| Olympic boxing controversy 12:28 - Aug 1 with 24117 views | SitfcB |
Didn’t end well.
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 10:31 - Aug 2 with 2178 views | tractordownsouth |
I don't have enough knowledge to comment on whether this is a fair sporting situation.
However, it is interesting to see the anti-trans brigade now furiously insisting that somebody with a vagina is actually a man. |  |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 11:05 - Aug 2 with 2102 views | baxterbasics |
Contributions like these really don't help explore the nuances of the discussion!
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 11:34 - Aug 2 with 2029 views | Ryorry |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 11:05 - Aug 2 by baxterbasics |
Contributions like these really don't help explore the nuances of the discussion!
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Doesn't deserve re-posting here then does it. |  |
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| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 12:01 - Aug 2 with 1953 views | Vegtablue |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 07:05 - Aug 2 by jayessess |
For the vast majority of the history of women's sports it wouldn't have even been a question - birth certificate and passport would have been examined, end of story. Presumably lots of women with some male genetic characteristics have competed in women's sports over the years without anyone really noticing or caring. They were just accepted as women with exceptional athleticism (it's the Olympics!).
There's a bit of hysteria here, Khelif's record is mixed, she's clearly not the Ivan Drago of 66kg women's amateur boxing. Angela Carini's not made any judgement other than that she got hit hard ( https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/01/angela-carini-abandons-fig and Khelif's next opponent is bullish about her chances.
What is happening is that Imane Khelif, born a woman, socialised as a woman, lived her whole life as a woman, in a country with very conservative politics around gender and sexuality, is now being attacked widely as a cheat and an imposter, as a man who beats up women, just for inhabiting the gender she was told she was from birth and excelling at sports. [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 7:12]
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Yes it's a sorry situation and some of the rhetoric being employed is comically exaggerated. Khelif's frame isn't dramatically more hulking or muscular than some of the other female boxers at the Olympics. One of our Brits lost controversially to Khadija Mardi earlier, who is probably in a different weight class to Khelif but a much more imposing physical specimen. Mardi towered over our girl and had significantly more developed shoulders and arms, to the extent I thought she may be intersex until headgear was removed. It is their masculine faces that have created this uproar let's be honest, rather than bodies resembling that of Sugar Ray Leonard.
On Khelif's boxing record, her overall record distorts the picture somewhat because she lost 6 of her first 9 fights. As she's grown, technically and physically, she has become a dominant though perhaps still not unconquerable force in her weight division. A stoppage rate of 13.5%, is high but not outrageous - our Amy Broadhurst has KO'd a higher percentage. Again it's her dominance in combination with her face that sparked the controversy; Biles, Ledecky and others are embraced for making their sports a procession.
And yet I think the case for treating DSD athletes differently is legitimate. Internal testes, male puberty adaptations.. maybe these advantages for competitive sport should be celebrated as genetic gifts, but they also run contrary to our classification of female sex. It's ironic to see the 'woke brigade' out in force on this, arguing that people likely born with vulvas and vaginas are actually men, but I don't think their inconsistencies undermine the scientific case for regulating or banning those with biologically mixed anatomy / traits. Caster Semenya competing as a gifted 46 XY 5-ARD athlete was untouchable to all gifted biologically female athletes. Only other 46 XY 5-ARD athletes assigned female at birth could threaten her, by which we mean genetic males with female-appearing or ambiguous external genitalia. That didn't feel right to me. |  | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 12:10 - Aug 2 with 1931 views | itfcjoe |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 12:01 - Aug 2 by Vegtablue |
Yes it's a sorry situation and some of the rhetoric being employed is comically exaggerated. Khelif's frame isn't dramatically more hulking or muscular than some of the other female boxers at the Olympics. One of our Brits lost controversially to Khadija Mardi earlier, who is probably in a different weight class to Khelif but a much more imposing physical specimen. Mardi towered over our girl and had significantly more developed shoulders and arms, to the extent I thought she may be intersex until headgear was removed. It is their masculine faces that have created this uproar let's be honest, rather than bodies resembling that of Sugar Ray Leonard.
On Khelif's boxing record, her overall record distorts the picture somewhat because she lost 6 of her first 9 fights. As she's grown, technically and physically, she has become a dominant though perhaps still not unconquerable force in her weight division. A stoppage rate of 13.5%, is high but not outrageous - our Amy Broadhurst has KO'd a higher percentage. Again it's her dominance in combination with her face that sparked the controversy; Biles, Ledecky and others are embraced for making their sports a procession.
And yet I think the case for treating DSD athletes differently is legitimate. Internal testes, male puberty adaptations.. maybe these advantages for competitive sport should be celebrated as genetic gifts, but they also run contrary to our classification of female sex. It's ironic to see the 'woke brigade' out in force on this, arguing that people likely born with vulvas and vaginas are actually men, but I don't think their inconsistencies undermine the scientific case for regulating or banning those with biologically mixed anatomy / traits. Caster Semenya competing as a gifted 46 XY 5-ARD athlete was untouchable to all gifted biologically female athletes. Only other 46 XY 5-ARD athletes assigned female at birth could threaten her, by which we mean genetic males with female-appearing or ambiguous external genitalia. That didn't feel right to me. |
On the counter to the 'woke brigade', I was trying to have a conversation last nigth about this on a forum I'm in, and someone replied to me saying 'she has a vagina, she is a woman' whereas if that exact phrase was said about a transman it would be seen as grossly offensive and transphobic but at that point I had to leave it as debate was going nowhere good!
I think the last paragraph sums it up very well though, sadly I don't see how they can compete fairly (and safely in some sports) with their biology, it's why the female category was created and the IOC has to move with the times with sex testing as it's gone past what it used to be before this was known - the genie is out of the bottle. |  |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 12:54 - Aug 2 with 1884 views | blueasfook |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 11:34 - Aug 2 by Ryorry |
Doesn't deserve re-posting here then does it. |
TWTD is a broad church where differing viewpoints are welcome. As long as not offensive I see no problem with people having different opinions on divisive issues. |  |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:10 - Aug 2 with 1826 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 12:54 - Aug 2 by blueasfook |
TWTD is a broad church where differing viewpoints are welcome. As long as not offensive I see no problem with people having different opinions on divisive issues. |
But it is offensive - it’s referring to her as a man. | | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:10 - Aug 2 with 1829 views | Ryorry |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 12:54 - Aug 2 by blueasfook |
TWTD is a broad church where differing viewpoints are welcome. As long as not offensive I see no problem with people having different opinions on divisive issues. |
So it was absolutely fine for me to have said what I did then. | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:15 - Aug 2 with 1809 views | blueasfook |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:10 - Aug 2 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
But it is offensive - it’s referring to her as a man. |
In some people's opinions they are a man. I haven't read too much about this but I understand the boxer in question has been banned previously for not meeting the sex criteria? | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:16 - Aug 2 with 1795 views | blueasfook |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:10 - Aug 2 by Ryorry |
So it was absolutely fine for me to have said what I did then. |
Yep. But you were implying differing opinions shouldn't be aired on here. Apologies if I misunderstood. | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:27 - Aug 2 with 1749 views | Kievthegreat |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:15 - Aug 2 by blueasfook |
In some people's opinions they are a man. I haven't read too much about this but I understand the boxer in question has been banned previously for not meeting the sex criteria? |
It's offensive and disrespectful. There may be questions around her eligibility for participation in a sporting context, a valid thing to discuss (although we don't have any real information and expertise). Constantly referring to her as a man though, is straight up d1ckhead behaviour. [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 13:27]
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:39 - Aug 2 with 1687 views | tcblue |
This could open up a whole load of crazy.
Genetical differences and advantages happens all over sport. I go on cycling hill climbs with a friend who has a genetic lottery win for his ceiling VO2 max; no amount of training would I be able to match it.
I can't help but think this particular issue has been blown up somewhat due to good old sexism and selective white knighting. Oh no, women shouldn't get punched hard, they're the fairer sex, etc. | | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:51 - Aug 2 with 1651 views | Hiphopopotamus |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 12:54 - Aug 2 by blueasfook |
TWTD is a broad church where differing viewpoints are welcome. As long as not offensive I see no problem with people having different opinions on divisive issues. |
“Cry more”. [a quote from the tweet Baxter posted and Blueas defended]
This is the best and most insightful opinion I’ve seen on this issue so far!!!! [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 18:06]
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 14:14 - Aug 2 with 1580 views | Ryorry |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:51 - Aug 2 by Hiphopopotamus |
“Cry more”. [a quote from the tweet Baxter posted and Blueas defended]
This is the best and most insightful opinion I’ve seen on this issue so far!!!! [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 18:06]
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Trolling on a serious issue like this just shows your lack of class. | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 14:20 - Aug 2 with 1556 views | Ryorry |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:16 - Aug 2 by blueasfook |
Yep. But you were implying differing opinions shouldn't be aired on here. Apologies if I misunderstood. |
Baxter, who postd the tweet, said "Contributions like these really don't help explore the nuances of the discussion!"
I said what I did based on the oft-stated view on here that ppl prefer discussions to be nuanced. | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 14:50 - Aug 2 with 1422 views | monkeymagic |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:39 - Aug 2 by tcblue |
This could open up a whole load of crazy.
Genetical differences and advantages happens all over sport. I go on cycling hill climbs with a friend who has a genetic lottery win for his ceiling VO2 max; no amount of training would I be able to match it.
I can't help but think this particular issue has been blown up somewhat due to good old sexism and selective white knighting. Oh no, women shouldn't get punched hard, they're the fairer sex, etc. |
I sense you might be onto something with para 3. Additionally, and I feel dreadful for saying this, but I suspect they’d be a little less less furore if she looked ‘more feminine’. This comment is not intentionally aimed at any TWTD posters, it’s an opinion based on numerous comments made elsewhere that deride her for “looking like a man”. | | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 14:52 - Aug 2 with 1409 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:39 - Aug 2 by tcblue |
This could open up a whole load of crazy.
Genetical differences and advantages happens all over sport. I go on cycling hill climbs with a friend who has a genetic lottery win for his ceiling VO2 max; no amount of training would I be able to match it.
I can't help but think this particular issue has been blown up somewhat due to good old sexism and selective white knighting. Oh no, women shouldn't get punched hard, they're the fairer sex, etc. |
Call me old fashioned (again) but who in their right mind thinks women should be punched hard? |  |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 15:06 - Aug 2 with 1381 views | Ryorry |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 14:52 - Aug 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Call me old fashioned (again) but who in their right mind thinks women should be punched hard? |
For goodness sake, it’s a sport that they’ve volunteered to go in for - its not as though they’re just walking along a street. | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 15:38 - Aug 2 with 1321 views | Kievthegreat |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 14:52 - Aug 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Call me old fashioned (again) but who in their right mind thinks women should be punched hard? |
I feel being punched in the face comes with the territory in boxing. | | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 15:46 - Aug 2 with 1285 views | Ryorry |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 15:38 - Aug 2 by Kievthegreat |
I feel being punched in the face comes with the territory in boxing. |
I think there's a case to be made for ruling out blows to the head now though. Seems ludicrous that whilst other sports like football & rugby are striving to reduce impact to heads, & now proven links between those & brain damage later in life if not at the time, boxing still actively encourages it. | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 16:07 - Aug 2 with 1241 views | Kievthegreat |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 15:46 - Aug 2 by Ryorry |
I think there's a case to be made for ruling out blows to the head now though. Seems ludicrous that whilst other sports like football & rugby are striving to reduce impact to heads, & now proven links between those & brain damage later in life if not at the time, boxing still actively encourages it. |
I agree with the sentiment of reducing and minimising blows to the head. We have so much more knowledge and information about concussions now that it seems bizarre to try and carry on like we don't know it causes brain damage and a myriad of other conditions.
However I don't think, in that discussion, the gender matters all that much which is what GB was implying. | | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 16:29 - Aug 2 with 1195 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 15:38 - Aug 2 by Kievthegreat |
I feel being punched in the face comes with the territory in boxing. |
If I wanted to see two women punching each other in the face then I'd stand outside the Savoy in Sauchiehall Street at 4am on a Sunday morning. | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 16:38 - Aug 2 with 1481 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 15:06 - Aug 2 by Ryorry |
For goodness sake, it’s a sport that they’ve volunteered to go in for - its not as though they’re just walking along a street. |
Clearly.
Not sure why anyone thinks its a gendered issue. Personally, I am baffled that humankind isnt moving beyond battering each other in the face as sport and is actually getting more brutal with UFC type stuff. However, once one accepts that as a thing, there is really no logic objection to women rather than men being punched in the mug. | | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 17:13 - Aug 2 with 1410 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 16:38 - Aug 2 by redrickstuhaart |
Clearly.
Not sure why anyone thinks its a gendered issue. Personally, I am baffled that humankind isnt moving beyond battering each other in the face as sport and is actually getting more brutal with UFC type stuff. However, once one accepts that as a thing, there is really no logic objection to women rather than men being punched in the mug. |
Yep legalised violence has never appealed to me. But if it has to be done let everyone who wants to do it participate. |  | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 17:15 - Aug 2 with 1405 views | baxterbasics |
I wonder if the only way through this now is to create 'testosterone' classes in boxing similar to weight. For the women's game, anyway. | |
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