| Olympic boxing controversy 12:28 - Aug 1 with 24080 views | SitfcB |
Didn’t end well.
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 17:32 - Aug 2 with 2296 views | itfcjoe |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 17:15 - Aug 2 by baxterbasics |
I wonder if the only way through this now is to create 'testosterone' classes in boxing similar to weight. For the women's game, anyway. |
Realistically testosterone production is either less than 50 or you a biological male and it’s 300+
It’s not really a sliding scale - it’s a tiny amount or lots |  |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 18:00 - Aug 2 with 2243 views | DinDjarin |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:10 - Aug 2 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
But it is offensive - it’s referring to her as a man. |
And when it comes to competing then they are correct. |  | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 18:04 - Aug 2 with 2221 views | monkeymagic |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 17:13 - Aug 2 by reusersfreekicks |
Yep legalised violence has never appealed to me. But if it has to be done let everyone who wants to do it participate. |
Agreed. What next, bar women from the army? |  | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 18:34 - Aug 2 with 2161 views | positivity |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 13:15 - Aug 2 by blueasfook |
In some people's opinions they are a man. I haven't read too much about this but I understand the boxer in question has been banned previously for not meeting the sex criteria? |
they aren't a man, it's plain wrong, disrespectful and offensive.
you can be banned for not meeting the sex criteria, but not be a man, it's not a binary world | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 18:42 - Aug 2 with 2141 views | Ryorry |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 16:07 - Aug 2 by Kievthegreat |
I agree with the sentiment of reducing and minimising blows to the head. We have so much more knowledge and information about concussions now that it seems bizarre to try and carry on like we don't know it causes brain damage and a myriad of other conditions.
However I don't think, in that discussion, the gender matters all that much which is what GB was implying. |
Pretty sure I said that gender doesn't matter! |  |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 19:00 - Aug 2 with 2085 views | Kievthegreat |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 18:42 - Aug 2 by Ryorry |
Pretty sure I said that gender doesn't matter! |
I think there's been some wires crossed. I agree with you that gender doesn't matter. The person who implied gender mattered was GB who I initially replied too and then referred back to in the last post. I think we're in broad agreement! |  | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 19:49 - Aug 2 with 2016 views | Ryorry |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 19:00 - Aug 2 by Kievthegreat |
I think there's been some wires crossed. I agree with you that gender doesn't matter. The person who implied gender mattered was GB who I initially replied too and then referred back to in the last post. I think we're in broad agreement! |
Agreed! | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 19:59 - Aug 2 with 1998 views | Trequartista |
Interesting thread here.
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 21:56 - Aug 2 with 1922 views | DanTheMan |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 19:59 - Aug 2 by Trequartista |
Interesting thread here.
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Whilst all of that may be factual, I'm just going to point out the various obvious bias that the site seems to have.
https://reduxx.info/ |  |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 22:15 - Aug 2 with 1900 views | Bigalhunter |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 14:52 - Aug 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Call me old fashioned (again) but who in their right mind thinks women should be punched hard? |
No one should really want to see that, apart from those that enjoy ‘foxy boxing’ as one fan of it described it on here today.
As a self-confessed ‘old fashioned’ male, how do you feel about women serving in the police force and armed forces? [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 22:48]
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 22:21 - Aug 2 with 1886 views | Kievthegreat |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 19:59 - Aug 2 by Trequartista |
Interesting thread here.
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Well one of the "facts" is verifiable BS. The thread addresses the suggestion of Russian corruption in the IBA and tried to dismiss it. It claims that "they (Imane and the Taiwanese women) were scheduled to fight no Russian boxers"
But the IBA results show that the Russian boxer lost to Imane on the 21st March and then was banned mid tournament 3 days later, just before the final.
Now that doesn't mean that the IBA is corrupt (although plenty of signs to that effect), however the issue with this thread is now that one of the "facts" that should be easiest to check because it's all public information as opposed to second hand statements or relating to confidential medical data we can't see, is easily proven to be false by even a rudimentary Google and checking the results on the IBA website!
Link to IBA results of the 2023 WC showing results for the 66kg category:
https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/66-3.pdf
IBA announcement from yesterday which clearly states when they made their decision on bans:
https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-associatio [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 22:23]
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 22:58 - Aug 2 with 1830 views | Trequartista |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 22:21 - Aug 2 by Kievthegreat |
Well one of the "facts" is verifiable BS. The thread addresses the suggestion of Russian corruption in the IBA and tried to dismiss it. It claims that "they (Imane and the Taiwanese women) were scheduled to fight no Russian boxers"
But the IBA results show that the Russian boxer lost to Imane on the 21st March and then was banned mid tournament 3 days later, just before the final.
Now that doesn't mean that the IBA is corrupt (although plenty of signs to that effect), however the issue with this thread is now that one of the "facts" that should be easiest to check because it's all public information as opposed to second hand statements or relating to confidential medical data we can't see, is easily proven to be false by even a rudimentary Google and checking the results on the IBA website!
Link to IBA results of the 2023 WC showing results for the 66kg category:
https://www.iba.sport/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/66-3.pdf
IBA announcement from yesterday which clearly states when they made their decision on bans:
https://www.iba.sport/news/statement-made-by-the-international-boxing-associatio [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 22:23]
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That looks to have been addressed in a further tweet - i don't know how to link reply tweets but it says ....
1) Lin never boxed a Russian.
2) Khelif beat multiple other people following the Russian, and disqualifying Khelif didn’t benefit the Russian in any way.
....
I think the point she was making was that no Russian athlete stood to gain from the disqualification. It is only the beaten semi-finalists that get their medals upgraded. She meant they fought no Russians from the semi-finals onwards (she did specify the semi-final results in the explanation).
You were quite correct though, she didn't make that clear at all. I have to be neutral and say that does look suspiciously like an oversight that was changed afterwards. But the overall points stands - no Russian benefitted from the disqualification, and the other 90% seems to stand up pretty well to scrutiny.
[Post edited 2 Aug 2024 23:02]
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 23:49 - Aug 2 with 1773 views | Kievthegreat |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 22:58 - Aug 2 by Trequartista |
That looks to have been addressed in a further tweet - i don't know how to link reply tweets but it says ....
1) Lin never boxed a Russian.
2) Khelif beat multiple other people following the Russian, and disqualifying Khelif didn’t benefit the Russian in any way.
....
I think the point she was making was that no Russian athlete stood to gain from the disqualification. It is only the beaten semi-finalists that get their medals upgraded. She meant they fought no Russians from the semi-finals onwards (she did specify the semi-final results in the explanation).
You were quite correct though, she didn't make that clear at all. I have to be neutral and say that does look suspiciously like an oversight that was changed afterwards. But the overall points stands - no Russian benefitted from the disqualification, and the other 90% seems to stand up pretty well to scrutiny.
[Post edited 2 Aug 2024 23:02]
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Technically they do gain something. Every boxer knocked out was promoted 1 position for ranking purposes. It's a small gain, but is one, although I can now see the additional tweet you're referring to. However they could just edit the original tweet. It's no good having a retraction/clarification which has significantly less visibility (26k impressions at time of posting) than the original statement (1.2m impressions) though.
One other thing I'd take issue is a tone one. They provide a question, give an answer and then add a commentary on it.
"1. "L & K are just women with high testosterone!"
Khelif and Lin were never tested for their testosterone levels.
The claims that they were disqualified from the 2023 Women's World Boxing Championship due to simple testosterone abnormalities were made by their respective national sporting bodies, who, obviously, have some motivation to lie here."
They can't help but add a narration about "motivation to lie" and supposition on at the end beyond the actual answer to the question. Some are worse, for question 6, they bring up the Court of arbitration and spend 4 paragraphs on hypotheticals about why they didn't want to appeal. Take this final paragraph,
"So why? Why did they not want the CAS to examine their tests? Why did they not want this information to be public? I think the reason is obvious."
That isn't reporting, that's editorialising. | | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 10:01 - Aug 3 with 1567 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 22:15 - Aug 2 by Bigalhunter |
No one should really want to see that, apart from those that enjoy ‘foxy boxing’ as one fan of it described it on here today.
As a self-confessed ‘old fashioned’ male, how do you feel about women serving in the police force and armed forces? [Post edited 2 Aug 2024 22:48]
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What an absolutely ridiculous question. Of course women should serve in the armed forces and the Police service. |  |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 10:42 - Aug 3 with 1487 views | DJR |
A slightly more balanced article from the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/aug/02/boxing-imane-khelif-lin-yu
Interestingly, the English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish amateur boxing associations aren't members of the IBA, having joined a rival organisation along with 33 other national associations.
As an aside, I am not sure whether they have expressed any view on the issue. |  | | |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 11:07 - Aug 3 with 1421 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 10:28 - Aug 2 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Let’s just see how this plays out before trying to score points. If she turns pro, and has elevated testosterone she will be banned from competing - and it won’t be anything to do with wokeness or culture wars. |
Weird downvote- I wonder what issue Reuser has with anti-doping rules. As a pro if she tested positive for elevated testosterone she’d be treated as any female athlete who had taken testosterone in order to gain advantage. There’s nothing culture wars around that - it’s fairness (one rule for all), safety (not only for the other competitor, but also discourages athletes taking harmful substances.
Most of the debate in this thread has focused on safety, and the fact that IOC has lest testing than the pro sport. There is a sensible precedent for those competing with elevated testosterone:-
“At the 2021 Tokyo Games, New Zealand weightlifter Laurel Hubbard became the first openly transgender woman to take part in an Olympic event.
To qualify, she had to keep her testosterone levels below 10 nmol per liter for at least 12 months.”
At the end of the day we’ll probably never know whether thr IBA testing regime was trustworthy, I think this issue here is that the IOC aren’t testing to the standards of the pro sport, which could have avoided all this one way or the other. If you compete in any sport, you have skin in the game and you don’t want testing to be dropped and for it to turn into a farce with people taking all kinds of substances. [Post edited 3 Aug 2024 11:10]
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 11:30 - Aug 3 with 1378 views | blueasfook |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 10:01 - Aug 3 by GlasgowBlue |
What an absolutely ridiculous question. Of course women should serve in the armed forces and the Police service. |
Not sure why you saw it worth your while responding to such obvious baiting GB. |  |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 11:39 - Aug 3 with 1343 views | Zx1988 |
I've only really skim-read the thread, but my two-penneth worth, for what it's worth:
There are always going to be those born with genetic/physiological differences, that will make them excel in a particular field or sport. There are probably far less controversial olympians who are at the top of their game for similar reasons to do with their genetic make-up. Michael Phelps, for example, was an utter physiological freak.
Some people are better at things than others. In particular, some people who participate in 'who can hit the other person the hardest' will be able to hit really hard.
If we say that these women's testosterone levels (similar to Caster Semenya) give them an unfair advantage, should we not also (for example) ban neuodivergent chess players, on the basis that their neurodivergence probably gives them one hell of an advantage?
And, ironically, there's probably a good chance that the noted female warriors in the Bible (Deborah, for example) could have been rather similar. Yet the same conservative Christians who are clutching their pearls about this situation would revere such women as examples of Strong Christian Women... [Post edited 3 Aug 2024 11:50]
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 12:17 - Aug 3 with 1290 views | Vegtablue |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 11:39 - Aug 3 by Zx1988 |
I've only really skim-read the thread, but my two-penneth worth, for what it's worth:
There are always going to be those born with genetic/physiological differences, that will make them excel in a particular field or sport. There are probably far less controversial olympians who are at the top of their game for similar reasons to do with their genetic make-up. Michael Phelps, for example, was an utter physiological freak.
Some people are better at things than others. In particular, some people who participate in 'who can hit the other person the hardest' will be able to hit really hard.
If we say that these women's testosterone levels (similar to Caster Semenya) give them an unfair advantage, should we not also (for example) ban neuodivergent chess players, on the basis that their neurodivergence probably gives them one hell of an advantage?
And, ironically, there's probably a good chance that the noted female warriors in the Bible (Deborah, for example) could have been rather similar. Yet the same conservative Christians who are clutching their pearls about this situation would revere such women as examples of Strong Christian Women... [Post edited 3 Aug 2024 11:50]
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This is all covered in the thread already, but a TL;DR summary for Semenya would be: she is genetically male, but shortage of hormone DHT disrupted the normal development of male genitalia before birth. She was born without a penis and with internal testes, which resulted in her being assigned female at birth and raised as a woman. Some 46 XY 5-ARD people are assigned male at birth, often presenting with a 'micropenis'. She experienced male puberty on account of her genetics, with male sex hormones increasing during this period for 46 XY 5-ARD people, whether assigned female or male. Considering her genetic advantages are the consequence of male biology, rather than non-sexual genetics, there is a case for treating her differently. | | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 15:44 - Aug 3 with 1190 views | Rozeeboy74 |
What's wrong with getting on with the hand you have been dealt? A 4ft 6in guy is never going to be a world class basketball player and a 7ft 2in guy is never going to be a top jockey. | | | |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 15:58 - Aug 3 with 1170 views | Zx1988 |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 15:44 - Aug 3 by Rozeeboy74 |
What's wrong with getting on with the hand you have been dealt? A 4ft 6in guy is never going to be a world class basketball player and a 7ft 2in guy is never going to be a top jockey. |
That's it, isn't it.
If this was a male boxer who'd been blessed with 7" height, a colossal reach, and a left hook like a traction engine, he'd be hailed a a generational talent. | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 16:17 - Aug 3 with 1139 views | itfcjoe |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 15:58 - Aug 3 by Zx1988 |
That's it, isn't it.
If this was a male boxer who'd been blessed with 7" height, a colossal reach, and a left hook like a traction engine, he'd be hailed a a generational talent. |
But this ignores why a women’s category exists | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 20:48 - Aug 3 with 988 views | Zx1988 |
Were there not similar allegations in 2012, that GB boxers were on the end of some slightly favourable refereeing decisions? | |
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| Olympic boxing controversy on 20:50 - Aug 3 with 984 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Olympic boxing controversy on 18:00 - Aug 2 by DinDjarin |
And when it comes to competing then they are correct. |
Obviously not in the case of the Olympics, otherwise she wouldn’t have been allowed into the competition. |  |
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