left and right doesn't really work very well these days anyway as political views can broadly be divided into economic and social issues and it's possible to be left in one sphere and right in the other. You will see old school Labour voters who believe in workers rights and taxing the rich but who think gay people shouldn't be in the army and there's too many Muslims in the country. Similarly, you get people like Cameron who legislated for gay marriage but who is economically conservative. My frustration, as someone who leans left economically and socially, is that we don't have any parties who are remotely left wing economically anymore. Labour are centre right economically, basically espousing the same neoliberal ideology of Thatcher for the most part. |
One of my biggest bugbears at the moment is that nobody wants to talk about some of the most serious issues causing things like high immigration for example.
We've got a demographic timebomb coming with an elderly population but all politicians are saying they'll bring immigration down (which is fine if that's what the country wants) but they don't talk about the very obvious issues that would cause unless we have another baby boom.
Think the IFS said over the weekend that neither big party are being honest with voters either about the horrible decisions that are going to have to happen because we're in so much of a mess. |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 14:09 - Jun 10 with 2116 views | homer_123 |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:06 - Jun 10 by DanTheMan |
One of my biggest bugbears at the moment is that nobody wants to talk about some of the most serious issues causing things like high immigration for example.
We've got a demographic timebomb coming with an elderly population but all politicians are saying they'll bring immigration down (which is fine if that's what the country wants) but they don't talk about the very obvious issues that would cause unless we have another baby boom.
Think the IFS said over the weekend that neither big party are being honest with voters either about the horrible decisions that are going to have to happen because we're in so much of a mess. |
I'd go further.
No one wants to have a conversation/ debate around more fundamental things like the NHS, Education etc/ and what sort of Country we want to be. | |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 14:12 - Jun 10 with 2113 views | Pencilpete |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:01 - Jun 10 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Do you mean economically left, or sociallly? Because there are plenty of socially conservative but economically left leaning voters (Harry10, the Red Wall. Isn’t that the circle that Corbyn failed to square, appealing to both metropolitan, liberal, Momentum-types, and the traditional more conservative, patriotic voters in the North of England. This is why Starmer has shifted to less overtly progressive policies.
I see myself as a centrist, I wonder how much our views are shaped by our employment. There’s undoubtedly a civil servant-heavy demographic on here vs the wider country. Surely anyone employed by the state is not going to vote Tory (turkey’s and Christmas..). Whereas those employed in the private sector, I suspect would be more likely to ‘float’ to whoever they see providing the best foundations for a strong economy. |
I don't believe in voting Conservative or Labour blindly every time ... i try and vote for whoever i think will do the best job.
This time i'm a bit stuck because the Conservatives have made an absolute pigs ear of everything so in my normal world i'd vote Labour but if i'm honest they arn't really offering anything either, if Starmer was a football manager he'd be Big Mick he just doesn't have the aura of a guy who is going to turn things around ..... Some of the things i've heard the Liberals and the greens say sound like they've borrowed policies off the monster raving looney party.
I never thought i'd hear myself say this but i might actually vote for Nigel Farage !! | | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:17 - Jun 10 with 2097 views | DJR |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:01 - Jun 10 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Do you mean economically left, or sociallly? Because there are plenty of socially conservative but economically left leaning voters (Harry10, the Red Wall. Isn’t that the circle that Corbyn failed to square, appealing to both metropolitan, liberal, Momentum-types, and the traditional more conservative, patriotic voters in the North of England. This is why Starmer has shifted to less overtly progressive policies.
I see myself as a centrist, I wonder how much our views are shaped by our employment. There’s undoubtedly a civil servant-heavy demographic on here vs the wider country. Surely anyone employed by the state is not going to vote Tory (turkey’s and Christmas..). Whereas those employed in the private sector, I suspect would be more likely to ‘float’ to whoever they see providing the best foundations for a strong economy. |
I did mean both economically and socially, my philosophy being, for example, that I believed at the time that the public utilities were better in public hands and should not have been privatised. But I was happy with the level of nationalisation in the 1970s (something supported at the time by the Tories), and didn't support the further nationalisation etc envisaged by Clause IV. That probably makes me more of a social democrat than a socialist as those terms are strictly defined, but I am happy to use the terms socialist.
As regards the public sector, a high percentage do vote Tory, something I could never understand.
https://nursingnotes.co.uk/news/politics/two-in-five-healthcare-workers-vote-con
And as regard those employed in the private sector, many it seems to me are tricked into voting for something that they think benefits them when in fact the current state of public services does not in fact benefit them at all. In other words, a cut in income tax may well trump everything, despite its effect on public services and the fact that it is mirrored by tax rises elsewhere (eg stealth taxes, and increases in VAT). | | | |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:27 - Jun 10 with 2063 views | mutters |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:17 - Jun 10 by DJR |
I did mean both economically and socially, my philosophy being, for example, that I believed at the time that the public utilities were better in public hands and should not have been privatised. But I was happy with the level of nationalisation in the 1970s (something supported at the time by the Tories), and didn't support the further nationalisation etc envisaged by Clause IV. That probably makes me more of a social democrat than a socialist as those terms are strictly defined, but I am happy to use the terms socialist.
As regards the public sector, a high percentage do vote Tory, something I could never understand.
https://nursingnotes.co.uk/news/politics/two-in-five-healthcare-workers-vote-con
And as regard those employed in the private sector, many it seems to me are tricked into voting for something that they think benefits them when in fact the current state of public services does not in fact benefit them at all. In other words, a cut in income tax may well trump everything, despite its effect on public services and the fact that it is mirrored by tax rises elsewhere (eg stealth taxes, and increases in VAT). |
What was privatised under labour in the 70s? I've always thought that privatisation started under Thatchers post 79 with British Aerospace being one of the first ones? | |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 14:32 - Jun 10 with 2042 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:06 - Jun 10 by DanTheMan |
One of my biggest bugbears at the moment is that nobody wants to talk about some of the most serious issues causing things like high immigration for example.
We've got a demographic timebomb coming with an elderly population but all politicians are saying they'll bring immigration down (which is fine if that's what the country wants) but they don't talk about the very obvious issues that would cause unless we have another baby boom.
Think the IFS said over the weekend that neither big party are being honest with voters either about the horrible decisions that are going to have to happen because we're in so much of a mess. |
Yep. Far easier to blame foreigners for everything than address our demographic changes, or any of the other major issues, such as:
- growing inequality
- climate change
- lack of investment and crumbling services
- Brexit fallout
- why there's a record number of migrants globally
They would take hard work, consensus and prioritisation away from the things you need to do to get elected. The Tories turned governing into full time campaigning. It'll be interesting to see if Labour take the same approach or are prepared to do difficult stuff that may be unpopular. |  |
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| Are you a true lefty? on 14:33 - Jun 10 with 2035 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Are you a true lefty? on 14:17 - Jun 10 by DJR |
I did mean both economically and socially, my philosophy being, for example, that I believed at the time that the public utilities were better in public hands and should not have been privatised. But I was happy with the level of nationalisation in the 1970s (something supported at the time by the Tories), and didn't support the further nationalisation etc envisaged by Clause IV. That probably makes me more of a social democrat than a socialist as those terms are strictly defined, but I am happy to use the terms socialist.
As regards the public sector, a high percentage do vote Tory, something I could never understand.
https://nursingnotes.co.uk/news/politics/two-in-five-healthcare-workers-vote-con
And as regard those employed in the private sector, many it seems to me are tricked into voting for something that they think benefits them when in fact the current state of public services does not in fact benefit them at all. In other words, a cut in income tax may well trump everything, despite its effect on public services and the fact that it is mirrored by tax rises elsewhere (eg stealth taxes, and increases in VAT). |
“ And as regard those employed in the private sector, many it seems to me are tricked into voting for something that they think benefits them when in fact the current state of public services does not in fact benefit them at all. In other words, a cut in income tax may well trump everything, despite its effect on public services and the fact that it is mirrored by tax rises elsewhere (eg stealth taxes, and increases in VAT).”
Apologies if I was unclear - I didn’t mean vote based on fiscal policy. Rather which party would deliver the strongest economic growth, which tends to lead to a more mobile labour market, and therefore stronger pay growth for those employed in the private sector. Indeed a strong private sector is also beneficial to public services, given the greater tax base (albeit with the caveat that the spending and allocation of which is dependent on the governing party’s policy). | | | |
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