| Olympic boxing controversy 12:28 - Aug 1 with 24012 views | SitfcB |
Didn’t end well.
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:30 - Aug 1 with 3329 views | Lord_Lucan |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:12 - Aug 1 by Churchman |
It wasn’t ’possible unfair advantage’. Nor is it right or left wing or a culture war as far as I’m concerned. I saw Semenya and her competitors relatively close up. It wasn’t right. It was ludicrous. Ok, so we want to be all correct and say ‘genetic luck’ and stuff and somebody strolls round winning every time by a mile - fine. Who cares. The sport becomes a waste of time and dies. Who cares. It doesn’t matter.
But in this instance and the one fighting tomorrow a woman could die or get seriously hurt. The result is a forgone conclusion, but that matters not a jot compared to the well-being of people.
It’s so simple. The Boxing Federation did all the work for them yet they still got it wrong. |
The thing I don't understand is why someone would want to win like this.
It beggars belief |  |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:33 - Aug 1 with 3326 views | LankHenners |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:12 - Aug 1 by Churchman |
It wasn’t ’possible unfair advantage’. Nor is it right or left wing or a culture war as far as I’m concerned. I saw Semenya and her competitors relatively close up. It wasn’t right. It was ludicrous. Ok, so we want to be all correct and say ‘genetic luck’ and stuff and somebody strolls round winning every time by a mile - fine. Who cares. The sport becomes a waste of time and dies. Who cares. It doesn’t matter.
But in this instance and the one fighting tomorrow a woman could die or get seriously hurt. The result is a forgone conclusion, but that matters not a jot compared to the well-being of people.
It’s so simple. The Boxing Federation did all the work for them yet they still got it wrong. |
Hang on, you are aware that the two women in question are not some super strong humans with killer punches right? As has already been said in the thread with regards to Khelif she's not seen as a heavy hitter and was beaten before medals came into it at the previous Olympics.
To say the pair of them are a unique danger to their opponents (in a sport where you have to try and knock the crap out of each other) is a bit ridiculous really and not grounded in reality. |  |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:51 - Aug 1 with 3245 views | Churchman |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:33 - Aug 1 by LankHenners |
Hang on, you are aware that the two women in question are not some super strong humans with killer punches right? As has already been said in the thread with regards to Khelif she's not seen as a heavy hitter and was beaten before medals came into it at the previous Olympics.
To say the pair of them are a unique danger to their opponents (in a sport where you have to try and knock the crap out of each other) is a bit ridiculous really and not grounded in reality. |
Have you seen the footage and heard what the Italian woman had to say? Have you seen the footage of the Mexican woman being clomped round the ring? This person may not hit like Frazier, Foreman and Tyson, but it looks on the footage less than pleasant.
If you were on the IOC, would you allow this when the Boxing federation at last year’s World Championships didn’t? I wouldn’t, but we all have different views. |  | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:55 - Aug 1 with 3220 views | itfcjoe |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:55 - Aug 1 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
But we aren’t talking about genetics - the allegations are that she had elevated testosterone levels which is a hormone. Testosterone is also controlled in the men’s sport to avoid competitors using steroids to gain an advantage. This is also for the safety of the boxers, otherwise you may as well remove all testing and just let the sport turn into a load of juiced up monsters brawling.
At this stage though it’s still unclear how fair and proper those tests were so I’m going to reserve judgement until more is known. But I am disagreeing that IF the elevated testosterone is TRUE then no it is not some genetic advantage, and even if that was your view - breaks the rules of the sport which are there for the protection of competitors (and as someone that partakes in combat sports I feel quite strongly about). |
I think if those results weren’t fair and proper then there is a fairly obvious next step that would have taken place to debunk them, the fact that hasn’t happened speaks volumes |  |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:58 - Aug 1 with 3206 views | grow_our_own |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:33 - Aug 1 by LankHenners |
Hang on, you are aware that the two women in question are not some super strong humans with killer punches right? As has already been said in the thread with regards to Khelif she's not seen as a heavy hitter and was beaten before medals came into it at the previous Olympics.
To say the pair of them are a unique danger to their opponents (in a sport where you have to try and knock the crap out of each other) is a bit ridiculous really and not grounded in reality. |
This is not about Khelif being a "unique danger". Born men (including XY DSD) have more testosterone, and hence are stronger *on average* than born women. It's therefore unfair and in the case of combat sports, unsafe for women to be asked to fight born men.
As others have said, it's a direct choice between inclusion or fairness and safety. You can't have both. It doesn't make me happy to say it, but unfortunately DSD and trans women simply cannot be allowed in many female sports, no matter if they identify as women. |  | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 23:00 - Aug 1 with 3209 views | PhilTWTD |
That wasn't quite the case that it was 'man v woman' or 'trans woman v woman', more complicated than that. Will amend your OP as not a fair reflection.
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 23:03 - Aug 1 with 3139 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:33 - Aug 1 by LankHenners |
Hang on, you are aware that the two women in question are not some super strong humans with killer punches right? As has already been said in the thread with regards to Khelif she's not seen as a heavy hitter and was beaten before medals came into it at the previous Olympics.
To say the pair of them are a unique danger to their opponents (in a sport where you have to try and knock the crap out of each other) is a bit ridiculous really and not grounded in reality. |
Funny you think that’s ridiculous when you’ve completely ignored/don’t understand the rules of the sport.
I wonder if you’d be cool if someone in your family was competing with an athlete (in boxing or any contact sport) who’s known to be on steroids and already banned from a previous competition? If the claims of elevated testosterone are true that’s the equivalent.
It may well turn out that the IBO testing was suspect, in which case the story is a completely different one. As someone who does combat sports there’s not a chance I agree to spar or fight someone on elevated testosterone. | | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 23:04 - Aug 1 with 3155 views | positivity |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 23:00 - Aug 1 by PhilTWTD |
That wasn't quite the case that it was 'man v woman' or 'trans woman v woman', more complicated than that. Will amend your OP as not a fair reflection.
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can you change the title of the post? clearly innacurate and discriminatory, though the debate is worth having | |
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| olympic boxing controversy on 23:05 - Aug 1 with 3143 views | positivity |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 23:04 - Aug 1 by positivity |
can you change the title of the post? clearly innacurate and discriminatory, though the debate is worth having |
ah, i see you've done it, thanks! (shame it doesn't change on the replies, but think that's a longstanding issue...) | |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 23:09 - Aug 1 with 3092 views | LankHenners |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:51 - Aug 1 by Churchman |
Have you seen the footage and heard what the Italian woman had to say? Have you seen the footage of the Mexican woman being clomped round the ring? This person may not hit like Frazier, Foreman and Tyson, but it looks on the footage less than pleasant.
If you were on the IOC, would you allow this when the Boxing federation at last year’s World Championships didn’t? I wouldn’t, but we all have different views. |
The footage of her leaving her face completely unguarded and getting rocked right in the chin? Yeah that's never happened in the sport before. The Italian woman went out meekly in the first round last time as well - maybe she's just not at the level that a lot of other boxers at the Games are, which is what a lot of people who know far more about it than me have concluded.
I don't think anyone should be placing too much stock in the IBA's decision making when it lost its status from the IOC for being corrupt and being too closely tied to Putin until there's more transparency over exactly what the tests they carried out involved. As I said, both boxers were at the last Olympics and didn't get to the medal contention stage so it's not as if they're anywhere near being dominant over the field in the way you appear to be suggesting they are. | |
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| olympic boxing controversy on 23:11 - Aug 1 with 3071 views | PhilTWTD |
| olympic boxing controversy on 23:05 - Aug 1 by positivity |
ah, i see you've done it, thanks! (shame it doesn't change on the replies, but think that's a longstanding issue...) |
It's a fair point. You'll have to take that up with Gav! | | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 23:20 - Aug 1 with 3004 views | LankHenners |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 23:03 - Aug 1 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Funny you think that’s ridiculous when you’ve completely ignored/don’t understand the rules of the sport.
I wonder if you’d be cool if someone in your family was competing with an athlete (in boxing or any contact sport) who’s known to be on steroids and already banned from a previous competition? If the claims of elevated testosterone are true that’s the equivalent.
It may well turn out that the IBO testing was suspect, in which case the story is a completely different one. As someone who does combat sports there’s not a chance I agree to spar or fight someone on elevated testosterone. |
The poster claimed the fight today shouldn't have gone ahead because the other woman could have been killed or seriously hurt. The latter is a bit of a daft point to make about a sport like boxing in any case and it's clearly ridiculous to suggest Khelif was capable of killing her.
Well that's good for you but clearly a number of other women boxers, including those who have fought (and beaten!) Khelif, don't agree she's dangerous to get in the ring with.
I just don't agree that it's as big an issue as people are trying to make out. If she was winning every fight at a canter, knocking opponents out left right and centre then there'd be a conversation to be had but she's not even close to that point. | |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 23:27 - Aug 1 with 2983 views | Bigalhunter |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:40 - Aug 1 by Hiphopopotamus |
Well done Sitters on another thoughtful, accurate and sensitive thread title!!!!! You’re having a very special day today!!!!!! |
Stop sh1te stirring.
He’s just made an ill-judged post, followed by an ill-judged mistake, 72 hours after an ill-judged post.
[Post edited 1 Aug 2024 23:31]
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 00:23 - Aug 2 with 2896 views | Clapham_Junction |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:09 - Aug 1 by Churchman |
Sorry, I think there is a conversation to be had. Abhorrent gender bait? I don’t see that. But if people do, that’s up to them.
Better than seeing somebody killed or critically injured in a boxing ring. No sport is worth that. |
That's the risk of a sport that involves actively trying to seriously hurt your opponent. Hundreds of people have been killed in fights, including a British guy who was killed in May.
I'm personally amazed boxing is still allowed/deemed socially acceptable. [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 0:48]
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 00:25 - Aug 2 with 2885 views | Vegtablue |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:33 - Aug 1 by monkeymagic |
I strongly suspect I am in a minority here but isn’t having a genetic advantage just ‘good fortune’? I don’t doubt every elite athlete works incredibly hard to reach the top but however much I trained, it wasn’t going to be enough. Isn’t it essentially a case of someone being gifted? |
You raise an interesting point for sure. In less cuddly, less pc times of yore, these women may well have been stripped down in the changing rooms, found in some cases to present with typical female sex parts, and cleared to compete as more genetically gifted athletes. Some would have presented with more ambiguous genitalia and been disqualified.
It's because of advances in science and research that we know so much more about DSD, and the significance of such differences for physical development (positive or negative). Yet significant variation in genetic potential also exists in men and women with typical sex biology, for any given sport - hormonal advantages, anatomical, and so on. Normal sex development doesn't create a level playing field for men or women, what with our individual genetic ceilings, so why treat DSD differently?
Around 1.7% of the population is believed to have intersex traits, with 0.5% having clinically identifiable sexual variations. Some will be born with observable male sex parts but without the hormonal advantages related to male puberty. We wouldn't suggest this group should be eligible to compete in women's sport, but in some cases their testosterone levels and muscle growth potential will be inside or below normal female levels.
Around 1% of women are over 6ft tall. In events in which height is a huge advantage, such as the high jump, is it fair to allow the giants to compete with the rest of us? It isn't in respect to our ability to compete - a fit 6ft4 athlete is going to clear a greater height than a fit 5ft2 athlete, if trained for the high jump - but crucially height isn't relevant to determining sex classification. This is the crux of the argument for not embracing intersex athletes as just genetically gifted (or stunted); their advantages (or disadvantages) undermine the normal delineation between male and female sex. | | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 07:05 - Aug 2 with 2722 views | jayessess |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 00:25 - Aug 2 by Vegtablue |
You raise an interesting point for sure. In less cuddly, less pc times of yore, these women may well have been stripped down in the changing rooms, found in some cases to present with typical female sex parts, and cleared to compete as more genetically gifted athletes. Some would have presented with more ambiguous genitalia and been disqualified.
It's because of advances in science and research that we know so much more about DSD, and the significance of such differences for physical development (positive or negative). Yet significant variation in genetic potential also exists in men and women with typical sex biology, for any given sport - hormonal advantages, anatomical, and so on. Normal sex development doesn't create a level playing field for men or women, what with our individual genetic ceilings, so why treat DSD differently?
Around 1.7% of the population is believed to have intersex traits, with 0.5% having clinically identifiable sexual variations. Some will be born with observable male sex parts but without the hormonal advantages related to male puberty. We wouldn't suggest this group should be eligible to compete in women's sport, but in some cases their testosterone levels and muscle growth potential will be inside or below normal female levels.
Around 1% of women are over 6ft tall. In events in which height is a huge advantage, such as the high jump, is it fair to allow the giants to compete with the rest of us? It isn't in respect to our ability to compete - a fit 6ft4 athlete is going to clear a greater height than a fit 5ft2 athlete, if trained for the high jump - but crucially height isn't relevant to determining sex classification. This is the crux of the argument for not embracing intersex athletes as just genetically gifted (or stunted); their advantages (or disadvantages) undermine the normal delineation between male and female sex. |
For the vast majority of the history of women's sports it wouldn't have even been a question - birth certificate and passport would have been examined, end of story. Presumably lots of women with some male genetic characteristics have competed in women's sports over the years without anyone really noticing or caring. They were just accepted as women with exceptional athleticism (it's the Olympics!).
There's a bit of hysteria here, Khelif's record is mixed, she's clearly not the Ivan Drago of 66kg women's amateur boxing. Angela Carini's not made any judgement other than that she got hit hard ( https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/01/angela-carini-abandons-fig and Khelif's next opponent is bullish about her chances.
What is happening is that Imane Khelif, born a woman, socialised as a woman, lived her whole life as a woman, in a country with very conservative politics around gender and sexuality, is now being attacked widely as a cheat and an imposter, as a man who beats up women, just for inhabiting the gender she was told she was from birth and excelling at sports. [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 7:12]
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 07:20 - Aug 2 with 2680 views | Churchman |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 00:23 - Aug 2 by Clapham_Junction |
That's the risk of a sport that involves actively trying to seriously hurt your opponent. Hundreds of people have been killed in fights, including a British guy who was killed in May.
I'm personally amazed boxing is still allowed/deemed socially acceptable. [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 0:48]
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Although this debate is about something slightly different in respect of a sport that’s allowed, I actually agree with the point you make. Times change and for me it is a yesterday sport. | | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 07:38 - Aug 2 with 2625 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 23:20 - Aug 1 by LankHenners |
The poster claimed the fight today shouldn't have gone ahead because the other woman could have been killed or seriously hurt. The latter is a bit of a daft point to make about a sport like boxing in any case and it's clearly ridiculous to suggest Khelif was capable of killing her.
Well that's good for you but clearly a number of other women boxers, including those who have fought (and beaten!) Khelif, don't agree she's dangerous to get in the ring with.
I just don't agree that it's as big an issue as people are trying to make out. If she was winning every fight at a canter, knocking opponents out left right and centre then there'd be a conversation to be had but she's not even close to that point. |
That’s just daft - you are essentially saying we can overlook people taking PED’s drugs just so long as they aren’t pulling up trees. Maybe we get the Towen team juiced up so they are a bit quicker and stronger, all would be fine just so long as we don’t win the league.
Why don’t we stop testing in boxing altogether, that would be much better, then her opponents can take testosterone and even things up a little. With no testing it would be much fairer to those with naturally higher levels, and everyone can take all the PED’s they want.
It’s not clear what testing the IOC has carried out, but the same rules should apply to all. I have a choice whether I’d do that but for the competitors here it’s their livelihood/future career at stake, at an event that’s the pinnacle of the amateur sport which only comes round every 4 years. They don’t really have a choice.
Edit - going to leave it here at this point, I’m still open minded about the credibility of the IBO judgement there’s a slight whiff of dodginess there- I’m just making an argument based on if an athlete DID have elevated testosterone. [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 7:43]
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 07:42 - Aug 2 with 2625 views | Churchman |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:33 - Aug 1 by LankHenners |
Hang on, you are aware that the two women in question are not some super strong humans with killer punches right? As has already been said in the thread with regards to Khelif she's not seen as a heavy hitter and was beaten before medals came into it at the previous Olympics.
To say the pair of them are a unique danger to their opponents (in a sport where you have to try and knock the crap out of each other) is a bit ridiculous really and not grounded in reality. |
Sean Strickland sums it up for me
‘Here's the facts. The Olympics didn't test this boxer for political reasons. This boxer has failed a gender test in the past. The boxer may be intersex.. This situation was created because the Olympics failed their athletes and their fans out of political wokeness.’
You may perceive it as weakness on the Italian’s part (and the Mexican beaten round the ring like a beach ball in this thread). You may also dismiss the Boxing Federation as corrupt and of no consequence and the IOC far more ‘on it’. Was the failed gender test made up?
You may believe that women cannot punch hard and that political correctness must win. But seeing somebody with the body of Sugar Ray Leonard clamber in the ring against a woman doesn’t sit well with me. | | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 08:01 - Aug 2 with 2566 views | jayessess |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 07:42 - Aug 2 by Churchman |
Sean Strickland sums it up for me
‘Here's the facts. The Olympics didn't test this boxer for political reasons. This boxer has failed a gender test in the past. The boxer may be intersex.. This situation was created because the Olympics failed their athletes and their fans out of political wokeness.’
You may perceive it as weakness on the Italian’s part (and the Mexican beaten round the ring like a beach ball in this thread). You may also dismiss the Boxing Federation as corrupt and of no consequence and the IOC far more ‘on it’. Was the failed gender test made up?
You may believe that women cannot punch hard and that political correctness must win. But seeing somebody with the body of Sugar Ray Leonard clamber in the ring against a woman doesn’t sit well with me. |
The IOC's rules haven't changed. Was the Olympics (one of the most conservative international bodies on the planet!) "woke" in 1900?
(There are lots of women boxers with similar (bigger even!) physiques to Imane Khelif by the way) [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 8:10]
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| A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 08:54 - Aug 2 with 2474 views | blueasfook |
| A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 12:50 - Aug 1 by DanTheMan |
That's not really how biology works, hence mentioning intersex people. |
Intersex anatomy
When someone is intersex, they might have body differences a doctor could notice at birth or internal differences that could go unnoticed. For example, a baby might have a larger than usual clitoris, no vaginal opening, a very small penis, or other features that doctors sometimes refer to as ambiguous genitalia, meaning features that make determining sex more difficult. An intersex person might have both ovarian and testicular tissue.
I think i might be intersex. |  |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 09:11 - Aug 2 with 2427 views | Pinewoodblue |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 08:01 - Aug 2 by jayessess |
The IOC's rules haven't changed. Was the Olympics (one of the most conservative international bodies on the planet!) "woke" in 1900?
(There are lots of women boxers with similar (bigger even!) physiques to Imane Khelif by the way) [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 8:10]
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Most Olympic sports are policed by the sports governing body. Boxing is an exception. The IOC approach is simplistic. If you passport says you are female you can compete in female sports. |  |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 09:29 - Aug 2 with 2374 views | jayessess |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 09:11 - Aug 2 by Pinewoodblue |
Most Olympic sports are policed by the sports governing body. Boxing is an exception. The IOC approach is simplistic. If you passport says you are female you can compete in female sports. |
So absolutely nothing to do with "wokeness" (unless the IBA's exclusion as part of sanctions on Russia is somehow "woke"). [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 9:47]
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 10:19 - Aug 2 with 2234 views | Ryorry |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 07:42 - Aug 2 by Churchman |
Sean Strickland sums it up for me
‘Here's the facts. The Olympics didn't test this boxer for political reasons. This boxer has failed a gender test in the past. The boxer may be intersex.. This situation was created because the Olympics failed their athletes and their fans out of political wokeness.’
You may perceive it as weakness on the Italian’s part (and the Mexican beaten round the ring like a beach ball in this thread). You may also dismiss the Boxing Federation as corrupt and of no consequence and the IOC far more ‘on it’. Was the failed gender test made up?
You may believe that women cannot punch hard and that political correctness must win. But seeing somebody with the body of Sugar Ray Leonard clamber in the ring against a woman doesn’t sit well with me. |
In the C4 series ’SAS’, when they do the 1 on 1 all out fight challenge, the instructors take great care, on safety grounds, to match up contestants of like physiques, whether m or f. That includes height, weight, strength and reach, not necessarily gender. [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 10:26]
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 10:28 - Aug 2 with 2181 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 09:29 - Aug 2 by jayessess |
So absolutely nothing to do with "wokeness" (unless the IBA's exclusion as part of sanctions on Russia is somehow "woke"). [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 9:47]
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Let’s just see how this plays out before trying to score points. If she turns pro, and has elevated testosterone she will be banned from competing - and it won’t be anything to do with wokeness or culture wars. | | | |
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