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If there was one sport that has to get this right, it is boxing. If the IBA tested them and found they didn't fit the criteria for the women's divisions, then why can the IoC allow the fight?
Whatever that criteria are, testosterone levels, chromosomes etc, then there must be a way of standardising it across all organisations.
What is disappointing is it conflates the struggle for all trans people because sport keeps messing it up.
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A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 13:58 - Aug 1 with 2200 views
Women’s boxing should be banned. All women’s combat sports should be banned. Who possibly enjoys the sight of women fighting?
In the spirit of reconciliation and happiness at the end of the Banter Era (RIP) and as a result of promotion I have cleared out my ignore list. Look forwards to reading your posts!
A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 13:54 - Aug 1 by Mookamoo
If there was one sport that has to get this right, it is boxing. If the IBA tested them and found they didn't fit the criteria for the women's divisions, then why can the IoC allow the fight?
Whatever that criteria are, testosterone levels, chromosomes etc, then there must be a way of standardising it across all organisations.
What is disappointing is it conflates the struggle for all trans people because sport keeps messing it up.
The IOC have spent too long talking about gender and not sex, and allowing decisions prior to this to individual sports governing bodies so the issue rears it's head more frequently than is necessary
Even now before this there was talk about combining the male and female categories of the shooting because there is no sex advantage - but why bother? Why offer less medals to people?
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 13:21 - Aug 1 by DanTheMan
Understandable. My primary point is the suggestion (in my mind, perhaps I've misread) that this is a trans person and not someone with a DSD.
If the other test was just chromosome based that certainly doesn't make someone trans.
As soon as you're in the intersex realm it gets incredibly difficult to assign biological sex.
I really don’t know Dan. I’m an ignoramus on this. What I know is what I see. In one of the posts is a clip of this person fighting a Mexican woman. Not only is it a complete waste of time, it’s also dangerous. If somebody is killed, what will the IOCs response be then?
I agree with other posters regarding boxing. It’s sort of had its day. To the 21st century eye it looks crude and all wrong, given the objective is to bust up an opponent.
Don’t get me wrong, I know it is tough and there is a discipline, skill, courage etc to it but it just doesn’t sit well with me.
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A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:02 - Aug 1 with 2150 views
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 13:21 - Aug 1 by DanTheMan
Understandable. My primary point is the suggestion (in my mind, perhaps I've misread) that this is a trans person and not someone with a DSD.
If the other test was just chromosome based that certainly doesn't make someone trans.
As soon as you're in the intersex realm it gets incredibly difficult to assign biological sex.
"As soon as you're in the intersex realm it gets incredibly difficult to assign biological sex."
Totally agree. However, the Olympics are as much about fair play and enjoyment (and safety) as well as inclusion of all. Women don't want to fight men and men don't want to fight women so I don't see why intersex people are not given their own category.
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A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:07 - Aug 1 with 2094 views
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:02 - Aug 1 by Cafe_Newman
"As soon as you're in the intersex realm it gets incredibly difficult to assign biological sex."
Totally agree. However, the Olympics are as much about fair play and enjoyment (and safety) as well as inclusion of all. Women don't want to fight men and men don't want to fight women so I don't see why intersex people are not given their own category.
I think that's a perfectly valid view to have, my very initial question was just on what basis we are calling the boxer a man. I had assumed it was a trans person and thought that was weird but it turned out to be a very grey area.
Sounds like they might need additional rules but it's very hard to draw the lines here.
Just as an example, if you look at Mya Lesnar, she (and I don't think I've seen any suggestion she's even got DSD) would be far stronger than 90% of the men on here.
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:07 - Aug 1 by DanTheMan
I think that's a perfectly valid view to have, my very initial question was just on what basis we are calling the boxer a man. I had assumed it was a trans person and thought that was weird but it turned out to be a very grey area.
Sounds like they might need additional rules but it's very hard to draw the lines here.
Just as an example, if you look at Mya Lesnar, she (and I don't think I've seen any suggestion she's even got DSD) would be far stronger than 90% of the men on here.
But it's the strength compared to your size and where you fit in categories, if Mya Lesner wanted to fight in combat sports she'd have to be going against people much taller than her because of her size and advantage would be smaller.
But if you are a 60kg female, vs a 60kg male then the power in body has massive differences due to testosterone and what it does to the body through puberty which irreversible.
This has been coming, when people have said fairness re Caster Semenya, Lia Thomas, Emily Bridges, Lauren Hubbard etc there has always been the certainty as it happens more and more through sports that it will come to combat sports and then real damage can and will be done.
We are just at where we have been walking towards in the name of inclusivity in women's sport when it should always have been about fairness. This is an IOC sanctioned bout of a male vs a female.
I think it's harder on a human level with DSD athletes, where they have been born with women's parts and family wouldn't know until later down the line and bringing them up etc, but the reality is biologically they are males if not men.
A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 13:49 - Aug 1 by LankHenners
Why I find some of the reporting/reaction to this whole thing a bit weird. You'd think no-one's ever been hit hard in boxing before the way some are going on.
Same. “Oh, it’s such a cruel sport”. Yes, yes it is!
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:17 - Aug 1 by itfcjoe
But it's the strength compared to your size and where you fit in categories, if Mya Lesner wanted to fight in combat sports she'd have to be going against people much taller than her because of her size and advantage would be smaller.
But if you are a 60kg female, vs a 60kg male then the power in body has massive differences due to testosterone and what it does to the body through puberty which irreversible.
This has been coming, when people have said fairness re Caster Semenya, Lia Thomas, Emily Bridges, Lauren Hubbard etc there has always been the certainty as it happens more and more through sports that it will come to combat sports and then real damage can and will be done.
We are just at where we have been walking towards in the name of inclusivity in women's sport when it should always have been about fairness. This is an IOC sanctioned bout of a male vs a female.
I think it's harder on a human level with DSD athletes, where they have been born with women's parts and family wouldn't know until later down the line and bringing them up etc, but the reality is biologically they are males if not men.
It's your last line that's where I really don't know how you deal with it without just saying no intersex people are allowed to compete.
Otherwise you get into the reverse example of someone who is biologically female (if we're using only chromosomes as the guide, which is iffy) but otherwise "looks" male for all intents and purposes. Do they get to compete with the women?
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 13:48 - Aug 1 by itfcjoe
Considering how tiny a percentage for the worlds population is DSD, it's very difficult to see with their successes in womens sport that they should be eligible for it.
In the 800m at Rio Olympics, all 3 medallists were DSD.
Biology wise, if you are effectively naturally able to produce high levels of testosterone - and have been able to at some point in your life (i.e. Transwomen who have gone through puberty, or DSD where they need to try and suppress it with medication) you simply have an unfair advantage in women's sport.
There is no way to make sport both inclusive and fair
This may be a naive, uneducated or possibly even offensive view (if so apologies, not intended) but what are the arguments against a third category for any people who don't naturally fit the conventional criteria for man/woman.
Surely recognising the issue and creating a third, properly supported, category is progress and it protects the integrity of all forms of athletic women's sport which, to my uneducated eye, looks like a shambles now. You can't break the system which works for 99%+ in order to accommodate a tiny fraction of people, especially when an alternative is available.
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:31 - Aug 1 by NthQldITFC
This may be a naive, uneducated or possibly even offensive view (if so apologies, not intended) but what are the arguments against a third category for any people who don't naturally fit the conventional criteria for man/woman.
Surely recognising the issue and creating a third, properly supported, category is progress and it protects the integrity of all forms of athletic women's sport which, to my uneducated eye, looks like a shambles now. You can't break the system which works for 99%+ in order to accommodate a tiny fraction of people, especially when an alternative is available.
I tend to agree, if there is any chance of an 'if' or 'potentially' surely the fighters health whatever sex should be the paramount concern.
Interesting piece on 5 Live about this a few minutes ago. It's seemingly not how it's being portrayed. The testing was undertaken a year before is being reported. The IBA didn't release any information about the alleged test, not the type nor any evidence of the results. Sounds like a minefield and one where it's probably best to not believe anything you see on social media until the facts come out (if they ever do).
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:27 - Aug 1 by DanTheMan
It's your last line that's where I really don't know how you deal with it without just saying no intersex people are allowed to compete.
Otherwise you get into the reverse example of someone who is biologically female (if we're using only chromosomes as the guide, which is iffy) but otherwise "looks" male for all intents and purposes. Do they get to compete with the women?
No idea, but I think initially the women's categories have been there to effectively equalise competition - I don't really know about the XX syndrome bar a cursory look at that. I guess like the other DSDs it is diagnosed later in life, but the difference would be that those people would likely not be 'elite athletes' at the time it is discovered but it's an interesting question.
But simply, those with XY chromosomes can't fairly compete in women's categories - and elite sport is a zero sum game - this interview after 800m final is heartbreaking, similar to those in the Eastern Bloc during 70s/80s and their state sponsored doping plans - it's depriving people of medals and careers
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:31 - Aug 1 by NthQldITFC
This may be a naive, uneducated or possibly even offensive view (if so apologies, not intended) but what are the arguments against a third category for any people who don't naturally fit the conventional criteria for man/woman.
Surely recognising the issue and creating a third, properly supported, category is progress and it protects the integrity of all forms of athletic women's sport which, to my uneducated eye, looks like a shambles now. You can't break the system which works for 99%+ in order to accommodate a tiny fraction of people, especially when an alternative is available.
The reality is what would be the point I guess, because the only winners will be transwomen or women with DSDs, opposed to Transmen and men with DSDs like the XX men Dan just mentioned. But it would work but seems a bit pointless for such a tiny percentage of the population.
Think a 3rd 'open category' can work for things like marathons
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:38 - Aug 1 by itfcjoe
No idea, but I think initially the women's categories have been there to effectively equalise competition - I don't really know about the XX syndrome bar a cursory look at that. I guess like the other DSDs it is diagnosed later in life, but the difference would be that those people would likely not be 'elite athletes' at the time it is discovered but it's an interesting question.
But simply, those with XY chromosomes can't fairly compete in women's categories - and elite sport is a zero sum game - this interview after 800m final is heartbreaking, similar to those in the Eastern Bloc during 70s/80s and their state sponsored doping plans - it's depriving people of medals and careers
I think you're right in that they need to do something, it's just the "what" that I genuinely don't have the answer for. There are so many variations that coming up with solid rules is a minefield. Glad I'm not the one who has to decide these things.
A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 14:35 - Aug 1 by Swansea_Blue
Interesting piece on 5 Live about this a few minutes ago. It's seemingly not how it's being portrayed. The testing was undertaken a year before is being reported. The IBA didn't release any information about the alleged test, not the type nor any evidence of the results. Sounds like a minefield and one where it's probably best to not believe anything you see on social media until the facts come out (if they ever do).
It is how it is being portrayed, both the fighters (there is another one from Chinese Taipei) have XY chromosomes so have effectively been through male puberty.
I don't like the framing of a 'man beating up a woman' that is sensationalist - but the IOC have willingly and knowingly walked into this situation with their rules which have not been fit for purpose or changed since 2016.
Much more is known now, they can claim as much as they like that it is incredibly complicated, and each different discipline needs to be looked at individually but it's simply not the case - going through male puberty gives you a life long and irreversible advantage in woman's sports. It's no more complicated than that
Inclusivity has trumped fairness and too many people didn't care when it was a running race, or a cycling race but now the reality of that stance is smacking them in the face
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 13:48 - Aug 1 by itfcjoe
Considering how tiny a percentage for the worlds population is DSD, it's very difficult to see with their successes in womens sport that they should be eligible for it.
In the 800m at Rio Olympics, all 3 medallists were DSD.
Biology wise, if you are effectively naturally able to produce high levels of testosterone - and have been able to at some point in your life (i.e. Transwomen who have gone through puberty, or DSD where they need to try and suppress it with medication) you simply have an unfair advantage in women's sport.
There is no way to make sport both inclusive and fair
I agree Joe, but there is a tonne of ignorance surrounding this topic. I haven't yet read anything credible to suggest the boxer is a trans athlete. For many on this thread (I would have thought including the OP), you're a man if you were born with a penis, a woman if you were born with a vagina (vulva). My assumption is that her external genitals met the 'female brief' from birth until I read otherwise, but sadly we can't safely or fairly accommodate DSD athletes in much of women's sport, particularly at elite level. It's even more pressing in combat sports.
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A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:55 - Aug 1 with 1712 views
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:48 - Aug 1 by Vegtablue
I agree Joe, but there is a tonne of ignorance surrounding this topic. I haven't yet read anything credible to suggest the boxer is a trans athlete. For many on this thread (I would have thought including the OP), you're a man if you were born with a penis, a woman if you were born with a vagina (vulva). My assumption is that her external genitals met the 'female brief' from birth until I read otherwise, but sadly we can't safely or fairly accommodate DSD athletes in much of women's sport, particularly at elite level. It's even more pressing in combat sports.
No, I'm almost certain that they are DSD athletes and as you say were born with a vagina - I can't find confirmation at the moment but the head of the IBA reported this to a media outlet last year.
I don't think people will dig into the weeds on this, when the headline looks as shocking as it is - it must be incredibly difficult for someone to discover they are intersex, but just doesn't work with sports as has been proven countless teams
A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 14:45 - Aug 1 by itfcjoe
It is how it is being portrayed, both the fighters (there is another one from Chinese Taipei) have XY chromosomes so have effectively been through male puberty.
I don't like the framing of a 'man beating up a woman' that is sensationalist - but the IOC have willingly and knowingly walked into this situation with their rules which have not been fit for purpose or changed since 2016.
Much more is known now, they can claim as much as they like that it is incredibly complicated, and each different discipline needs to be looked at individually but it's simply not the case - going through male puberty gives you a life long and irreversible advantage in woman's sports. It's no more complicated than that
Inclusivity has trumped fairness and too many people didn't care when it was a running race, or a cycling race but now the reality of that stance is smacking them in the face
Thing is people are talking like Khelif has had a lifetime of knocking people for six every time she steps in the ring where in reality, from people who know the sport (and have boxed against her!), she's not even regarded as a particularly heavy hitter and has been beaten plenty of times. Today she caught the Italian boxer full in the face and stunned her which has happened countless times in boxing of all types.
Think this specific issue is just giving bad faith actors a chance to push a pretty nasty agenda and now this woman's getting all sorts of abuse for something that isn't her fault.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand.
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 14:31 - Aug 1 by NthQldITFC
This may be a naive, uneducated or possibly even offensive view (if so apologies, not intended) but what are the arguments against a third category for any people who don't naturally fit the conventional criteria for man/woman.
Surely recognising the issue and creating a third, properly supported, category is progress and it protects the integrity of all forms of athletic women's sport which, to my uneducated eye, looks like a shambles now. You can't break the system which works for 99%+ in order to accommodate a tiny fraction of people, especially when an alternative is available.
You can't break the system which works for 99%+ in order to accommodate a tiny fraction of people
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 13:48 - Aug 1 by itfcjoe
Considering how tiny a percentage for the worlds population is DSD, it's very difficult to see with their successes in womens sport that they should be eligible for it.
In the 800m at Rio Olympics, all 3 medallists were DSD.
Biology wise, if you are effectively naturally able to produce high levels of testosterone - and have been able to at some point in your life (i.e. Transwomen who have gone through puberty, or DSD where they need to try and suppress it with medication) you simply have an unfair advantage in women's sport.
There is no way to make sport both inclusive and fair
Exactly right. Sport should be fair. I'm all for it being inclusive and there has to be a platform for all to play/train etc. But in competition it has to be fair.
If we ignore all the arguments even on the above fairness when we are getting into 'safety' there shouldn't even be a conversation. This and other fights I've seen are an absolute disgrace. Any fight has dangers but these single fights will cause lasting damage and will result in life limiting conditions and later life health issues. It is simply not acceptable.
Anyone arguing under the umbrella "equal rights" etc really needs to have a long think here. This is about people's health and goes beyond a fairness argument.
A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 12:46 - Aug 1 by Reus30
Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
Fights like a man, sounds like a man, it's a man.
I don't entirely agree with that but I can't help noting the irony of a phrase that some people use a lot on here to justify a position (i.e. if it quacks like a duck etc) now being used against them.
A woman boxer had to fight a man boxer… on 14:45 - Aug 1 by itfcjoe
It is how it is being portrayed, both the fighters (there is another one from Chinese Taipei) have XY chromosomes so have effectively been through male puberty.
I don't like the framing of a 'man beating up a woman' that is sensationalist - but the IOC have willingly and knowingly walked into this situation with their rules which have not been fit for purpose or changed since 2016.
Much more is known now, they can claim as much as they like that it is incredibly complicated, and each different discipline needs to be looked at individually but it's simply not the case - going through male puberty gives you a life long and irreversible advantage in woman's sports. It's no more complicated than that
Inclusivity has trumped fairness and too many people didn't care when it was a running race, or a cycling race but now the reality of that stance is smacking them in the face
Good points.
You're right, "inclusivity" isn't what it says on the tin when others don't want to be involved in it because it's not fair.
There are other factors involved too. If the Algerian fighter has been one of our girls who had left someone else crying, most of us would be crying sour grapes.
Perhaps a 3rd 'open category' is the answer, though everyone taking part would have to be given a medal.
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A boxer who was born a woman had to fight a boxer who was born as a man on 15:48 - Aug 1 with 1493 views
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