| Olympic boxing controversy 12:28 - Aug 1 with 24061 views | SitfcB |
Didn’t end well.
This post has been edited by an administrator |  |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 16:14 - Aug 1 with 2047 views | itfcjoe |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 15:30 - Aug 1 by Cafe_Newman |
Good points.
You're right, "inclusivity" isn't what it says on the tin when others don't want to be involved in it because it's not fair.
There are other factors involved too. If the Algerian fighter has been one of our girls who had left someone else crying, most of us would be crying sour grapes.
Perhaps a 3rd 'open category' is the answer, though everyone taking part would have to be given a medal. |
The IOC framework considers Inclusivity as the number 1 priority and fairness is just number 4 - what happened today is the competition they've designed. It isn't bad luck or unfortunate.
https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Human-Rights/IOC-
And a document required to tell you what language should be used - don't call it a DSD, say a Sex Variation etc
https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Gender-Equality-i
Compare that to the IBA (Section 4.2)
https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/20240303-IBA-Technical-Competit
4.2. Eligibility on Gender
4.2.1. Boxers will compete against boxers of the same gender, meaning Women vs
Women and Men vs Men as per the definitions of these Rules.
4.2.2. To determine the gender, the Boxers can be submitted to a random and/or
targeted gender test which will be conducted by IBA in cooperation with the
selected laboratory personnel.
4.2.3. In case of adverse result, the Boxer will be immediately notified by IBA and
will be disqualified from such competition with immediate effect and will be
prevented to compete in further IBA owned and sanctioned competitions of
that gender. For this purpose, IBA will share such information with the relevant
internal bodies respecting its confidentiality. |  |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 16:19 - Aug 1 with 2023 views | positivity |
sitters/admin, you might want to change the title of this as per keno's suggestion, unnecessary and inaccurate |  |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 16:54 - Aug 1 with 1931 views | Reus30 |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 16:19 - Aug 1 by positivity |
sitters/admin, you might want to change the title of this as per keno's suggestion, unnecessary and inaccurate |
Oh my days, chillax.
He's not wrong.
That dude landed three punches on that woman's face. |  | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 17:00 - Aug 1 with 1918 views | positivity |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 16:54 - Aug 1 by Reus30 |
Oh my days, chillax.
He's not wrong.
That dude landed three punches on that woman's face. |
excellent work using "dude", '70s language for a '70s attitude. well played!
"chillax" is very centrist dad though, might want to edit that one out to fit the character | |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 17:47 - Aug 1 with 1844 views | DJR |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 15:11 - Aug 1 by LankHenners |
Thing is people are talking like Khelif has had a lifetime of knocking people for six every time she steps in the ring where in reality, from people who know the sport (and have boxed against her!), she's not even regarded as a particularly heavy hitter and has been beaten plenty of times. Today she caught the Italian boxer full in the face and stunned her which has happened countless times in boxing of all types.
Think this specific issue is just giving bad faith actors a chance to push a pretty nasty agenda and now this woman's getting all sorts of abuse for something that isn't her fault. |
It's certainly not a trans issue, and here's a link to an article questioning the scientific integrity of an IAAF ban on DSD athletes.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40318-019-00143-w |  | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 18:55 - Aug 1 with 1726 views | Kievthegreat |
This is a great example of a grey area where binary groupings of Male and Female clash with difficult technicalities of sex in the cases of intersex people.
However the news story is being very much presented as a "this man is obviously gonna beat a woman", ignoring the fact that Algerian boxer has been beat multiple times before, including in the World Championship and the last Olympics. She is not some unbeatable beast as some would want you to believe.
Take this exchange with one of those 9 other women who did beat her on her way to the World Title.
As a bonus, a humourous interaction:
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 18:58 - Aug 1 with 1712 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 13:58 - Aug 1 by chicoazul |
Women’s boxing should be banned. All women’s combat sports should be banned. Who possibly enjoys the sight of women fighting? |
“Women’s boxing should be banned”
Pretty sure I’ve seen you refer to other TWTD posters as authoritarian. | | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:09 - Aug 1 with 1688 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Why have the IOC sanctioned this to go ahead when one of the competitors was banned from fighting in the WBC. It seems incredibly irresponsible on the face of it. Usually the protections in amateur combat sports are more stringent than pro fights, it’s hard to see any justification for this.
Edit - it looks like she’s only fought at amateur level so will see how this story develops. [Post edited 1 Aug 2024 19:28]
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:15 - Aug 1 with 1664 views | jayessess |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 18:55 - Aug 1 by Kievthegreat |
This is a great example of a grey area where binary groupings of Male and Female clash with difficult technicalities of sex in the cases of intersex people.
However the news story is being very much presented as a "this man is obviously gonna beat a woman", ignoring the fact that Algerian boxer has been beat multiple times before, including in the World Championship and the last Olympics. She is not some unbeatable beast as some would want you to believe.
Take this exchange with one of those 9 other women who did beat her on her way to the World Title.
As a bonus, a humourous interaction:
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Indeed and for all the discussion of Imane Khelif being DSD or Intersex (or being a man), there's nothing in the public realm to confirm any of that, other than people inferring it from the Russian-controlled IBA disqualifying her (as I understand it, they didn't actually state what they disqualifed Khelif for).
Mostly what we're witnessing here is what's often downstream of much of the moral panic around trans issues - a kind of hysteria that ends up policing how "butch" all women are allowed to be.
Not to mention that Algeria is an incredibly hostile place for LGBT rights, where changing gender is illegal and the LGBT community face considerable violence. The idea the Algerian authorities would even accidentally send a man to compete in a women's boxing (for the glory of an amateur boxing quarter-final place in 2020!) is incredibly far fetched.
Of course the danger that this panic has likely placed Khelif in back in Algeria is all too real. [Post edited 1 Aug 2024 19:22]
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:33 - Aug 1 with 1583 views | monkeymagic |
I strongly suspect I am in a minority here but isn’t having a genetic advantage just ‘good fortune’? I don’t doubt every elite athlete works incredibly hard to reach the top but however much I trained, it wasn’t going to be enough. Isn’t it essentially a case of someone being gifted? | | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:40 - Aug 1 with 1560 views | Hiphopopotamus |
Well done Sitters on another thoughtful, accurate and sensitive thread title!!!!! You’re having a very special day today!!!!!! |  | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:41 - Aug 1 with 1551 views | Swansea_Blue |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 15:11 - Aug 1 by LankHenners |
Thing is people are talking like Khelif has had a lifetime of knocking people for six every time she steps in the ring where in reality, from people who know the sport (and have boxed against her!), she's not even regarded as a particularly heavy hitter and has been beaten plenty of times. Today she caught the Italian boxer full in the face and stunned her which has happened countless times in boxing of all types.
Think this specific issue is just giving bad faith actors a chance to push a pretty nasty agenda and now this woman's getting all sorts of abuse for something that isn't her fault. |
It certainly appears to have been hijacked by bad faith actors. These cases always are. That was the main line of the story on R5 Live. They were intimating that even the IBA have a political agenda here. There’s obviously more to it than I know, so Joe’s right there. But it seemed pretty clear that a lot wasn’t known and there are questions that need to be answered around the testing. That’s coming from people in the sport.
What I don’t understand is that if there were concerns over these boxers that were obviously known well before this Olympics, why weren’t they specifically tested ahead of these games and the process and results made available (not necessarily to the public, but at least to all the different parties)? It would have put an end to any speculation or confirmed they weren’t eligible. It’s worth noting they have been cleared to compete, but it all seems a bit cloak and daggers. |  |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:41 - Aug 1 with 1553 views | Hiphopopotamus |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 13:13 - Aug 1 by GlasgowBlue |
Call me old fashioned but somebody born biologically a man should not be beating the crap out of somebody born biologically as a woman for the gratification of a baying audience. |
And that’s certainly what’s happened in this instance!!!!! | | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:45 - Aug 1 with 1528 views | TresBonne |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 13:58 - Aug 1 by chicoazul |
Women’s boxing should be banned. All women’s combat sports should be banned. Who possibly enjoys the sight of women fighting? |
Dear me. This is a horrendous take. |  | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:45 - Aug 1 with 1530 views | Churchman |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 16:14 - Aug 1 by itfcjoe |
The IOC framework considers Inclusivity as the number 1 priority and fairness is just number 4 - what happened today is the competition they've designed. It isn't bad luck or unfortunate.
https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Human-Rights/IOC-
And a document required to tell you what language should be used - don't call it a DSD, say a Sex Variation etc
https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Games/Gender-Equality-i
Compare that to the IBA (Section 4.2)
https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/20240303-IBA-Technical-Competit
4.2. Eligibility on Gender
4.2.1. Boxers will compete against boxers of the same gender, meaning Women vs
Women and Men vs Men as per the definitions of these Rules.
4.2.2. To determine the gender, the Boxers can be submitted to a random and/or
targeted gender test which will be conducted by IBA in cooperation with the
selected laboratory personnel.
4.2.3. In case of adverse result, the Boxer will be immediately notified by IBA and
will be disqualified from such competition with immediate effect and will be
prevented to compete in further IBA owned and sanctioned competitions of
that gender. For this purpose, IBA will share such information with the relevant
internal bodies respecting its confidentiality. |
That’s fine. So regardless of catigory sati on etc, when somebody dies or winds up in a wheelchair with their dribble being wiped away for them, how will the IOC view that?
When nobody watches the grotesque any more, how will the IOC view that? Waving a term like ‘inclusivity’ around is warm, comfy, easy, tooth sucking progressive but misses the point. If they allow this to continue in any sport, it will kill that sport. In boxing, somebody will also die. Over dramatic? No. The footage is out there, the stupidity of this obvious.
Harrington says she’ll refuse to fight - right decision. Good for her. |  | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 20:55 - Aug 1 with 1392 views | Bury_St_Edmundson |
This has "deleted" written all over the thread
which is a shame as there are one or two very inciteful conversations.
Then the rest is abhorrent gender bait |  | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:09 - Aug 1 with 1345 views | Churchman |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 20:55 - Aug 1 by Bury_St_Edmundson |
This has "deleted" written all over the thread
which is a shame as there are one or two very inciteful conversations.
Then the rest is abhorrent gender bait |
Sorry, I think there is a conversation to be had. Abhorrent gender bait? I don’t see that. But if people do, that’s up to them.
Better than seeing somebody killed or critically injured in a boxing ring. No sport is worth that. | | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:14 - Aug 1 with 1322 views | Bury_St_Edmundson |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:09 - Aug 1 by Churchman |
Sorry, I think there is a conversation to be had. Abhorrent gender bait? I don’t see that. But if people do, that’s up to them.
Better than seeing somebody killed or critically injured in a boxing ring. No sport is worth that. |
I agree that there is no place in sport for that level of violence/injury
however the title of the thread alone is gender bait...
"A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer..."
no she didn't
I, 100% am enjoying the actual civilised conversation going on amongst the tw@ttery that is going on alongside it
shame we have to have the tw@ttery really though. | | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:20 - Aug 1 with 1310 views | Swailsey |
It’s a shame that Joe and others thoughtful replies will get lost when this is pulled. |  |
| Who said: "Colin Healy made Cesc Fabregas look like Colin Healy"? | We miss you TLA |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:21 - Aug 1 with 1307 views | Swansea_Blue |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:14 - Aug 1 by Bury_St_Edmundson |
I agree that there is no place in sport for that level of violence/injury
however the title of the thread alone is gender bait...
"A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer..."
no she didn't
I, 100% am enjoying the actual civilised conversation going on amongst the tw@ttery that is going on alongside it
shame we have to have the tw@ttery really though. |
The title of the thread is definitely wrong. Most replies in it seem civil enough though. I try and steer clear of these ones, as the impacts of eligibility seem to be seriously emotionally charged. I don’t know anyone affected, so don’t feel like it’s my place to comment. I feel for those accused of doing wrong if they haven’t (‘questioned’ athletes are treated like animals by the press). I also feel for the other competitors if they are at a competitive disadvantage by people gaming the system. | |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:23 - Aug 1 with 1299 views | Churchman |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:14 - Aug 1 by Bury_St_Edmundson |
I agree that there is no place in sport for that level of violence/injury
however the title of the thread alone is gender bait...
"A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer..."
no she didn't
I, 100% am enjoying the actual civilised conversation going on amongst the tw@ttery that is going on alongside it
shame we have to have the tw@ttery really though. |
The terms and the words can be played with until everybody agrees, is pc happy, otherwise or whatever. The fact of the matter is the fight should not have taken place and any woman who values their well-being should refuse to fight that person in my view.
Rather ironic that for a sport that requires ultimate courage the IOC took a cowards way out.
Edit: in last year’s world championships the two people were banned by the Boxing Federation. Were they right or wrong? [Post edited 1 Aug 2024 21:31]
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:35 - Aug 1 with 1251 views | MattinLondon |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:33 - Aug 1 by monkeymagic |
I strongly suspect I am in a minority here but isn’t having a genetic advantage just ‘good fortune’? I don’t doubt every elite athlete works incredibly hard to reach the top but however much I trained, it wasn’t going to be enough. Isn’t it essentially a case of someone being gifted? |
I agree with you. |  | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:50 - Aug 1 with 1207 views | DJR |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 19:15 - Aug 1 by jayessess |
Indeed and for all the discussion of Imane Khelif being DSD or Intersex (or being a man), there's nothing in the public realm to confirm any of that, other than people inferring it from the Russian-controlled IBA disqualifying her (as I understand it, they didn't actually state what they disqualifed Khelif for).
Mostly what we're witnessing here is what's often downstream of much of the moral panic around trans issues - a kind of hysteria that ends up policing how "butch" all women are allowed to be.
Not to mention that Algeria is an incredibly hostile place for LGBT rights, where changing gender is illegal and the LGBT community face considerable violence. The idea the Algerian authorities would even accidentally send a man to compete in a women's boxing (for the glory of an amateur boxing quarter-final place in 2020!) is incredibly far fetched.
Of course the danger that this panic has likely placed Khelif in back in Algeria is all too real. [Post edited 1 Aug 2024 19:22]
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And when issues arose in connection with Caster Semenya over a possible unfair advantage, controversy over trans issues played no part, in contrast to today with this issue giving the right wing media a field day, and the heading to this thread playing into the culture wars agenda.
EDIT: I see that Trump has waded into the issue.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/01/not-an-even-contest-italian-prim [Post edited 1 Aug 2024 22:10]
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:55 - Aug 1 with 1179 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:35 - Aug 1 by MattinLondon |
I agree with you. |
But we aren’t talking about genetics - the allegations are that she had elevated testosterone levels which is a hormone. Testosterone is also controlled in the men’s sport to avoid competitors using steroids to gain an advantage. This is also for the safety of the boxers, otherwise you may as well remove all testing and just let the sport turn into a load of juiced up monsters brawling.
At this stage though it’s still unclear how fair and proper those tests were so I’m going to reserve judgement until more is known. But I am disagreeing that IF the elevated testosterone is TRUE then no it is not some genetic advantage, and even if that was your view - breaks the rules of the sport which are there for the protection of competitors (and as someone that partakes in combat sports I feel quite strongly about). | | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 22:12 - Aug 1 with 1119 views | Churchman |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 21:50 - Aug 1 by DJR |
And when issues arose in connection with Caster Semenya over a possible unfair advantage, controversy over trans issues played no part, in contrast to today with this issue giving the right wing media a field day, and the heading to this thread playing into the culture wars agenda.
EDIT: I see that Trump has waded into the issue.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/01/not-an-even-contest-italian-prim [Post edited 1 Aug 2024 22:10]
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It wasn’t ’possible unfair advantage’. Nor is it right or left wing or a culture war as far as I’m concerned. I saw Semenya and her competitors relatively close up. It wasn’t right. It was ludicrous. Ok, so we want to be all correct and say ‘genetic luck’ and stuff and somebody strolls round winning every time by a mile - fine. Who cares. The sport becomes a waste of time and dies. Who cares. It doesn’t matter.
But in this instance and the one fighting tomorrow a woman could die or get seriously hurt. The result is a forgone conclusion, but that matters not a jot compared to the well-being of people.
It’s so simple. The Boxing Federation did all the work for them yet they still got it wrong. | | | |
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